Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[vicsinad]

Here's some news in response to the Alexander the Great statue being taken down in Skopje's airport:

http://standard.mk/tvrdokorni-napadot-protiv-aleksandar-makedonski-pretstavuva-objavuvanje-na-vojna/

Здружението „Тврдокорни“ најавува дека ќе го блокира скопскиот аеродром како реакција на отстранувањето на споменикот на „Александар Македонски“.

На „Фејсбук“, од организацијата не прецизираат кога ќе ги спроведат блокадите, но најавуваат дека тоа ќе се случи во следниот период.

Нападот против Александар Македонски е напад против целиот Македонски народ! Нападот против Александар Македонски претставува објавување на војна! А ова е војна која треба и мора да се добие, па дури и по цена на нашите животи!

Никогаш нема да им простиме на предавници, утре допрва доаѓа!

Борбата за МАКЕДОНИЈА допрва доаѓа!!!


The attack against Alexander Macedonian is an attack against all Macedonian people! The attack against Alexander Macedonian is the publication of war! And this is a war that needs and must be obtained, and even at the cost of our lives!

[Gocka]

I never put that much stock in tvrdo korni but right now they might be all we have and at least some of their priorities are in the right palce

[Amphipolis]

This probably isn't going to be the first time I've told you this either: Go Fuck yourself you plate smashing baboon.

First of all, you don't know if I vote or not.

Second, the issue is not their intervening powers which are ample should they choose to use them. The problem we have with them is the choices they make or do not make. Their understanding of or lack there of on certain issues. Their constant deferral of responsibility for the state of the country they live in.

Don't even begin to pretend that you care enough about our plight to really understand what exactly our issue is with.

For the life of me I can't understand how pathetic your life must be to waste time on a forum that is exclusively Macedonian discussing internal Macedonian issues.

1. I’m sorry, I can’t say I remember this, maybe you should use an avatar.

2. I DO know that most of you didn’t vote, because you’ve said it yourselves. The Ohrid example was certainly not referring to you (I hope you’re not an accountant); the only thing I remember about you is that (unlike what your info states) you don’t live in Ohrid.

3. I’m not sure I get this, or the diaspora superiority arguments. How are your compatriots different from the Americans or Canadians?

4. This is a universal topic and every individual feels frustration because things do not change the way he wants.

5. Actually I’m interested about (almost) everything (including internal issues) but the topics of the forum are far from internal. Most threads are about internal issues of… Greece.

[Om3n]

Hundreds of thousands of Greeks protested the use of the name Macedonia but what are they doing about the Middle Eastern squatters on the streets of Athens who are actually stealing their heritage by partaking in homosexual prostitution?

[Tomche Makedonche]

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonia-un-is-the-only-venue-for-name-talks-with-greece-02-28-2018

UN Must Handle All 'Name' Proposals, Macedonia Says

Macedonia says all proposed solutions to the 'name' dispute must go exclusively through the UN Mediator – following reports that Greece may soon present a draft solution of its own

Following Greek media reports that Greece may soon issue its own proposed draft agreement for overcoming the dispute over Macedonia's name, the Macedonian government has said that all proposals must first pass through the appointed UN Mediator.

“Everything discussed between the [Macedonian and Greek foreign] ministers [Nikola] Dimitrov and [Nikos] Kotzias, everything that goes in the direction of bridging the gap and reaching an agreement, goes through the filter of the [UN] Mediator Matthew Nimetz,” Macedonian government spokesperson Mile Bosnjakovski said on Wednesday.

“Everything will be put on the table exclusively by him,” Bosnjakovski added.

Greek media cited unnamed sources earlier this week as saying that Kotzias might soon visit Macedonia and deliver a seven-point draft agreement for a name settlement. The Greek daily Kathimerini said the visit may take place by the end of this week.

Macedonia's foreign ministry on Wednesday confirmed the planned visit but said it still has no definitive confirmation of the timing of Kotzias’s arrival.

Meanwhile Macedonia’s Prime Minister, Zoran Zaev, in an interview for Reuters on Tuesday for the first time revealed four suggested compromise names for his country contained in Nimetz’s last set of ideas handed to both sides in January.

