Common Macedonian Soldier Proud NOT To Be Greek

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  • The LION will ROAR
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 3231

    #46
    Originally posted by Voltron View Post
    Neither is the sky blue, its an array of many different particles coming down the Earth's stratosphere that makes it look that way.
    "WOW" you must be a speed reader...or are you one of those Greek myths you guy's talk about "super Greek"
    The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

    Comment

    • The LION will ROAR
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2009
      • 3231

      #47
      Originally posted by Voltron View Post
      Here is a Ring. Said to be from the Thracians. Now here is a good example. Greek letters being used to show evidence of their language. Just like Cyrillic is used today.





      Anythng similar in Macedonia ? Anything ?

      Illyrians, same thing for them. There is evidence to show for them. Even the Southern Hellenised ones. Their religion or Gods is another example. Again, I ask. What about Macedonians ? Even Rome had their latinised versions of Greek Gods but it was still Roman. Again, Where is anything to show for Macedonians? Its the lack of evidence that is trying to be used as proof while at the same time saying anything Greek related is on the basis of pure influence. I dont buy it. Sorry.
      Not quite sure what your getting at..?
      Are you claiming that Thracians and Illyrians language was Greek..?

      Are you also claiming that Macedonians worshipped Greek Gods..?

      Please be more specific
      The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

      Comment

      • Voltron
        Banned
        • Jan 2011
        • 1362

        #48
        Not quite sure what your getting at..?
        Are you claiming that Thracians and Illyrians language was Greek..?

        Are you also claiming that Macedonians worshipped Greek Gods..?
        No, not at all, never said Illyrian or Thracian language was Greek. In the Thracian example, its Greek letters but it in Thracian Language.

        Is there a simlar example for Macedonians ?

        Regarding your second question. The answer is yes.

        Comment

        • Agamoi Thytai
          Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 198

          #49
          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          As can be clearly seen, there were already a number of Hellenic colonies already in existence, so trade, commerce, cultural and religious interaction in the Greek language was not unfamiliar in Asia. The Macedonian campaign merely gave pencil-pushers an avenue to disseminate the Greek language. It was a by-product, and not a specific intention.
          Leaving aside the Western Mediterranean (mainly South Italy and Sicily) regions that are irrelevant to our topic,since Alexander's empire was on the Eastern Mediterranean and in the Middle East,all these Greek colonies were on Mediterranean (or the Black Sea) coasts.However the core of the Persian empire (whose territory formed most of Alexander's Asiatic conquests) was the hinterland of Middle East and Asia Minor,not the maritime regions of modern Turkey,Israel,Syria and Lebanon.So how possible and realistic seems the scenario that people who lived in modern Sivas,Erzurum,Ankara,
          Baghdat,Vasra,Teheran e.t.c,could be influenced by Greek language and culture so much that they started learning Greek?Only because there were some 20-30 Greek colonies houndreds of miles away?This may have happened in the vicinity of these colonies but not in such distances.By that logic,even the Celts should be fluent in Greek,or the Gauls who raided Greece in 3th BC century,and the ancient Germanic tribes too,their distance from the nearest Greek colonies,i.e on the coast of modern Southern France was no longer than that of Babylon,Sousa and Persepolis from Cyprus or the Asia Minor coast!
          "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
          Polybius, Histories, 9.35

          Comment

          • The LION will ROAR
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 3231

            #50
            Originally posted by Voltron View Post
            No, not at all, never said Illyrian or Thracian language was Greek. In the Thracian example, its Greek letters but it in Thracian Language.

            Is there a simlar example for Macedonians ?

