Does Macedonia belong to the Balkan or Aegean world

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  • Carlin
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 3332

    #16
    Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
    You said that Slavs are an ethno-linguistic group. What does that mean to you? The common definition is "a group that is unified by both a common ethnicity and language." Does that mean Poles and Macedonians are unified by a common ethnicity and language?
    Poles and Macedonians are not unified by a common ethnicity and language.

    Anyway, I don't intend to pursue this any further.

    Comment

    • Gocka
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 2306

      #17
      Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
      Poles and Macedonians are not unified by a common ethnicity and language.

      Anyway, I don't intend to pursue this any further.
      How can they not be unified if they are also Slavs and speak a Slavic dialect. So If Poles don't pass the test who does? With which other Slavic groups do we share a common ethnicity and language with?

      Ko ke se fatish na oro morat da go doigrash.

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        #18
        Originally posted by Carlin15
        Macedonia has always been at a crossroads of civilizations and cultures….
        In principle, I don’t have an issue with this phrase, except it is all too often used for Macedonia in isolation, as if other Balkans countries or regions weren’t influenced as much by different civilisations and cultures. One only needs to take a look at Bulgaria, Serbia or Romania and their proximity to the Danube, for example, to realise that these places have served as crossroads for more diverse peoples throughout history than Macedonia, which is nestled in the heart of the Balkans.
        Slavic world/civilization in a sense that Slavs are an Indo-European ethno-linguistic group....
        As others pointed out in this thread, the term “ethno-linguistic” is misleading. You used it for the different peoples who speak Slavic languages but you don’t apply the same terminology to the different peoples who speak Germanic languages, instead calling them “Germanic language speakers”. Is it really that hard for people to be consistent? Who on earth would ever refer to English people as “ethno-linguistic” Germanics? The commonality that Macedonians share with Russians, Poles, etc. is largely limited to belonging to the same language family (in addition to race and religion). Those in closer proximity such as Serbs, Bulgars, etc. naturally have some more in common.
        The DNA studies have also demonstrated that Macedonians do have some Slavic 'component...
        I will address this in a separate thread as it is a topic I have long wanted to discuss.
        Anyway, I don't intend to pursue this any further.
        I hope you do intend to stay in this and other similar discussions, because if you back out now you’re giving the impression that you think we’re a bunch of people who believe we are pure biological descendants of the ancient peoples devoid of any historical influences throughout the last 2,000 years – a thesis which is absolutely untrue and not supported by anybody here.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Gocka
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2012
          • 2306

          #19
          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post

          I hope you do intend to stay in this and other similar discussions, because if you back out now you’re giving the impression that you think we’re a bunch of people who believe we are pure biological descendants of the ancient peoples devoid of any historical influences throughout the last 2,000 years – a thesis which is absolutely untrue and not supported by anybody here.
          Thank you for pointing that out, I assumed it was a given but better that it is said.

          To expand further on what SOM touched on.

          You can not be Macedonian and not to some degree inherit all that it is to be Macedonian. The name Macedonia caries with it a long history which you can not just ignore and pretend like your history started in the 20th century. Otherwise why call your self Macedonian at all?

          The name Macedonia has its roots about 2500 years ago That doesn't mean my DNA, culture, or ethnic background go back that far. For all I know my recent ancestors could have came to Macedonia from anywhere, that is besides the point. That regions has been called Macedonia for 2500 years, and over that period of time 100's of peoples from all over the world have came and went, they have taken things and left things behind. All of those 100's of peoples together in one way or another contribute to what it is to be a Macedonian in 2019.

          The reason we call ourselves Macedonians, and not just whatever our last occupiers were, is because the only constant in those 2500 years is Macedonia. It doesn't matter who came there in what century, Macedonia was always a constant.

          Now to go further in the Slavic question. Again I have to ask, why does Slavic stick so much more than any other influence the people of Macedonia may have been exposed to? The Slavic influence wasn't the first nor was it the last. So why is it the only one that gets attached to Macedonians? You said it yourself Macedonians have some Slav DNA, the key word being some. If it is only some then why does that some supersede the rest. To my understanding most Macedonians show a relatively small percentage of Slav in their DNA.

          Like SOM said, why do we apply one standard when talking about Macedonians and a completely different one when talking about any other group.

          The way I see it Eastern Europe has only three binding traits.
          -Orthodox faith
          -Slavic language
          -Cyrillic Alphabet

          Only one of those 3 can be said to be Slavic. The Christian faith originates in the middle east, the Orthodox split from the Byzantine empire, neither are Slavic at all

          The written language derives from Greek script and was written in Macedonia by Macedonians in almost the most southern part of Macedonia.

          The Slavic root of the language is the only binding trait, and by that logic for us to identify as Slavic because of it, then there are only 3 ethnic groups in all of Europe. Germanic, Latin, and Slavic.

          That Slavic propaganda is how outsiders decided they would classify us. It is the history that others decided to write for us. The Slavic propaganda is rooted in peasant mentality.