“The suggestions are: Republic of North Macedonia, Republic of Upper Macedonia, Republic of Vardar Macedonia and Republic of Macedonia (Skopje),” Zaev told Reuters, after attending the Western Balkans summit in London.

Zaev added that Greece might find at least one of these four options acceptable, which would hopefully close the decades-long dispute in the coming months, allowing Macedonia to join NATO and start EU accession talks this year.

The name dispute centres on Greece's insistence that use of the word Macedonia implies a territorial claim to the northern Greek province of the same name.

Athens insists that a new name must be found that makes a clear distinction between the Greek province and the country.

As a result of the unresolved dispute, in 2008, Greece blocked Macedonia’s NATO membership. It has also blocked the start of Macedonia’s EU accession talks, despite several positive annual reports from the European Commission on the country’s progress

[Tomche Makedonche]

Btw to those concerned the Greeks are getting upset in Melbourne

http://www.news.com.au/national/vict...49bb6fd527e211

A further article has been released in response to the above:

http://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/they-started-it-macedonia-hits-back-over-racist-signs-in-melbourne/news-story/cac699dceb0a4599a654bd86cb8ef22c

‘They started it’: Macedonia hits back over ‘racist’ signs in Melbourne

A DECADES-long conflict has reignited, with “racist” signs and flags hanging in public. One side claims it all started with one offensive poster

“THEY started it”.

That’s the catchcry from members of the Macedonian community in Melbourne accused of erecting “racist” signs and defacing the Greek flag with phallic symbols.

News.com.au revealed on Wednesday how ugly tensions had flared in Melbourne. Signs reading “Greeks are Turks”, “F*** Greece for unfairness” and “F***ing racists” appeared on freeway bridges and Greek Orthodox churches last week.

A prominent member of the Greek Australian community, Chris Moutzikis, said the signs were “disgusting” and had been erected by “bigots” and “racists”.

But the Macedonian community has fired back, claiming they’ve been persecuted for too long and that Greek Australians are not the innocent victims.

“Racist slogans, you say?” one member of the Macedonian community wrote to news.com.au. “I find it racist when someone says Macedonia is Greek when clearly we’re not.”

IT’S COMPLICATED

The Macedonia issue is complex but at its most basic is about the dispute over land in the Balkan Peninsula that is half the size of Tasmania but home to some two million people.

It occupies a controversial place in Greek and Balkan history, subject to claims and counter-claims about identity, history and culture.

The greater Macedonia was divided following the end of the Second Balkan War and the signing of the Bucharest Treaty in 1913. Macedonians say they’ve been persecuted ever since.

The Republic of Macedonia was formed when it seceded from Yugoslavia in 1991. More than 130 countries, including the UK, US, Russia and China recognise the Republic of Macedonia by its constitutional name.

But Greece insists it has the rights to the name because Macedonia is already a region in the country’s north.

In Macedonia, people speak mostly Macedonian, a Slavic tongue, or Albanian. That’s entirely unrelated to the Greek spoken by Greek Macedonians.

The debate is continuing at a diplomatic level where leaders of both countries have shown a willingness to compromise. But increasingly, the conflict is being fought in communities overseas, including in Melbourne.

Peaceful rallies have been held — including one where leaders of the Greek community addressed crowds on Sunday. But ultranationalist sentiments have found their way into the mainstream.

Video of a Greek flag being burned was shared by a pro-Macedonian group on Facebook. But they say Greece started it with a sign on a building in Richmond.

Most say the back-end-forth is unhelpful and not a representation of either community.

‘WE ARE FED UP’

Many members of the Macedonian community were angered when a giant poster was erected on a building in Swan St, Richmond. It advertised the rally at the Greek Consulate in Melbourne and featured the words, in big bold letters, “Macedonia is Greek”.

A similar sign was hung from the same bridge over the Eastern Freeway where a defaced Greek flag was later spotted.

“The Greeks started this tension,” a user wrote on social media, pointing to the Swan St sign. The sign has since been removed.

Another sent pictures of the burning of a Macedonian flag with the words “Remember” and “This is your karma, bitch”. It’s not clear where or when either picture was taken.

A “proud Macedonian-Australian”, who was born there and now lives in Perth, told news.com.au he was disappointed in the actions of a few ultranationalists.

