Stojanche Angelov

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  • indigen
    Senior Member
    • May 2009
    • 1558

    #31
    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
    Indigen, I am quite suprised that you would promote him given his obvious affection for traitors like Georgievski and Boskovski.
    That, IMO, is a very subjective take on what I have posted!

    This sub-forum is "News and Politics" and I don't see where I am really promoting him if I said what you quoted me for.

    Originally Posted by indigen
    Though the comments, which appear in an A1 news article today, by Stojanche Angelov about his continuing contact and friendship with former dpmne leaders is a serious concern (to me) and something to watch out for.
    Just to remind you, it is Igor Aleksandrov, Vangelovski and Dinevski, amongst others, that have said positive things about him and the Dostinstvo association.

    Secondly, one should not throw stones if they live in a glass house!

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      #32
      Originally posted by indigen View Post
      This sub-forum is "News and Politics" and I don't see where I am really promoting him if I said what you quoted me for.
      I do in the below comments:
      Are they afraid of him taking a political role/stand in near future either against capitulation proposals or in upcoming elections and garnering popular support?
      ....Stojanche Angelov, and may be an even better option to offer support to.
      Was that promotion, or optimism, perhaps?
      IMO, he could be a good rallying point for patriotic forces inside Macedonia because of his fame and reputation that stems from his record of military service and deeds in the 2001 armed conflict.
      IMO - meaning 'in my (your) opinion'. His idea of 'patriots' seems to include traitors like Boskovski and Georgievski.
      Secondly, one should not throw stones if they live in a glass house!
      I don't understand your analogy, please elaborate. What glass house? If anything, this is an example of the pot calling the kettle black, as you have often criticised people that have had a meaningful association with traitors. I dare say that Angelov's association with Boskovski and Georgievski is, at the very least, meaningful.
      Just to remind you, it is Igor Aleksandrov, Vangelovski and Dinevski, amongst others, that have said positive things about him and the Dostinstvo association.
      I am not doubting the positives about him and Dostoinstvo, but I am questioning the possible negatives (about him), so I see no reason for optimism just yet.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • indigen
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 1558

        #33
        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
        I do in the below comments
        Yes, you are being SUBJECTIVE and taking quotes out of different (older) posts in order to make a silly (and to me a nonsensical point). Why did you not make the point in the earlier posts if you thought that was the case but only make an issue after I provided a link to recent media information (which was also unknown to me before and for which I have made further comments that it IS a serious concern to me!). I really don't want to beat this dead horse issue much further as it is a big waste of time but I will make few points below.


        Lets take your subjective position and see where it leads if you consider Vangelovski, who has been a much stronger advocate than I have ever been (or will ever be since I don't support Ramkovist Macedonia in any way and am against validating it via participation in elections, unless it is with a clear program to dismantle it), who is now part of your MTOI. Does it mean that Vangelovski (also Aleksandrov and Najdovski, and all those who have a community or political connection with them) is (are) a supporter(s) and promoter (s) of a "dubious" character (who took a bullet in 2001 whilst on active service) and the organisation (now a political party in the making) he leads (or will lead)? What does that mean for your association with Vangelovski or anyone associated with Najdovski, Aleksandrov and the community organisations associated with them (which would include RTG, amongst many, many others)?

        Secondly, since the MTO has links to various organisations on its main page, e.g. UMD (and suggests that they are the Diaspora group for the USA!), are we to conclude that you support their political positions (and many of those groups also fly the Ventilator)?