            Regarding your second question. The answer is yes.
            On the issue that Macedonian language did not exist, There is a french book "Lexique Macedonian from 16 century" which inside the auther found many Greek documents, writen in Greek, but the greeks could not understand the meaning of these words. The auther changed the greek letters to latin and what he discovered is pure macedonian language we speak today.

            interview with Macedonian president ivanov which is spoken in Macedonian but subtitled in english on this matter
            Gorge Ivanov-za imeto
            YouTube - Gorge Ivanov-za imeto

            Vocabulary Elements in Early Macedonian Lexicons




            It has been recorded that six proto Slav Venetic inscriptions have been found in Dura-Europos, a city founded by Alexander the Great in the Syrian desert. These inscriptions provide evidence that Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonian people may very well have been Veneti. If this proves to be the case, then we the Modern Macedonian people have every justifiable reason to reclaim our own patrimony and our rightful place in the world.
            It has been recorded that six proto Slav Venetic inscriptions have been found in Dura-Europos in the Syrian desert, a city founded by Alexander's lieu

            Title: THE VENETIC INSCRIPTION Es 120 ON THE CUP OF “SCOLO DI LOZZO”, Author: Anthony Ambrozic, Pavel Serafimov, Giancarlo Tomezzoli, pp. 168-173. Proceedings of the Fourth International Topical Conference, ANCIENT INHABITANTS OF EUROPE, Ljubljana, Jutro, 2006. Abstract Reputedly the oldest Venetic inscription, Es 120 was found in 1931 in locality “Scolo di Lozzo” near Este (Veneto – Italy). The inscription dates to not later than the middle of the 6th century BC. A. Marinetti divides the wording of the inscription as follows: ALKOMNO METLON ŚIKOS ENOGENES VILKENIS HORVIONTE DONASAN. According to her translation three offerors named Sikos, Enogenes and Vilkenis are making a votive offering to the Dioscuri (Alkomno) at their temple, which allegedly was located near the locality of Lozzo. The inscription is in fact a palindrome starting at the bottom of the inscription. The palindrome’s first line can be read as follows: NA SAN ODET NOI VROH SI NE KLI VSE NEG ON E S OKI SNOL TEMON MOK LA and is followed by its inverse counterpart running downward: AL KOM NOMETL ON ŚI KOS E NOGE NE SVIL K E NIS HOR VION T E DONASAN. The first line can be translated as: COVERED FOR SLEEP, MAY THE DEVIL NOT HAVE EVERYTHING GERMINATE FOR HIM, BUT LET HIM RATHER WITH THE EYES SUSPEND AS THREAD ON THE LOOM THE DARK MOISTURE; whereas the inverse counterpart can be loosely translated as: BUT TO WHOM DID HE PILE UP A PIECE? MAY THE ONE OFFERED TO YOU, FROM BELOW UPWARD TWINING, NOT COME TO HARM! The palindrome in its first line is a hopeful admonition to the dark powers to keep a seed-containing basin free of mold. In its second line it provides inside the message the indication of how the inscription should be read, i.e. from below upward. The astounding close similarity of the words in the palindrome with the words of contemporary literary Slovene language, Slovene dialects and other Slavic languages indicates that Slavic was incredibly uniform and undiversified in the past, so that Venetic, Slavenetic, Old Early Slavic, Old Phrygian, Dura Europos Macedonian, and early Thracian were one and the same language.

            Also:

            It appears that the Greeks are finding the Dura-Europos inscriptions difficult to explain and continue to insist that the Ancient Macedonian language was Greek. In spite of physical evidence to the contrary, they insist that the Ancient Macedonians spoke a Greek dialect.

            Past Greek governments and institutions have invested considerable resources and effort in archeological and linguistic research and have yet to produce a single shred of evidence that identifies that exclusive "Greek dialect" which the Ancient Macedonians allegedly spoke. How is it that Macedonia rose to power, conquered the entire known world, produced brilliant generals like Philip II and Alexander III and yet did not manage to leave a single trace of its language for us to find?

