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Old 02-06-2013, 05:35 PM   #1
Epirot
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Default ΑΡΒΑΝΙΤΙΚΟΥ ΣΥΝΔΕΣΜΟΥ: Greek is a civilized Albanian

Hold your breath! There was a time when certain Greek personalities (of Albanian descent indeed) proudly maintained their Albanian identity. During XIXth century certain Greeks launched the idea of establishing a kingdom which would encompass all of Albanians. This is the main reason why Greek state at that time circulated numerous maps which showed Greece as being a territory stretching from northern Albania.



The most enthusiastic personalities who embraced wholeheartedly that idea, begun to find new arguments to back up the claim for the creating of a kingdom which would be called 'Greek-Albanian kingdom' (something similar to the Austro-Hungary). They had no hesitation to point out all the commonalities between Greeks and Albanians. Those intellectuals perceived justly Albanians and Greeks as being the same people. In following I shall present an appeal of Arvanites of Athens given to the Albanians in 1899.

ΠΡΟΚΗΡΥΞΗ ΤΟΥ ΑΡΒΑΝΙΤΙΚΟΥ ΣΥΝΔΕΣΜΟΥ ΤΗΣ ΑΘΗΝΑΣ
ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΥΣ ΑΔΕΡΦΟΥΣ ΑΡΒΑΝΙΤΕΣ ΤΗΣ ΑΡΒΑΝΙΤΙΑΣ (1899)

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Αλλ' αν βαθυνουμε λιγο στην ουσια,αν συμβουλευτουμε λιγο την Ιστορια,αν εξετασωμε το πραγμα καλα,θα ιδουμε οτι η Ελλαδα δεν εχει καμμια εχτρα μ'εμας,οτι ουτε μπορει ν'αχη.Η ιστορια μας λεγει οτι οι Ελληνες ειναι απογονοι των Πελασγων,των παππουδων μας,οτι Ελληνες κι' Αρβανιτες,κατα τους Βυζαντινους χρονους,ειχαν μια θρησκεια,ενα βασιλειο,και μια πατριδα,οτι ο Σκεντερμπεης μιλουσε κι' Αρβανιτικα κι' Ελληνικα,κι'εγραφε την ελληνικη γλωσσα,σαν ελληνας,κι'οτι η Ελλαδα η σημερινη ειναι εργο αρβανιτικο κι'ελληνικο.Στον αγωνα του 1821,που εκαμε η Ελλαδα εναντιον της Τουρκιας,αγωνιστηκε κι'η δικη μας φυλη,η αρβανιτικη,και με τη βοηθεια τη δικη μας,την αρβανιτικη,ελευτερωθηκε η Ελλαδα.
If we turn back into history, we will see that Greece has no animosity with us. History tell us that Greeks are seeds of Pelasgians, our forebears, that Greeks and Albanians in the time of Byzantium have had one religion, one kingdom and one state as well, that Scanderbeg used to spoke Albanian as well as Greek (in writing) and modern Greece is nothing but Albanian and Greek upshot. In the war of 1821 which Greece waged against Turkey, our people fought as well and Greece was free because of our help.

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Αναμεσα σε τοσους ηρωες,που ανεδειξε η ελληνικη επανασταση του 1821 ολοι οι θαλασσινοι ηρωες,εξον μονον απο τους Ψαριανους,ειταν Αρβανιτες της Υδρας,της Σπετσας,του Πορου και του Κρανιδιου.Οι πλειοτεροι ηρωες της στεριας ειταν αρβανιτες του Σουλιου,της Χειμαρρας,της Αθηνας,της Θηβας.της Λειβαδιας,της Αταλαντης,της Κορινθος,και πολλων μερων του Μωρια,που ως τα σημερα μιλουν ακομα αρβανιτικα.Εξον απ'τους χριστιανους αρβανιτες,ειταν και τρεις-ημισυ χιλιαδες αρβανιτες μωαμεθανοι,που πολεμουσαν μαζυ με τους Ελληνες εναντιον των Τουρκων,και αρχηγοι αυτωνων των αρβανιτων ειταν ο Ταφιλ-Μπουζης,ο Γκιολεκας,ο Χοντος,και αλλοι φημισμενοι καπεταναραιοι αρβανιτες.Δεν θα πουμε κανενα ψεμα,αδερφια,αν πουμε οτι οι Αρβανιτες ελευθερωσαν την Ελλαδα!
Among several heroes which took part in the uprising, all of naval heroes, excluding only Psariones, were Albanians of Hydra Spetzai, Poros and Kranidhes as well. The most of heroes in hinterland were Albanians of Souli, Himara, Athens, Theba, Livadia, Atlanda, Corinth and regions of Morea, who still speak Albanian. Beside Christian Albanians, there were 3500 Muslim Albanians who sided up with Greeks against Ottomans. Their leaders were Tafil Buzi, Gjoleka, Hodo as well as others. We do not tell any lie, brothers, if we state that Albanians liberated Greece!