“I condemn hatred in any way, shape or form and wholeheartedly agree that as a democracy, we as people should have the right to voice our concerns, and it should be done so in a peaceful manner, free from hatred and racism towards others.”

He said he experienced discrimination growing up in Australia as early as primary school.

Another Macedonian-Australian wrote that “ultras are doing wrong but we as a people are fed up with how the Greeks have treated us for a very long time.”

Another Macedonian who asked to remain nameless told news.com.au “a lot of the signs erected around Melbourne are not there because of the Macedonian people”.

“We see those signs and are equally angry at people erecting signs of hate.”

The woman said her family “comes from the region that was split by the Bucharest Treaty and that is in Greece” and that she still sees the “tears in my father’s eyes” over the name dispute.

On Monday, the Macedonian Coalition wrote on Facebook: “Calling all Macedonians everywhere you live, Australia, Canada, Germany, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania and the Republic of Macedonia, this is your last call, there will be no more chances after this if we lose our identity, our name and our culture.

“I don’t want the next generations to grow in a world where culture is history and family is irrelevant.”

The group told news.com.au Macedonians are frustrated and that’s why the issue is boiling over.

“What we are seeing though is that Macedonians have had enough. The issue had basically become non-existent in Australia and the latest occurrence have brewed up old tensions. Denying a person’s identity would do these types of things.”

But Mr Moutzikis said attacks on Greek Australians had to stop.

“Those putting up offensive signs should leave the issue to people with sense and good will to find a solution,” he said.

A #March4Macedonia rally has been organised for Sunday, March 4. Mr Moutzikis urged members of the Greek community who were considering attending a counter-rally to think again.

He said he “condemned such idiotic behaviour”.

[Risto the Great]

Macedonia says all proposed solutions to the 'name' dispute must go exclusively through the UN Mediator – following reports that Greece may soon present a draft solution of its own

That was comforting.

[Gocka]

Well that would be one hell of a job to get paid for, to shoot the shit with the five of us.

I would say it is his 'job' to be here...

Well pay attention and take note, you griks are good at writing this down, just with a very big grik slant.

1. I’m sorry, I can’t say I remember this, maybe you should use an avatar.

I was an accountant yes, and I find it hard to believe that was a coincidence. You obviously dont understand a lot about the Macedonian diaspora. First a large portion are refugees from Aegean and Pirin Macedonia, and have no citizenship form the Republic of Macedonia and probably couldn't get it either, and thus can't vote, other than for their diaspora candidate which only hold one seat.

2. I DO know that most of you didn’t vote, because you’ve said it yourselves. The Ohrid example was certainly not referring to you (I hope you’re not an accountant); the only thing I remember about you is that (unlike what your info states) you don’t live in Ohrid.

They are different in that they live in the Republic and are custodians to the Macedonian identity and nation. Like I said a large part of the Australian diaspora is from Aegean Macedonia, and rely heavily on Macedonians in the republic to protect their identity as a whole.

3. I’m not sure I get this, or the diaspora superiority arguments. How are your compatriots different from the Americans or Canadians?

Okay if its universal then whats the point of that comment.

4. This is a universal topic and every individual feels frustration because things do not change the way he wants.

That is just a blatant lie, but then again I understand that is a part of your culture. Along with smashing plates.

5. Actually I’m interested about (almost) everything (including internal issues) but the topics of the forum are far from internal. Most threads are about internal issues of… Greece.

[Spirit]

Well that would be one hell of a job to get paid for, to shoot the shit with the five of us.




Well pay attention and take note, you griks are good at writing this down, just with a very big grik slant.



I was an accountant yes, and I find it hard to believe that was a coincidence. You obviously dont understand a lot about the Macedonian diaspora. First a large portion are refugees from Aegean and Pirin Macedonia, and have no citizenship form the Republic of Macedonia and probably couldn't get it either, and thus can't vote, other than for their diaspora candidate which only hold one seat.



They are different in that they live in the Republic and are custodians to the Macedonian identity and nation. Like I said a large part of the Australian diaspora is from Aegean Macedonia, and rely heavily on Macedonians in the republic to protect their identity as a whole.



Okay if its universal then whats the point of that comment.