          Macedonians lived in the mountains up until the last 70 years. I think people don't realize how inaccessible most parts of Macedonia were and how important of a fact that is. It took the Ottomans with their massive armies a couple of centuries before they could really conquer those mountainous regions. Those Slavs did not have nearly the impact that some would have us believe.

          The simple existence of Vlachs is proof of the limited impact of Slavs. The Vlachs were never anywhere near a majority in the region yet somehow they managed to retain language and culture to this day and throughout these Slav "invasions". If they were able to retain some unique characteristics then why wouldn't have Macedonians, or anyone else in the region?

          One day the truth will be known that we left much more to them (Slavs) than they did to us.

          Comment

          • maco2envy
            Member
            • Jan 2015
            • 288

            #20
            One day the truth will be known that we left much more to them (Slavs) than they did to us.
            Outside of language, this has already been confirmed, especially by genetics. People are just stuck in 18th-19th century bs.

            Comment

            • Carlin
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 3332

              #21
              Have you guys even read Krste Petkov Misirkov?

              I think you would consider his writings and theories more than "problematic" in terms of the Slavic question.

              Quotes:

              - Колко и да сет осноател'ни сите приведени возразуаiн'а на нашите противници против обшноста на македонцките словени и принадлежноста нивна кон iедно самостоiно словенцко цело, па ми се чинит, да можат да им се напраат и не по малечки контравозразуаiн'а, от коiи ке се видит, да националното самосознаiн'е и возродуаiн'е на македонцките словени iет нешчо многу обично и разбирливо.

              - Сформируаiн'ето на македонците во одделна словенцка народност iет,наi обичен историiцки процес подобен на процесот на образуаiн'ето на бугарцкиiо и србцко-хрватцкиiот народ од некогашните iужни словени.

              - И iедната и другата боiа не се држеше iако за колцата, и малу по малу боiите зафатиiа да се рушат и под ниф зафати да сиiат природната им боiа „словенцка" со одблеск „македонцки" од географцката област, во коiа сет распределени. Носителите на тиiе колца — наречиiа некога се викале „словени", а после, то бугари, то срби, до кога конкуренциiата на тиiа двата имиiн'а не и напраи боiите туг'и за македонцките словени, и они не зафатиiа да се именуваат со старото географцко име на своiата татжоина. Името македонец прво се употребуаше од македонцките словени, како географцки термин за покажуаiн'е на своiот происход. Тоа име iет обшчо известно на македонците словени и сите со него се именуваат.

              - И така имин'ата: србин, бугарин и грк си изслужиiа своiата служба во Македониiа и за ниф там немат поеке место. Време iет да заменит iедно обшчо за сите македонцки словени име — името „македонец".

              - Напоследок и мнозина македонци словени со грцко образуаiне ке се признаат за словени. Сега тиiе не го праат тоа, оти требит да се вел'ат бугари, а името бугарин у грците се стаит многу долу. После сите од македонците сет готои да напраат отстапки от своiа страна за обiединуаiн'е во iедно национално цело, но ни iеден от последуачите на трите национални пропаганди немат да изменит на своiата пропаганда, за да капитулират пред друга. Националното обiединуаiн'е на македонците можит да станит само со компромис мег'у ниф а не со капитулираiн'е на iедните пред друзите. А тоi компромис и iет ноото национално македонцко течеiн'е.

              - Да допушчиме и противното, оти сегашната борба наi после ке принудит Европа да се набркат во турцките работи и да принудат Турцко да даит равноправност на македонцките народи. Дали ниiе македонците (словените) во таков случаi ке можеме да се поздраиме со успеф? Мисл'ам не.

              URL:


              За македонцките работи е книга напишана од Крсте Петков Мисирков и обіавена во Софиіа во 1903 година. Книгата ги претставува погледите на еден од наіголемите македонисти и национални деіци кон македонското прашан'е, националната свест и пред сè кон македонскиот іазик. Во книгата се обработува тематиката за основан'е на стандарден македонски іазик, правопис и азбука.
              Last edited by Carlin; 02-09-2019, 10:58 PM.

              Comment

              • Karposh
                Member
                • Aug 2015
                • 863

                #22
                Misirkov's On Macedonian Matters was written at a time (late 19th Century) which roughly coincides with the growing ideological movement among the various Balkan peoples seeking independence from either the Ottomans or Austro-Hungarians, known as Pan Slavicism.

                Wikipedia actually touches a little on this phenomenon:

                Pan-Slavism, a movement which crystallized in the mid-19th century, is the political ideology concerned with the advancement of integrity and unity for the Slavic-speaking peoples. Its main impact occurred in the Balkans, where non-Slavic empires had ruled the South Slavs for centuries. These were mainly the Byzantine Empire, Austria-Hungary (both as separate entities for most of the period), the Ottoman Empire, and Venice.
                And this,

                Extensive pan-Slavism began much like Pan-Germanism, both of which grew from the sense of unity and nationalism experienced within ethnic groups after the French Revolution and the consequent Napoleonic Wars against European monarchies. Like other Romantic nationalist movements, Slavic intellectuals and scholars in the developing fields of history, philology, and folklore actively encouraged the passion of their shared identity and ancestry. Pan-Slavism also co-existed with the Southern Slavic independence.
                Misirkov, being a Macedonian intellectual, would not have been immune to these pan-Slavic influences.