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Δυο μεγαλα περιστατικα εκεινης της εποχης μας πειθουν οτι οι Αρβανιτες και οι Ελληνες σκεφτονταν σαν να ειταν αδερφια,κι'οχι σαν ξενοι αναμεταξυ τους.Το ενα περιστατικο ειταν τουτο: Οταν ο Αλη πασιας εβαλε τους Γαρδικιωτες ξαρματωτους μεσα σε μια μεγαλη μαντρα,αντρες γυναικες και παιδια,για να τους καταστρεψη,φωναξε τους Ελληνες τους καπεταναραιους,που ειχε μαζυ του και τους ειπε ν'αδειασουν τα ντουφεκια τους απανω στο σωρο,νομιζοντας οτι οι Ελληνες οι καπεταναραιοι,ως χριστιανοι,θα εριχναν στους Γαρδικιωτες,ως μωαμεθανους.Τοτε γυρισαν οι Ελληνες καπεταναραιοι κι'ειπαν στον Αλη -πασια: Δος τους τ'αρματα πρωτα στα χερια,κι'υστερα πιανομε πολεμο! Οσο που ειναι ξαρματωτοι ημεις δεν τους σκοτωνουμε!. Κι'ετσι οι Ελληνες οι καπεταναραιοι δεν εβαψαν τα χερια τους μεσα στ'αδερφικο το αιμα των Γαρδικιωτων,κι'αφησαν την ατιμη αυτη δοξα στο πλειο ατιμο πλασμα,που εχει γεννησει η Αρβανιτια,στο Θαναση Βαγια, με τους Λεκλιωτες του!
(…)There are two major events which persuade us that Albanians and Greeks perceived one another as being the same. The first example is as following: When Ali Pasha (of Jannina) put the disarmed Kardhiotes in a fold, he ordered his Greek kapetans to open fire on them. But they (Greek kapetans) said to Ali Pasha: “Give them some weapons and then we will start the war. We won’t shot them as long as they are disarmed”. And so Greek kapteans did not kill their gardhiot brothers…

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Το δευτερο περιστατικο εγεινε στο γεφυρι της Αλαμανας,οταν :Επεσε ο Διακος ζωντανος στα τουρκικα τα χερια,αφου εσωσε τα φουσεκια του,κι'εσπασε το σπαθι του.Ο Ομερ-πασιας Βρυωνης,αρχηγος των Αρβανιτων,προσπαθησε με καθε τροπο να γλυτωση το Διακο,εναν απο τους μεγαλυτερους καπεταναραιους των Ελληνων,αλλα δεν μπορεσε,γιατι ο Κιοσε Μεχμετ-πασιας,αμα εμαθε οτι ο Ομερ Βρυωνης ηθελε με καθε τροπο να γλυτωση τον Διακο απο τα τουρκικα τα χερια,διεταξε το γληγοροτερο,και τον περασαν στο σουβλι,σαν κριαρι.Αμα τωμαθε ο Ομερ Βρυωνης,εκλαψε σαν παιδι,για το θανατο του Διακου!
The second event occurred in the bridge of Alamana when Ahanas Dhiako was captured by the Turks. The Albanian commander, Omer pasha Vrioni, tried to rescue him unsuccessfully because Kose Mehmet Pasha knew Omer’s plan, so he ordered to kill him immediately. When Omer Vrioni heard of that, he cried for the death of Diakos.