That is just a blatant lie, but then again I understand that is a part of your culture. Along with smashing plates.

Our little plate smashing Greek friend here is being very sneaky, subtle, sarcastic and underhanded Gocka.
Look at his “ Most threads are about internal issues of .... Greece” reply. He is implying very subtly and sarcastically that this being a Macedonian forum that it is basically a Greek forum.

[Pelagonija]

A further article has been released in response to the above:

http://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/they-started-it-macedonia-hits-back-over-racist-signs-in-melbourne/news-story/cac699dceb0a4599a654bd86cb8ef22c

‘They started it’: Macedonia hits back over ‘racist’ signs in Melbourne

A DECADES-long conflict has reignited, with “racist” signs and flags hanging in public. One side claims it all started with one offensive poster

“THEY started it”.

That’s the catchcry from members of the Macedonian community in Melbourne accused of erecting “racist” signs and defacing the Greek flag with phallic symbols.

News.com.au revealed on Wednesday how ugly tensions had flared in Melbourne. Signs reading “Greeks are Turks”, “F*** Greece for unfairness” and “F***ing racists” appeared on freeway bridges and Greek Orthodox churches last week.

A prominent member of the Greek Australian community, Chris Moutzikis, said the signs were “disgusting” and had been erected by “bigots” and “racists”.

But the Macedonian community has fired back, claiming they’ve been persecuted for too long and that Greek Australians are not the innocent victims.

“Racist slogans, you say?” one member of the Macedonian community wrote to news.com.au. “I find it racist when someone says Macedonia is Greek when clearly we’re not.”

IT’S COMPLICATED

The Macedonia issue is complex but at its most basic is about the dispute over land in the Balkan Peninsula that is half the size of Tasmania but home to some two million people.

It occupies a controversial place in Greek and Balkan history, subject to claims and counter-claims about identity, history and culture.

The greater Macedonia was divided following the end of the Second Balkan War and the signing of the Bucharest Treaty in 1913. Macedonians say they’ve been persecuted ever since.

The Republic of Macedonia was formed when it seceded from Yugoslavia in 1991. More than 130 countries, including the UK, US, Russia and China recognise the Republic of Macedonia by its constitutional name.

But Greece insists it has the rights to the name because Macedonia is already a region in the country’s north.

In Macedonia, people speak mostly Macedonian, a Slavic tongue, or Albanian. That’s entirely unrelated to the Greek spoken by Greek Macedonians.

The debate is continuing at a diplomatic level where leaders of both countries have shown a willingness to compromise. But increasingly, the conflict is being fought in communities overseas, including in Melbourne.

Peaceful rallies have been held — including one where leaders of the Greek community addressed crowds on Sunday. But ultranationalist sentiments have found their way into the mainstream.

Video of a Greek flag being burned was shared by a pro-Macedonian group on Facebook. But they say Greece started it with a sign on a building in Richmond.

Most say the back-end-forth is unhelpful and not a representation of either community.

‘WE ARE FED UP’

Many members of the Macedonian community were angered when a giant poster was erected on a building in Swan St, Richmond. It advertised the rally at the Greek Consulate in Melbourne and featured the words, in big bold letters, “Macedonia is Greek”.

A similar sign was hung from the same bridge over the Eastern Freeway where a defaced Greek flag was later spotted.

“The Greeks started this tension,” a user wrote on social media, pointing to the Swan St sign. The sign has since been removed.

Another sent pictures of the burning of a Macedonian flag with the words “Remember” and “This is your karma, bitch”. It’s not clear where or when either picture was taken.

A “proud Macedonian-Australian”, who was born there and now lives in Perth, told news.com.au he was disappointed in the actions of a few ultranationalists.

“I condemn hatred in any way, shape or form and wholeheartedly agree that as a democracy, we as people should have the right to voice our concerns, and it should be done so in a peaceful manner, free from hatred and racism towards others.”

He said he experienced discrimination growing up in Australia as early as primary school.

Another Macedonian-Australian wrote that “ultras are doing wrong but we as a people are fed up with how the Greeks have treated us for a very long time.”

Another Macedonian who asked to remain nameless told news.com.au “a lot of the signs erected around Melbourne are not there because of the Macedonian people”.