            It is time for the Greeks to either produce physical evidence of this illusive dialect or confess that there is no such "Greek dialect" and that the Ancient Macedonian language is the root of the Modern Macedonian language like the Dura-Europos inscriptions have revealed.
            The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

            Comment

            • The LION will ROAR
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2009
              • 3231

              #51

              The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

              Comment

              • fyrOM
                Banned
                • Feb 2010
                • 2180

                #52
                Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                Where is anything to show for Macedonians? Its the lack of evidence that is trying to be used as proof while at the same time saying anything Greek related is on the basis of pure influence.
                You know Voltron I am not the smartest guy in the world but I find myself amazed when supposedly intelligent people are amazed by what supposedly less intelligent people do.

                Up until very recent times some old people didn’t know how to read or write and used their fingerprint on documents like a signature so is it really strange to hear of people centuries ago or even millennia ago being illiterate.

                Today we take reading and writing for granted…doesn’t everybody do it…and we even take ones skill in reading and writing as a measure of ones intelligence yet in our zeal for intelligence some people overlook other traits of intelligence and falsely label others as unintelligent. Is it not horses for courses. If my plane crashed and I was lost in the desert I might find it difficult to find food and water yet aboriginal tribesmen survive in some of the most inhospitable parts of Australia for 40000 years. I imagine a person…someone like a lawyer or professor…totally parched with thirst lying in the sun dieing and in his dire desperation praying for someone to come along and piss on him and his intelligence just so he might have a drop and not die.

                The aborigines told their history through paintings and oral recitation of stories handed down one generation to the next for 40000 years without a single letter let alone word written. They are not the only society in the world to be illiterate so why is it so hard to accept the lack of written evidence does not negate the existence of a large society.

                When the aborigines met white people they did not instantly create an alphabet to compete with the white man. Even if the aborigines were able to subdue the white settlers and become there masters I doubt they would have rushed to develop an alphabet and probably would have used English seeing it was the most common language used by their captives even though their native tong could have been English by some and Scottish welsh or Irish…all completely different from English…by others. A decade later the aboriginal empire is defeated. What should people of the future make of ancient coins monuments and books…that the aborigines were English or maybe they never existed.

                If you realise the Macedonian empire was spread by Alexander the great and very much ended with him…a man who died at the age of 33 and who really kicked off about age 20. Do you seriously sit mouth wide open aghast at why there would be a lack of written evidence to promote Macedonians in such a relatively short period of time and seriously doubt they were masters of the then known world or that they even existed if they were anything other than Greek for the lack of writing.

                From what I have read of you thus far you come across as an intelligent person so I thought it reasonable to expect intelligent reasoning and looked forward to you views yet with all sincerity you use the argument of a lack of written evidence as the strength of your argument to negate the existence of society. This was the best you could come up with.

                I dont buy it. Sorry.
                Here is a Ring. Said to be from the Thracians. Now here is a good example. Greek letters being used to show evidence of their language. Just like Cyrillic is used today.

                Anythng similar in Macedonia ?
                Could you consider that maybe Greek letters are not the most appropriate vehicle to write Macedonian words. The complexity of sounds do not have accurate representation in Greek while similarly not all Greek letters have relevance to the Macedonian language eg TH…Macedonian does not have any words with a th sound in it yet dz or ts and others I don’t even know how to express in English letters are common…eg if you know Croatian the sound the letter z with a little v mark above it makes. So how do I write Macedonian using Greek letters.

                If this difficulty prevents me writing Macedonian using Greek letters but I still nee to convey a message to no Macedonian subjects would not the smartest thing to do is to just write it in Greek.

                Comment

                • Voltron
                  Banned
                  • Jan 2011
                  • 1362

                  #53
                  Originally posted by OziMak View Post
                  You know Voltron I am not the smartest guy in the world but I find myself amazed when supposedly intelligent people are amazed by what supposedly less intelligent people do.

                  Up until very recent times some old people didn’t know how to read or write and used their fingerprint on documents like a signature so is it really strange to hear of people centuries ago or even millennia ago being illiterate.