        Lastly, I should remind you that you (and many others) have until recently considered Gruevski and Ivanov as "patriots" despite their alliance with UCK in forming a government and his connections with various Bugaromani (Dosta Dimovska, Miloshoski, Buneva, Tododrovski, amongst many others!) and the fact that they were/are upholding and implementing all the treasonous capitulation deeds of the past.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          #34
          Originally posted by indigen View Post
          Yes, you are being SUBJECTIVE and taking quotes out of different (older) posts in order to make a silly (and to me a nonsensical point).
          There is nothing 'silly' about it, it is an objective observation, and it's clear you have difficulties with accepting such observations when they're aimed at yourself.
          Why did you not make the point in the earlier posts.......
          Because I hadn't yet read about Angelov's affinity for Boskovski and Georgievski - coming from Angelov himself.
          Does it mean that Vangelovski (also Aleksandrov and Najdovski, and all those who have a community or political connection with them) is (are) a supporter(s) and promoter (s) of a "dubious" character (who took a bullet in 2001 whilst on active service)........
          Don't create fictions. I didn't call him a "dubious" character, they're your own words. No need to hide behind Tom, Chris or Igor, I will be discussing it with them shortly, but given that you are the one who has created and 'driven' this thread, I was addressing you. You are capable of speaking for yourself, aren't you?
          .......since the MTO has links to various organisations on its main page, e.g. UMD (and suggests that they are the Diaspora group for the USA!), are we to conclude that you support their political positions (and many of those groups also fly the Ventilator)?
          Thanks for highlighting this, it has been mentioned in the past. I thought it had already been removed. It will be done so. You are well aware that the MTO does not support the 'values' of the UMD. Are you prepared to take such firm action in reciprocation?
          I should remind you that you (and many others) have until recently considered Gruevski and Ivanov as "patriots".......
          Just like many others in the past considered people like Georgievski as a 'patriot' in the past? Again, don't be the pot calling the kettle black, I have no doubt you too supported such people in the past prior to their treachery becoming common knowledge. People learn and develop their knowledge at different stages, there is nothing wrong with that so long as they realise the truth after discussing the matter(s) with more informed individuals. A lot of that has taken place at the MTO. In this instance, I am demonstrating foresight and being pre-emptive in my criticism. As a Macedonian I am no longer prepared to 'wait' until people are revealed as traitors. It has happened too many times already. I remain reserved until further clarification is brought forth from and about Angelov.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • indigen
            Senior Member
            • May 2009
            • 1558

            #35
            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            There is nothing 'silly' about it, it is an objective observation, and it's clear you have difficulties with accepting such observations when they're aimed at yourself.

            Because I hadn't yet read about Angelov's affinity for Boskovski and Georgievski - coming from Angelov himself.
            Well, I was the in the same boat as well, or even worse, and going on the advice of Aleksandrov and Dinevski, as you can see below. My latest postings clearly, in my view, can not and should NOT be construed as promotion or a open-ended support.

            Though the comments, which appear in an A1 news article today, by Stojanche Angelov about his continuing contact and friendship with former dpmne leaders is a serious concern (to me) and something to watch out for.

            Secondly, I used terms such "in my opinion", "could be" and "may be", which are speculative in nature and should be viewed as such and there is no need to make a big song and dance about what I said/wrote.

            Just like many others in the past considered people like Georgievski as a 'patriot' in the past?
            I supported DPMNE for its national program and the positions it took on critical national issues. I considered Georgiveski a sell out from 1995 onwards (his coming out OPENLY as a BUGAROMAN!) and was never that impressed with him before that but his role was also covered up by Zmejkovski and Co, who were trying to lay ALL the blame for the spreading of Bulgar/oman propaganda and the infiltration of anti-Macedonian cadres in the party at Dosta Dimovska's feet. I aslo absolutely never supported "dpmne" after the Bugaroman putch in 1997!

            Secondly, if "Dostoinstvo" is accommodating to the "Ramkoven dogovr", I will see them as nothing more than another Ramkovist opportunist gang.

            Just like many others in the past considered people like Georgievski as a 'patriot' in the past?
            Why did you have to wait so long to consider them as sell outs?

            Again, don't be the pot calling the kettle black, I have no doubt you too supported such people in the past prior to their treachery becoming common knowledge.
            It was common knowledge in 1995, and earlier for more informed Macedonians, that Georgievski was a Bugaroman. Waiting for him to obtain a BG passport might be the least of the evidence for his being a Bugaroman, IMO.