“We see those signs and are equally angry at people erecting signs of hate.”

The woman said her family “comes from the region that was split by the Bucharest Treaty and that is in Greece” and that she still sees the “tears in my father’s eyes” over the name dispute.

On Monday, the Macedonian Coalition wrote on Facebook: “Calling all Macedonians everywhere you live, Australia, Canada, Germany, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania and the Republic of Macedonia, this is your last call, there will be no more chances after this if we lose our identity, our name and our culture.

“I don’t want the next generations to grow in a world where culture is history and family is irrelevant.”

The group told news.com.au Macedonians are frustrated and that’s why the issue is boiling over.

“What we are seeing though is that Macedonians have had enough. The issue had basically become non-existent in Australia and the latest occurrence have brewed up old tensions. Denying a person’s identity would do these types of things.”

But Mr Moutzikis said attacks on Greek Australians had to stop.

“Those putting up offensive signs should leave the issue to people with sense and good will to find a solution,” he said.

A #March4Macedonia rally has been organised for Sunday, March 4. Mr Moutzikis urged members of the Greek community who were considering attending a counter-rally to think again.

He said he “condemned such idiotic behaviour”.

I've always been proud of the Melbourne maks.. renowned for giving the Greeks a good belting.. remember the gold old days Preston v Sth Melb pederi.

[Pelagonija]

http://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/community-leaders-fear-violence-ahead-of-march-for-macedonia-rally-in-melbourne/news-story/fe13e3ff761378a349067a335e6218fe

National
Victoria
Community leaders fear violence ahead of March for Macedonia rally
EXCLUSIVE

LEADERS of the Greek community in Melbourne say they’re “deeply disturbed” by rumours “hothead extremists” are planning to crash a March for Macedonia rally on Sunday.

The march through Melbourne’s CBD comes as tensions reach boiling point over the Macedonian name dispute.


News.com.au revealed on Wednesday signs reading “Greeks are Turks”, “F**k Greece for unfairness” and “F***ing racists” appeared on freeway bridges and Greek Orthodox churches last week.

A prominent member of the Greek Australian community, Chris Moutzikis, said the signs were “disgusting” and had been erected by “bigots” and “racists”.

The other side — from the small Balkan Peninsula country home to two million people — responded on Thursday, claiming Greek Australians were not “innocent victims”.

A #March4Macedonia rally will be held on Sunday in Melbourne.
A #March4Macedonia rally will be held on Sunday in Melbourne.Source:Facebook
The dispute involves claims and counterclaims about who owns the rights to the name “Macedonia”.

Greece claims it has the right because Macedonia is already a region in the country’s north. But the Republic of Macedonia claims the rights to the name, too, because before Yugoslavia disintegrated it had a republic called Macedonia.

It may sound absurd but to both countries the name is a source of massive historical significance and identity. And to some it’s used as an excuse for ultranationalism.

Last week, Greek Australians held a peaceful rally outside the Greek Consulate in Melbourne. This Sunday, a #March4Macedonia rally is taking place in support of Australian Macedonians. But fears are held the two communities could clash.

The Macedonia is Greek Human Rights Group on Facebook posted on Friday morning that “there’s strong rumours circulating around Melbourne streets that the Greeks are preparing a counter rally on Sunday at the Parliament”.

Some of the messages circulating on social media from extreme arms of both groups.
Some of the messages circulating on social media from extreme arms of both groups.Source:Supplied
The pro-Greece group referred to those marching on Sunday as “Fyromians”, a term that’s deemed derogatory because Macedonians believe it was “forced upon them”.

The group wrote: “Fyromians need to understand that we have every right to counter demonstrate.

“Word out from the north and western suburbs is that the Fyromians are upset to the point of getting armed with knives and baseball bats hidden in their children’s belongings.”

Mr Moutzikis slammed the counter protesters and called for peace. He said he was disappointed in those who insisted on protesting despite assurances they would stay away.

The director of the Pan-Macedonian Association of Melbourne and Victoria wrote: “(We) see this idiotic activity not as a brave and patriotic initiative but as a mindless and provocative action by hothead extremists.