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Αυτα τα δυο περιστατικα φανερωνουν οτι στην καρδια του ελληνικου και του αρβανιτικου λαου ειναι ριζωμενο το αιστημα της συγγενειας,που εχουν οι Ελληνες με τους Αρβανιτες.Ο Ελληνας,πριν γεινει Ελληνας,ειταν Αρβανιτης,δηλαδη Πελασγος.Ελληνας θα ειπη: Αρβανιτης πολιτισμενος.Η γλωσσα μας,η αρβανιτικη,ειναι αρχαιοτερη της παλιας ελληνικης γλωσσας,που την λεγουν ομηρικη γλωσσα.Οι σοφοι γλωσσολογοι της Ευρωπης θεωρουν την ελληνικη γλωσσα τελειοποιηση της αρβανιτικης.Ελλαδα χωρις Αρβανιτια,και Αρβανιτια χωρις Ελλαδα ειναι πραγματα μισα.Οταν η Ελλαδα κι η Αρβανιτια σμιξουν,τοτε θα γεινει μια μεγαλη Ελλαδα και μια μεγαλη Αρβανιτια.
These two events confirms that in the heart of Greek and Albanian people is rooted the feeling of brotherhood. Greek, before he became Greek was Albanian, namely Pelasgian. Greek simply means: civilized Albanian. Our language, Albanian is older than ancient Greek, which we call Homeric language. The wise linguists of Europe consider Greek as being a sophisticated form of Albanian. Greece without Albania and Albania without Greece is incomplete puzzle.

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Δε μας μενει αλλος τροπος,αδελφια,παρα ναρθωμε στο νου μας το γληγορωτερο,να λησμονησωμε ποιοι ειμεστε μωαμεθανοι,και ποιοι χριστιανοι,και ποιοι απο τους μωαμεθανους ειμαστε μουσουλμανοι,ποιοι μπεκτσασλιδες και ποιοι ρουφαδες και ποιοι απο τους χριστιανους ειμεστε ορθοδοξοι και ποιοι παπιστανοι,και ν'ακουμπησωμε στην Ελλαδα και να καμωμε το Ελληνοαρβανιτικο Βασιλειο,οπως οι Ουγγαρεζοι με τους Αυστριακους και οι Σουηδοι με τους Νορβηγους.
(…)There is no alternative left, but to act wisely, to ignore who is Muslim and who is Christian and let us create a Greek-Albanian kingdom in the same way as Hungarians and Austrians did or Sweede-Norway kingdom.

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Ειναι πολλοι λογοι που μας αναγκαζουν να καμωμε αυτο,κι αυτο,και μονο:
There are numerous reasons which compel us to do that:

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1ο.Οτι ο τοπος της Ελλαδας ειναι εγγυημενος,και κανενας αλλος δε μπορει να πατηση στο χωμα της,κι'αν πατηση γληγορα φευγει.
1) The Greek soil is guaranteed and nobody can violate. Even if Greece is being captured, the conquerors will soon leave it.

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2ο.Οτι οι Ελληνες ειναι γενια δικη μας κι'ειμεστε ξεμακρυσμενα αδερφια,γιατι ειναι κι'αυτοι παιδια των παππουδων μας των Πελασγων.
2) Greeks are our own seed and we are distant brothers, because they are children of our ancestors, namely Pelasgians.

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3ο.Οτι εχομε να καμωμε στην Ελλαδα,γιατι εχομε τοσες χιλιαδες Αρβανιτες μεσα στον τοπο της,κι' η αρβανιτικη η γλωσσα μιλιεται ως μεσα στην Αθηνα.
3) We have to deal with Greece, because we have thousands of Arvanites and their language is being spoken in Athens nowadays.