                  Today we take reading and writing for granted…doesn’t everybody do it…and we even take ones skill in reading and writing as a measure of ones intelligence yet in our zeal for intelligence some people overlook other traits of intelligence and falsely label others as unintelligent. Is it not horses for courses. If my plane crashed and I was lost in the desert I might find it difficult to find food and water yet aboriginal tribesmen survive in some of the most inhospitable parts of Australia for 40000 years. I imagine a person…someone like a lawyer or professor…totally parched with thirst lying in the sun dieing and in his dire desperation praying for someone to come along and piss on him and his intelligence just so he might have a drop and not die.

                  The aborigines told their history through paintings and oral recitation of stories handed down one generation to the next for 40000 years without a single letter let alone word written. They are not the only society in the world to be illiterate so why is it so hard to accept the lack of written evidence does not negate the existence of a large society.

                  When the aborigines met white people they did not instantly create an alphabet to compete with the white man. Even if the aborigines were able to subdue the white settlers and become there masters I doubt they would have rushed to develop an alphabet and probably would have used English seeing it was the most common language used by their captives even though their native tong could have been English by some and Scottish welsh or Irish…all completely different from English…by others. A decade later the aboriginal empire is defeated. What should people of the future make of ancient coins monuments and books…that the aborigines were English or maybe they never existed.

                  If you realise the Macedonian empire was spread by Alexander the great and very much ended with him…a man who died at the age of 33 and who really kicked off about age 20. Do you seriously sit mouth wide open aghast at why there would be a lack of written evidence to promote Macedonians in such a relatively short period of time and seriously doubt they were masters of the then known world or that they even existed if they were anything other than Greek for the lack of writing.

                  From what I have read of you thus far you come across as an intelligent person so I thought it reasonable to expect intelligent reasoning and looked forward to you views yet with all sincerity you use the argument of a lack of written evidence as the strength of your argument to negate the existence of society. This was the best you could come up with.





                  Could you consider that maybe Greek letters are not the most appropriate vehicle to write Macedonian words. The complexity of sounds do not have accurate representation in Greek while similarly not all Greek letters have relevance to the Macedonian language eg TH…Macedonian does not have any words with a th sound in it yet dz or ts and others I don’t even know how to express in English letters are common…eg if you know Croatian the sound the letter z with a little v mark above it makes. So how do I write Macedonian using Greek letters.

                  If this difficulty prevents me writing Macedonian using Greek letters but I still nee to convey a message to no Macedonian subjects would not the smartest thing to do is to just write it in Greek.
                  Ozi, I enjoy reading your posts and I mean it. Im on my way out and Id like to get back to you on it.

                  If I can make a quick comment though, if Thracians can use Greek letters and Illyrians can use Greek letters then there is no reason to believe the Macedonians couldnt of used it for their own language if they had one.

                  Comment

                  • Voltron
                    Banned
                    • Jan 2011
                    • 1362

                    #54
                    Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                    Ozi, I enjoy reading your posts and I mean it. Im on my way out and Id like to get back to you on it.

                    If I can make a quick comment though, if Thracians can use Greek letters and Illyrians can use Greek letters then there is no reason to believe the Macedonians couldnt of used it for their own language if they had one.
                    Ok, I dont believe that the time span was an issue for the Macedonians to develop their own Alphabet. They have been in contact with Greeks long before Alexander was even born. As I said before, we have evidence for Thracians that used Greek letters to make inscriptions but we do not find anything similar for Macedonia. Surely a nation that views Greeks with discontempt and vice versa would avoid promoting Hellenic culture (Religion, Writing, Traditions ) but they didnt.

                    What I said is that certain circles among yourselves say there is no evidence to show they were Greeks. Thats what I meant, as an arguement you use against us. For every piece of evidence that does show, it is immediatly brushed off as a byproduct of Greek influence. So how does one prove his case ? What in your opinion would it take for somebody to believe that they were Greeks ? If tommorrow, you do find Alexanders tomb with Greek writing all over it. Would you just say AGAIN that it was just an easier way to express themselves ? What is the casecracker in your opinion ?