A defaced Greek flag was hung from a busy Melbourne freeway last week.
A defaced Greek flag was hung from a busy Melbourne freeway last week.Source:Facebook
A poster plastered on the Greek Orthodox Church in North Balwyn last Sunday.
A poster plastered on the Greek Orthodox Church in North Balwyn last Sunday.Source:Supplied
“We condemn such behaviour and want to notify those responsible that their actions are no different to the ultranationalist thugs that provoke us from the other side. Such provocations especially at a time when emotions are high on both sides are likely to lead to violence. Have we not learned anything from the events in the ’90s?”

The period he refers to involved the shooting of a building used by the Association in Fitzroy.

While the back-and-forth spilt out on to Melbourne’s streets in recent weeks, diplomatic attempts are being made to settle the dispute once and for all.

UN envoy Matthew Nimetz was in the region earlier this month holding talks with Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and Macedonian Prime Minister Zoran Zaev.

Mr Zaev has showed willingness to compromise, saying he was open to accepting a “geographical qualifier” such as “new”, “upper” or “north” provided the new name “respects the dignity” of people in both countries.

[Risto the Great]

The Greeks are winning the media war. Lying cunts.

[Tomche Makedonche]

If you ask me it seems the Greeks are purposefully trying to create a perception of a violent element within the protests in the hopes that less Macedonians turn up or force the authorities to intervene and limit the scope of the protest

Basically they are trying to use the media to stop or hinder the protest from occurring

Well at least that’s the perception I get from these ongoing articles exclusively from news.com

I have no idea where they are getting this information from, some of the claims sound completely absurd

[Phoenix]

If you ask me it seems the Greeks are purposefully trying to create a perception of a violent element within the protests in the hopes that less Macedonians turn up or force the authorities to intervene and limit the scope of the protest

Basically they are trying to use the media to stop or hinder the protest from occurring

Well at least that’s the perception I get from these ongoing articles exclusively from news.com

I have no idea where they are getting this information from, some of the claims sound completely absurd

news.com is a pretty trashy site at the best of times...most of the stories that they run with are just sensationalist bullshit.

I think from day one of the name dispute the greeks have been full of shit and have always tried to play the victim...it's always about portraying the Macedonians as the aggressors and usurpers...I don't believe that anybody is falling for that shit anymore...the greeks have lost all credibility through their own general incompetence, economic mismanagement and endemic fraud...the glittering turd has truly lost its lustre...

[Amphipolis]

Well that would be one hell of a job to get paid for, to shoot the shit with the five of us.

I was an accountant yes, and I find it hard to believe that was a coincidence. You obviously dont understand a lot about the Macedonian diaspora. First a large portion are refugees from Aegean and Pirin Macedonia, and have no citizenship form the Republic of Macedonia and probably couldn't get it either, and thus can't vote, other than for their diaspora candidate which only hold one seat.

They are different in that they live in the Republic and are custodians to the Macedonian identity and nation. Like I said a large part of the Australian diaspora is from Aegean Macedonia, and rely heavily on Macedonians in the republic to protect their identity as a whole.

1. What on earth makes you think that? (just curious)

2. LOL, fuck, sorry. I was referring to Risto who (I thought) is an accountant. Anyway, my point was that age, profession and location don’t matter much and we are all equally powerful/ powerless as citizens.

3. I think I’ll insist on this. This isn’t so. The representation of diaspora is not small (as you imply) but larger than normal given that one MP corresponds to a very-very small number of voters. If I remember correctly one of three seats was recently left vacant as literally no one bothered to vote (i.e. less than a very low threshold). Secondly, I really doubt that people from Aegean Macedonia are denied citizenship in the Republic of Macedonia. Lately, I see too many people crying that they are stateless and usually this is a lie.

That is just a blatant lie, but then again I understand that is a part of your culture. Along with smashing plates.

Our little plate smashing Greek friend here is being very sneaky, subtle, sarcastic and underhanded Gocka.
Look at his “ Most threads are about internal issues of .... Greece” reply. He is implying very subtly and sarcastically that this being a Macedonian forum that it is basically a Greek forum.

It’s not a lie. This forum has explored the variation of Albanian populations in Peloponnesus and Vlachs in Thessaly during middle Ages more than the ones e.g. in Skopje and Monastir. It has explored modern and ancient Greek more than Old Church Slavonic and so on.