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4ο.Οτι η λευτερια της Ελλαδας ειναι καμωμενη και με το αρβανιτικο το αιμα,και αν δεν ειταν οι Αρβανιτες:Υδριωτες,Σπετσιωτες,Ποριωτες,Σουλιωτ ες,
Χειμαρριωτες και λοιποι,δε θα μπορουσε να ελευτερωθη η Ελλαδα.
4) The freedom of Greece is linked with Albanian blood, because if there were no Albanians, Hydriotes, Spetziotes, Poriotes, Suliotes and Himariotes, Greece could not achieve its liberation.

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5ο.Οτι οι Ελληνες κι'οι Αρβανιτες εχουν τες ιδιες συνηθειες,και τα ιδια φερσιματα,φορουν τα ιδια φορεματα-τες φουστανελλες-,ομιλουν τη γλωσσα μας,και ομιλουμε τη γλωσσα τους,κι'οτι την οικογενειακη τιμη την εχομε κι'αυτοι κι'ημεις απανω στο κεφαλι μας,κι'οχι κατω απο τα ποδια μας,οπως την εχουν αλλοι,που δε ξερουν τι θα ειπη τιμη γυναικος,...
5) Greeks and Albanians have the same traditions and behavior, wore the same dress-fustanella, they spoke our language, and we spoke the language of them. They share with us the honor of family…

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6ο.Οτι οι Ελληνες εινε ολιγοι,οσοι ειμεστε κι'ημεις,και δε θα μπορεσουν ποτε να μας κανουν οπως θελουν,και να μας ελληνεψουν,αλλα θα ειμεστε παντοτεινα αρβανιτες στο πλαγι τους.
6) Greeks are not numerous (as we are), so they can never Hellenize us, because we will retain Albanians.

....

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8ο.Τους Ελληνες τους γνωριζουμε και μας γνωριζουν.Ζησαμε χιλιαδες χρονια με τους Ελληνες και ζουμε ακομα σαν αδερφια.Χιλιαδες Ελληνες ζουνε μεσα στην Αρβανιτια και χιλιαδες Αρβανιτες ζουνε μεσα στην Ελλαδα και ποτε ως στα σημερα δεν ηρθαν σε αμαχη,αλλα και στην Αρβανιτια οι Ελληνες με τους Αρβανιτες ζουν σαν αδελφια,επειδη κι'οι δυο οι φυλες αυτες,η Ελληνικη και η Αρβανιτικη,βρισκονται σε τοπο που ανηκει και στες δυο,και δε βρισκεται η μια φυλη στον τοπο της αλληνης,σαν σε ξενο τοπο.Ο,τι ειναι ελληνικο ειναι και αρβανιτικο κι'ο,τι ειναι αρβανιτικο ειναι κι'ελληνικο.Το αιμα νερο δεν γινεται!
8) We know Greeks and they know us as well. We still live with Greeks as being brothers, because our seeds are located in a country which belongs to both us. Thousands of Greeks live in Albania and thousands of Albanians live within Greece and never fought against one another. Even in Albania they live as brothers, because Albanians and Greeks live in the regions which belong to them. No people are in foreign land. What is Greek is also Albanian and what is Albanian is Greek likewise. You cannot turn blood into water.


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Εμπρος αδερφια!Ελατε να γεινωμε ενα Ελληνοαρβανιτικο Βασιλειο,και πρεπει να γεινωμε,γιατι εχομε ενα αιμα,μια Πατριδα κι' ενα Θεο!
Forward brothers! Let us create Greek-Albanian kingdom, because we have are of the same blood and have one country and one god!

Knowing that several Greeks (and one Serbian izbeglica) are constanyly watching us, I would advice them to take into consideration some key words of their ancestors:

- Ο,τι ειναι ελληνικο ειναι και αρβανιτικο κι'ο,τι ειναι αρβανιτικο ειναι κι'ελληνικο.

- Το αιμα νερο δεν γινεται!

- Οτι η λευτερια της Ελλαδας ειναι καμωμενη και με το αρβανιτικο το αιμα

- Ελληνας θα ειπη: Αρβανιτης πολιτισμενος

Andreas Kyropoulos and the rest of halfwits have one more chance of being aware of their background. Nothing offensive at all.
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:47 PM   #2
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Some more questions:

αρβανιτες του Σουλιου,της Χειμαρρας. What? I thought both Suliotes and Himariotes were Greeks ab origine. I am really perplexed because the later should have been a Greek minority in the midst of Albanians.