                    Comment

                    • fyrOM
                      Banned
                      • Feb 2010
                      • 2180

                      #55
                      Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                      What is the casecracker in your opinion ?
                      Written language is definitely the best way to prove someone existed but Not that they didn’t exist. The absence of writing in a society is a hindrance and one to be overcome if the society is to move into the modern world but not to functioning nor thriving in a barbaric world.

                      It was inevitable that Cyrillic would have been invented but more so what excels a society is being free to express oneself. If we look at the greatness of the west it would be easy for an outsider to think the west was always one great place to be yet in reality ignorance disease wars and misery permeated western society until the renaissance while at the same time other societies in Asia flourished…so yes they became great but only relatively speaking recently.

                      It’s a sad fact that after the downfall of Macedonia they did not raise their heads from servitude until the end of the 20th century and even this is an incomplete job…re fyrom. When one is not free it is not just the body that is in bondage but the mind and with it the will. This is what stifles people. Alone this would be a valid point to argue but somewhat not as sharp as it should be after all do we not have examples of prisoners writing novels. But this counter argument is not comparing apples with apples…first of all it is the exception and not the rule…for a prisoner to write a novel he first needs to be Given paper and pen the time to do it and most importantly enough emotional security…if literally your thoughts are on whether you survive today or not and where is your next meal coming from a novel is very far from your thoughts. I am reminded of a line in a movie…Shawshank Redemption…after 50 odd years behind bars he found it hard to even take a piss without asking for permission first. But even this is Not enough of an excuse could not some individual out of the multitudes over such a long time found themselves in a more fortunate position and squirreled away something in writing. There is….

                      The video clip The Lion will Raw was referring to is a good one but not with the English subtitles…here is another version with subtitles.

                      YouTube - For Greek and Bulgarian lies END!

                      To borrow a line…The Truth IS Out There…I just suspect it is hidden in the basement of some museum.

                      The other scary part is the archeological excavation going on in Macedonia and elsewhere…you cant change history you can only hide bits of it to create a different view of it…and what may be uncovered.

                      To the west the easiest solution would be if Macedonia just somehow ceased to exist…of course this is not realistic so the next best thing is to manipulate Macedonia to change her name but they are stubborn pricks smart enough to find information and get aid…they must have read How to Gain Friends and Influence People hahaha so how do we reconcile this situation and save face and introduce it to the world gently. I believe this will happen in the near future. I think it will be in the form of geee look what we found…read dragged out of the basement…who’d of thunk it. The open structure of the eu makes it possible to do without major upheaval. Getting the whole of the Balkans upto scratch and in the eu is the delay.

                      Comment

                      • Agamoi Thytai
                        Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 198

                        #56
                        Originally posted by makedonche View Post
                        Agamoi
                        Who wrote this book?
                        It's Arrian's "Indica":

                        It is well-known that in the Indian campaign took part only Macedonian troops because Alexander had already dismissed his Greek allies.
                        Originally posted by George S. View Post
                        Agamoi that soldier you mentioned falling behind & getting lost & being found that he spoke greek well yes he was greek why because all the greeks alexander had he put them behind of his entourage remember alexanders army was a macedonian one.Also the peole who found this person were surprised that he spoke greek,why because macedonians in alexanders army spoke macedonian only.So you keep your charade of saying that because someone speaks greek they must be greek.You know agamoi if you beleive it long enough pigs can fly.Ako mislish za dolgo vreme prasinata ke pustat krilca i ke letat.
                        That passage of Arrian shows that it was not only the nobility,common Macedonian soldiers spoke Greek too.And if it is not enough to convince you,read also this passage of Plutarch:

                        When Lasthenes, as ambassador of Olynthus, called on Philip II of Macedon, he remarked that on his way to the palace he'd heard the Macedonians refer to him (Lasthenes) as a traitor. Philip replied, "Ay, these Macedonians are a blunt people who call figs 'figs' and a spade a 'spade.'"