            People learn and develop their knowledge at different stages, there is nothing wrong with that so long as they realise the truth after discussing the matter(s) with more informed individuals. A lot of that has taken place at the MTO.
            If that is the case, why does that not apply to myself as I clearly stated I did not know anything about his links with Boshkovski when you asked me in the earlier posts and I was as much in the dark as you were and was only going along with views held by Aleksandrov and Dinevski?

            -------------
            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            Does that mean that Dostoinstvo will put forth a candidate to run in the coming elections?
            I would say that the answer is a yes and it should be (many) CANDIDATES.

            We covered it a bit on the following topic:
            it is circa a half year ago that I saw on youtube some speeches of the leader of a "new" party...unfortunately I forgot the name of that "REAL" patriotic national party. did someone of u know the name of that party ?


            The below is the relevant part from a post on the above question:

            Dostoinstvo partija: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...ов

            Dostoinstvo is an interesting development, one which I said a few months back that it could develop into a party and that is why dpmne were harassing their leader, Stojanche Angelov, and may be an even better option to offer support to. Though the comments, which appear in an A1 news article today, by Stojanche Angelov about his continuing contact and friendship with former dpmne leaders is a serious concern (to me) and something to watch out for.

            Ангелов: „Достоинство“ станува партија
            Недела, 20 Март 2011

            Членовите на Централното собрание на здружението на припадниците на безбедносните сили „Достоинство“ одлучија дека треба да формираат политичка партија и да учесувуваат на предвремените парламентарни избори.


            stojance_angelov

            Во 2001 година ја браневме Македонија од вооружените албански екстремисти, сега сме подготвени да ја браниме Македонија од политичарите кои не донесоа до дното, изјави претседателот на „Достоинство“, Стојанче Ангелов.

            Според него, предлогот за формирање политичка партија на Извршниот одбор го прифатиле повеќе од 96 проценти од членовите на Собранието на здружението, на денешното тајно гласање. Согласно резултатите од ова гласање, новоформираната партија ќе настапи самостојно на следните евентуални предвремени парламентарни избори.

            Во текот на наредната седмица, како што велат од „Достоинство“, ќе започне процедуралната постапка за формирање на партијата.

            http://www.kurir.mk/makedonija/vesti...tanuva-partija
            -----------
            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            What are the chances of that taking place, Indigen? Also, what do you know of the (if any) relationship between Angelov and Boskovski?
            I have no idea on both counts and I am just speculating hypothetical propositions.

            IMO, he could be a good rallying point for patriotic forces inside Macedonia because of his fame and reputation that stems from his record of military service and deeds in the 2001 armed conflict. I also take note that I. Aleksandrov and A. Dinevski (see below) - being two activists whose views and deeds I highly respect - have said positive things about him, which gives me an extra verification of this man's patriotic character. But if they cut off his sickness/disability benefits and put the squeeze on his extended family, life could become tough for him existentially and thus a serious impediment to any effective political mobilisation against the establishment (statuquo).s


            СРАМОТА!!!
            Полициски инспектори го „прегледувале“ Ангелов


            [....]



            # on ноември 13, 2010 at 20:57 alexandro Said:

            Навистина е чест и задоволство да го познаваш. Исто како и јас!
            Уште повеќе кога ја знаеш неговата храброст и пожртвуваност во борбата. Единствен генерал кој во битките одеше напред пред своите војници, а не позади нив како многу други кои денес се удираат во гради!


            Осумдесет постотен инвалид кој тешко беше ранет во битката за Арачиново денес да доживува ваков третман е злочин.
            А нашето молчење соучесништво во него!