χιλιαδες αρβανιτες μωαμεθανοι,που πολεμουσαν μαζυ με τους Ελληνες εναντιον των Τουρκων How come that? I thought Muslim Albanians were the dark side of Revolution.

φορουν τα ιδια φορεματα-τες φουστανελλες This is impossible. How come that the national garment of Evzones is loaned from Albanians?
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:38 PM   #3
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Good stuff Epirot that show again the close relationship between the Greeks and the Arvanites.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:39 PM   #4
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Hi Epirot, this is great stuff. Keep 'em coming. :-)
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:21 AM   #5
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epirot pretty soon you'll probably take over greece .When you do don't forget to give macedonia to the macedonians.You never know you might end up a hero.
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:25 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Nexus View Post
Good stuff Epirot that show again the close relationship between the Greeks and the Arvanites.
All jokes aside, please. Greece has coined the term 'Arvanites' to conceal as much as possible its Albanian being. Likewise Greece refer to the language of Aromanians as Vlachika (not as Aromanika) in order to belittle its links with Romanian.

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Unlike the Slav-speakers, few of the speakers of Albanian and none of the speakers of Aromanian in the Greek state lived in areas contiguous with a state whose chief and official language was closely cognate with their own (i.e Albania and Romania respectively). This is one of the reasons why the speaking of Albanian and Aromanian was looked upon with far less suspicion than the speaking of Slav languages. It should be noted, however, that in Greek these languages are usually called (by both their native speakers and the rest of the Greek population) Arvanitika and Vlachika (Vlach) as opposed to Alvanika (Albanian) and Aromanika (Aromanian), since the use of these two later terms might seem to connect these two languages more closely with those of other nation states. In addition, there have sometimes been attempts to demonstrate that a particular foreign language spoken in Greek lands is really a variety of Greek, or that it has been so comprehensively influenced by Greek that it can no longer be seen as closely related to some cognate extraterritorial language.

Standard Languages and Multilingualism in European History pp. 158-59)
When Greek enthusiasts launched the idea of brotherhood, they were not referring to the Albanians within Greek state but to all Albanians, especially those of Albania. Even certain Albanians supported that idea. Here is a poem which make it clear that Greeks of that time were still Albanian in the sense there was no difference with the populace of Albania:

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"Σε τούτη την εποχή, σε τούτο τον αιώνα,
θέλετε τη φιλία μας, θέλετε την αγάπη;
Εμείς είμαστε Αλβανοί κι σείς Έλληνες είστε,
σεις την Ελλάδα έχετε κι εμείς την Αλβανία.
Σεις έχετε τη γλώσσα σας κι εμείς την εδική μας.
Σε τέτοια βάση δύναται να στεριωθεί η φιλία.
Μη βάζετε, αδέλφια, αυτί στα λόγια των εχθρών μας,
που προσπαθούνε πάντοτε να κάμουν τη θρησκεία
μέσο διχόνοιας μισαρής, μέσο ραδιοργίας,
όργανο του φανατισμού και της καταστροφής μας.
Θέλουν να μας χωρίσουνε για τα συμφέροντά τους".
Translation:

In this period, in this century
do you want our friendship, do you want love?
We are Albanians, you are Greeks,
you have Greece, we have Albania,
you have your language, we have our language.
In this way friendship will be cement.
Brothers, do not listen our enemies
who try to make religion
vehicle for hate
means of fanatism and our disaster.
They want to seperate us in theirs interest.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:50 PM   #7
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It's amazing how the albanians never revolted .Why pretend to be greeks when they were not.If it wasn't for the different ethnicities behaving like greeks there wouldn't be no greece.Look at the way greek propaganda works they are fakes,they force people to change their identity to only identify as greeks,by use of greek names,& toponyms.What would have happened if the albanians refused to comply with the greek requests.??
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:45 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot
All jokes aside, please. Greece has coined the term 'Arvanites' to conceal as much as possible its Albanian being.
Greece didn't coin the term, it is simply the Greek version of your own original ethnonym, which is 'Arbanit'. The name you call your language, people and country today was coined, long after 'Arbanit' people were first recorded.
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Likewise Greece refer to the language of Aromanians as Vlachika (not as Aromanika) in order to belittle its links with Romanian.
Macedonia refers to them as Vlachs and it certainly isn't meant to belittle them.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:47 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Greece didn't coin the term, it is simply the Greek version of your own original ethnonym, which is 'Arbanit'.
I think you misunderstood my point. I am well aware that Arvanites (Arbanites) is way older than Alvanoi (Albanoi). But the intention of the Greek state by using officially such term is to detach as much as possible Arvanites from the Albanians. Behind that "innocent" use of "r" instead of "l" is the weird attempt to show Arvanites and Albanians as different people. All of linguists have settled beyond any doubt that "Arvanitika" is merely a branch of Tosk dialect who retained certain archaic forms (which does not exist in Albanian anymore). So it would be more correct to describe their language as Alvanika rather than Arvanitika.

Quote:
John Bintliff, The Ethnoarchaeology of a "Passive " Ethnicity, p. 139

While compiling my maps of village systems across the post-medieval centuries from the Ottoman sources (archives so remarkably discovered andtabulated for us by Machiel Kiel; see Kiel 1997; Bintliff 1995, 1997), I was careful to indicate in the English captions which of them were Albanian-speaking and which Greek-speaking villages. A strong supporter of the project,the Orthodox bishop of Livadhia, Hieronymus, watched over my shoulder as the maps took shape. "Very interesting," he said, looking at the symbols for ethnicity, "but what you have written here is quite wrong. You see the people in Greece who speak a language like Albanian are Arvanites, not Alvanoi, and they speak Arvanitika not Alvanika." In this seemingly innocuous, and of course technically correct, comment lies a much deeper layer of ideology, signified by the mere substitution of an "r" or an "1." The bishop was voicing the accepted modern position among those Greeks who are well aware of the persistence of indigenous Albanian-speakers in the provinces of their country: the "Albanians" are not like us at all, they are ex-Communists from outside the modern Greek state who come here for work from their backward country; as for the Arvanites (traditional inhabitants of the Greek countryside speaking Albanian)—well, they are a kind of ethnic Greek population from somewhere on the northwest borders of Greece, where the line between the Greek state and that of Albania has always been fuzzy and permeable to intermarriage.Thus the difference between an "l" and an "r" neatly allows the modern Greeks to divorce themselves and their history from that of the unpopular but widely employed, modern Gastarbeiter of post-Communist Albania. Shortly after this conversation, I saw the bishop pass across the courtyard of our project base—a converted monastery run as a research center—to talk to the genuine Albanian guest workers who were restoring its stonework. I knew he was himself an Arvanitis, and listened with interest as he chatted fluently to them—and it wasn't in Greek! I was tempted, but wisely forbore, to ask him which language they were conversing in—Arvanitika or Alvanika? In a volume focusing on historic identities and boundary formation, it is a matter of considerable interest to understand a minority's view of itself in relation to the larger national whole into which it has been merged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Macedonia refers to them as Vlachs and it certainly isn't meant to belittle them
The case in Greece is quite different. Greece attempted to Hellenize them in order to increase the number of Greek-speakings in the conquered Macedonia. Greek circles tried to alienate the Aromanian-speakings either by trying to show them as a Greek community which was influenced by the Aromanian or as a community which had no relation to the Aromanian groups of Albania, Macedonia, etc. The Greek scholar, Achilleas Lazarou stated that Aromanians are Romanized hellenes (?). Contrary to him was Koukoudis who went as far as to claim that Aromanian might be traced to 'Romiosini'. His intention was to show Aromanians as being "a Greek ethnocultural or ethnolinguistic particularity".
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:32 PM   #10
George S.
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Epirot so what do you guys really want in greece recognition of minority rights???You know greece will never do that as there are only greeks in greece according to greece.So what do you guys want to happen in epirot??
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