                        Lasthenes was a Greek from Olynthus who had helped Philip to conquer the town.If Macedonians didn't speak Greek how could he understand them calling him "traitor"?
                        "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                        Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                        Comment

                        • Agamoi Thytai
                          Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 198

                          #57
                          Originally posted by makedonche View Post
                          Agamoi
                          Why do you keep quoting ridiculous sources and try to make them seem credible? Tell us who is Jane Taylor who wrote the book you refer to!
                          A little help for you:-
                          Really,you've found that one of my sources is "ridiculous"?I hope you don't consider as ridiculous too all these sources that claim Aramaic was the lingua franca of the Persian empire before Alexander's time:





                          Especially encyclopaedias such as Britannica,Americana and Judaica:





                          "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                          Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                          Comment

                          • Agamoi Thytai
                            Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 198

                            #58
                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            Why do the Irish and Scottish still use English when they have their own Celtic tongues that are still alive today?
                            This is the worst example you could find.Scotts and Irishmen were conquered and ruled by England for many centouries.Instead Macedonians were never conquered or ruled by Athens,yet they adopted the Attic dialect as their official language.
                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            I wouldn't say that sort of phonology was unknown to Macedonians, it just wasn't common for them, meaning most of those words are foreign loans. The fact that these linguistic particulars exist in Macedonian which differentiates it from Greek really bothers you, doesn't it? I've seen you do all sorts of dances trying to downplay their significance, and to no avail.
                            This Macedonian phonological peculiarity was not that unfamiliar to southern Greeks.The following passage of Plutarch speaks volumes:

                            "The month ‘Bysios,’ as many think, is the month of growth (physios) ; for it begins the spring and during it many plants spring up and come into bloom. But this is not the truth of the matter, for Delphians do not use b in place of ph (as Macedonians do who say ‘Bilip’ and ‘balacros’ and ‘Beronicę’), but in place of p; thus they naturally say ‘broceed’ for ‘proceed’ and ‘bainful’ for ‘painful.’ Accordingly ‘Bysios’ is ‘pysios,’ the month of oracular inquiry, in which men ask questions and obtain responses from the god ; for this is the legitimate and traditional procedure."


                            So according to Plutarch, many Greeks etymologized the name of a month of the Delphian calendar applying the Macedonian phonology,i.e. they thought the name "Bysios" was actually "Physios",because they thought Delphians used "B" instead of "PH",like the Macedonians.Why should they think and interpret a Greek dialectical word that way,if Macedonian was regarded as an alien tongue that had nothing to do with Greek?
                            "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                            Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                            Comment

                            • Voltron
                              Banned
                              • Jan 2011
                              • 1362

                              #59
                              Originally posted by OziMak View Post
                              To the west the easiest solution would be if Macedonia just somehow ceased to exist…of course this is not realistic so the next best thing is to manipulate Macedonia to change her name but they are stubborn pricks smart enough to find information and get aid…they must have read How to Gain Friends and Influence People hahaha so how do we reconcile this situation and save face and introduce it to the world gently. I believe this will happen in the near future. I think it will be in the form of geee look what we found…read dragged out of the basement…who’d of thunk it. The open structure of the eu makes it possible to do without major upheaval. Getting the whole of the Balkans upto scratch and in the eu is the delay.
                              I dont believe in conspiracy theories Ozi. Greece is one of the best in making them when things go wrong. Its always the Americans, or Brits or Jews ect, ect. ect.

                              Trust me when I say, if you guys ever do find something. Im all eyes and ears. Just show me something.

                              Comment

                              • George S.
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2009
                                • 10116

                                #60
                                THe normal person never needed to speak greek as they didn't need to.THe royal house needed to becace they needed to speak for trade with the greeks.You are hiding the fact that the macedonians spoke MACEDONIAN & NOT GREEK.Your beleif that the macedonians just spoke greek is totally wrong.Your beleif that all macedonians spoke greek is wrong.Some macedonians spoke greek & not that they were greek.They were from the royal house they needed to because of trade not because they were greek.Stop trying to BS otherwise.
                                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                                GOTSE DELCEV

                                Comment

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