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #36
              Originally posted by indigen View Post
              My latest postings clearly, in my view, can not and should NOT be construed as promotion or a open-ended support.
              I didn't say anything about open-ended support.
              Secondly, I used terms such "in my opinion", "could be" and "may be", which are speculative in nature and should be viewed as such and there is no need to make a big song and dance about what I said/wrote.
              Like I said earlier, I made an observation. The only person that is singing and dancing is yourself, in response to that observation.
              Why did you have to wait so long to consider them as sell outs?
              Because in the past I was not adequately informed of the situation. When their treachery became apparent, either through outward examples or logical assessment, I would cease my 'advocacy'. This is usually the way it goes for most people, and the reason why I am saying let's do our research first before we suggest or present anybody in a favourable manner.
              If that is the case, why does that not apply to myself as I clearly stated I did not know anything about his links with Boshkovski when you asked me in the earlier posts ......
              It does apply to yourself, but you became defensive. It wasn't necessary. If it was anybody else other than a veteran from the conflict of 2000-2001 you would not have been inclined in the same way.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • indigen
                Senior Member
                • May 2009
                • 1558

                #37
                SoM, the following are a few posts of mine from other topic threads that will illustrate where I stand on the "Braniteli", the politcs of the time, the Ramkovist reality of today and on the specific issue of Sojanche Angelov and his apparent relationships to Boshkovski and Georgievski:

                Originally posted by Volk View Post
                What fantasies are you people dreaming about?

                Lets Re-cap who was running the show at the time:

                Crvenkovski
                Georgievski
                Buckovski
                Trajkovski
                Boskovski

                what heroics do you expect from such garbage?
                Crvenko, Bucko and Boskovski (was there but not as interior minister) came to the fore in beginning of May 2001 when the "Unity Government" was formed to implement "The Trajkovski Plan" (aka Ramkoven!) and UCK showed up at Tanusevci around 20 January 2001, though it was common knowledge they operated in RM long before that (In fact MVR knew they had bases there but ignored their existence for years!). Thus it was LjuBcho Georgievski and Dosta Dimovska (who were trying to Bulgarise Macedonians through the years of 1999-2000), partnered by Dzhaferi and Tachi (plus puppet President Trajkovski), that was running the scene when the UCK opened up action and it would be foolish to assume (or expect) that they would fight for the Macedonian Cause! Therefore, Mr Volk, I am in partial general agreement with your above deductions!

                But we now have a DILEMA - "BRANITELI" in LOYAL SERVICE to proven TRAITORS! Come back to me on this OXYMORON!


                ------------

                Originally posted by Volk View Post
                Indigen, what is more sad is Georgievski and Boskovki are now running in the elections, whilst Crvenkovski is leading the 'opposition', then people wondered why I preferred VMRO... Now it is clear there is absolute no choice in the political parties... Even the 'radicals' are not as radical as they make out to be...
                It would be worthwhile for those that were too young (or not interested then) to adequately observe the political scene in the run-up to the 2002 MK elections to go into online news archives and find out how many "Anti-Ramkovist" political parties sprung up and campaigned strongly on that platform and how NOW (and mostly since 2006) they are ALL MUTE on the issue or supporting and IMPLEMENTING the Ramkoven. Even Todor Petrov (and SMK) is (are) very MUTE these days. I am hard-pressed to see any political party or organisation in Mk that has an anti-Ramkovist platform today.

                Mi izgleda deka Makedoncite vo RM si legnale na brashnoto i si ja prifatile sudbinata i chlenstvoto vo NATO i EU mnozhina go gledaat kako mozhnost za beganje od vistinata - zhalno!

                http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...t=5182&page=16
                Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                Indigen,

                I think Dostoinstvo has a lot of potential, but it needs ideological leadership which it is currently lacking. This is something the Australian Macedonian community could and should provide.
                I don't know if AMC has any organised capacity to do that but certainly would help if what you say is correct. But maybe others (without naming names) from Mk could (should) be considered as an option to offer some ideological direction.

                Secondly, Stojanche Angelov should certainly cut his ties with some of his former and current friends (Georgievski and Boshkovski in particular!) if he (Stojanche) is a genuine patriot.


                it is circa a half year ago that I saw on youtube some speeches of the leader of a "new" party...unfortunately I forgot the name of that "REAL" patriotic national party. did someone of u know the name of that party ?
                Last edited by indigen; 04-01-2011, 01:44 AM.

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  #38
                  No problem Indigen, thanks for the above information, despite the perception of my observation it was not my intent to take a shot at you.
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • indigen
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2009
                    • 1558

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    No problem Indigen, thanks for the above information, despite the perception of my observation it was not my intent to take a shot at you.
                    Lets leave at that and no hard feelings.

                    I also would like to mention that I had not listened to the interview that Ico Najdovski conducted with Stojanche Angelov when I first posted the YouTube clip in this thread and the following discussion that ensued between us. Having listened to the interview (and I urge others to do the same), I was quite impressed with his political stance on many key issues of concern to Macedonians and I would certainly rate that as better than all the mainstream political options in Mk.

                    Comment

                    • aleksandrov
                      Member
                      • Feb 2010
                      • 558

                      #40
                      I don't want to get too deeply into this debate, for very good reasons, but let me just say that the "respect and friendship" that Angelov speaks of in his public statement should not be overstated as being of substantive policy significance. Angelov disagrees with the particular actions by Georgievski and Boskovski that offend us as strongly as we do. But he also happens to have fought for and taken bullets for Macedonia under their command, when they were struggling against the majority in their own Government to provide the police and military forces with the support that they needed to perform their duties. How far they persevered in the long term, and what their opinions are on other aspects of the Macedonian cause, is another matter, which goes a long way in explaining why he would not join either of their new parties or form a coalition with them.

                      I currently have more hope in Angelov than in any politician or political activists in the Republic of Macedonia, in addition to and apart from valuing his personal friendship. That does not mean that I completely agree with everything he does or says. I do not give blanket or unlimited support to anybody, including my most loved ones.

                      Personally, like Indigen, I hold a very strong view is that in order to advance the Macedonian cause, we need to reject and tear down the vassal, 'ramkovist' political system in the Republic of Macedonia, rather than become part of it. Angelov may well agree with my sentiment, but we have differing perspectives on when and how that can and should be done. Since he is the one in the centre of the fire, and I trust his personal integrity, I would rather give him the benefit of doubt by supporting him as much as reasonable until one of us is proven wrong, than let him make his attempt at fighting the system from within and not only fail, but lose the morale required to persevere to a different level of struggle due to a perceived lack of support and appreciation for his efforts and sacrifices.
                      All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

                      https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        #41
                        Aleksandrov, thanks for commenting on this topic, it lends weight to Indigen's earlier assertions given that it is now coming from an individual that knows Angelov on a personal level. He could be a symbolic leader of Macedonians in Macedonia, so long as he doesn't lose his integrity the way some of his associates have. I am sure many people will be watching closely.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • lavce pelagonski
                          Senior Member
                          • Nov 2009
                          • 1993

                          #42
                          Сојуз за иднината (Traitors united)

                          Сојуз за иднината - YouTube


                          Опозицијата се здружува за како што велат да ја сменат власта. Новиот опозициски фронт овој пат зајакнат со уште 4 партии ЛДП, ВМРО-НП, Обединети за Македонија и Достоинство, го носи велат симболичното има „Сојуз за иднината".
                          Стравот на Атина од овој Македонец одел до таму што го нарекле „Страшниот Чакаларов“ „гркоубиец“ и „крвожеден комитаџија“.

                          „Ако знам дека тука тече една капка грчка крв, јас сега би ја отсекол целата рака и би ја фрлил в море.“ Васил Чакаларов

                          Comment

                          • DraganOfStip
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2011
                            • 1253

                            #43
                            Branko and Ljubco are saving Macedonia from Grujo.May God help us all...
                            ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                            ― George Orwell

                            Comment

                            • lavce pelagonski
                              Senior Member
                              • Nov 2009
                              • 1993

                              #44
                              The fb page of the traitors
                              Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.
                              Стравот на Атина од овој Македонец одел до таму што го нарекле „Страшниот Чакаларов“ „гркоубиец“ и „крвожеден комитаџија“.

                              „Ако знам дека тука тече една капка грчка крв, јас сега би ја отсекол целата рака и би ја фрлил в море.“ Васил Чакаларов

                              Comment

                              • Vangelovski
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 8531

                                #45
                                WTF!? When is this from? What is Stojanco Angelov doing there?
                                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

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