                Comment

                • Tomche Makedonche
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2011
                  • 1123

                  #23
                  I know Slav, he’s a decent bloke
                  “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                  Comment

                  • Tomche Makedonche
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2011
                    • 1123

                    #24
                    You want to know why the idea of Slavdom is so predominant with Macedonians?, just listen to this SDS communist donkey and tell me you don’t want to throw a brick at his face

                    Within the next six months, it must rename state institutions, rewrite school textbooks and relabel public monuments.
                    Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 02-10-2019, 05:43 AM.
                    “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                    Comment

                    • Karposh
                      Member
                      • Aug 2015
                      • 863

                      #25
                      With the recent Slav Vs native Macedonian debate currently going on among members of this forum, I just wanted to share an interesting observation that I made at a recent wedding that I attended. The wedding in question was that of my much younger cousin who got married last weekend and was all the excuse my extended family needed to make sure that the whole world knew it was a Macedonian wedding. The decorated 16-ray Macedonian flag took its pride of place at the head of each dance during the morning festivities prior to the church ceremony. On leaving the house, there was the obligatory dancing on the street with music being provided by a very loud brass band to the amazement of on-lookers at both street level and from above, from windows and balconies of the surrounding apartment blocks. It was a hot day, which made it perfect conditions for the slapping of $50 & &100 notes on the musician's sweaty foreheads. This is all typical of a Macedonian wedding and everyone knows what I am describing but my observations are reserved, in particular, to the age-old Macedonian custom of the bread dance and the breaking of bread which symbolises the union of the young couple in Macedonian tradition. The dough for the bread is first kneaded by young girls under the watchful eyes of the older women while everyone dances around the whole scene. I should note that, technically, the girls kneading the dough must be virgins for some reason, which is why the older ladies just watch nearby and take no part in the preparation of the bread. When the bread is finally taken out of the oven and allowed to cool, it is decorated and the bread dance begins. It makes a subsequent appearance at the main wedding ceremony at night after which it is broken into pieces and everyone has a piece to eat.

                      This is a well known Macedonian wedding tradition that is present in most regions of geographical Macedonia. That is something everyone can be sure of. What I am not entirely sure about is if any of our surrounding neighbours, the Greeks, Bulgarians or Serbians have a similar wedding tradition. I read somewhere that only the Italians come close to having a similar custom but theirs involves cookies. Instead of, or in addition to, a wedding cake, Italian wedding receptions may include a table loaded with cookies. The bride and groom lead the guests on a "cookie dance" around the hall and, as they pass the dessert table, each guest takes a cookie. But this is hardly the same thing.

                      So what is so fascinating about the Macedonian wedding bread dance that has caused me to make a note of it and attach it to the current Slav Vs native Macedonian debate? Well, coincidentally, the Ancient Macedonians also had a similar bread ritual during their own wedding ceremonies. The Roman historian, Quintus Curtius Rufus, records the follwing description of Alexander's marriage to the Sogdian princess, Roxana:
                      Roxane's father was transported with unexpected delight when he heard Alexander's words, and the king, in the heat of passion, ordered bread to be brought, in accordance with their traditions, for this was the most sacred symbol of betrothal among the Macedonians. (Curt.8.4.27).

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        #26
                        What is fascinating is that you found some Macedonian virgins.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Karposh
                          Member
                          • Aug 2015
                          • 863

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                          What is fascinating is that you found some Macedonian virgins.
                          LOL. I'm hearing you. The girls kneading the bread seem to be getting younger at each wedding I go to. I was actually joking with my sister how come the other girls, who are in their mid-teens, aren't joining in

                          Comment

                          • Karposh
                            Member
                            • Aug 2015
                            • 863

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                            You want to know why the idea of Slavdom is so predominant with Macedonians?, just listen to this SDS communist donkey and tell me you don’t want to throw a brick at his face

                            https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/...095952353.html
                            Their (SDS) whole ideology is based on rubbishing the idea that we have any connection with the Ancient Macedonians in the eyes of the world and promoting the Slav element. This presents a confusing picture for anyone outside of Macedonia wanting to get a feel for the national sentiments of Macedonians with regard to their own understanding of who they are and how they want to be portrayed. So long as this continues, the "Slav" tag associated with Macedonia will go on forever I'm afraid. We got rid of Amphipolis because he dared to call us the Slavs of Macedonia (and rightly so) but our own treacherous people are polluting our self identification from inside. It shouldn't surprise us then when they call us the Slavs of Macedonia when our own politicians are selling such a closed-minded and short-sighted narrative of who we are to the rest of the world.

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13670

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                              Have you guys even read Krste Petkov Misirkov?
                              Yes, we have. Have you? Have you taken into consideration the era he was writing in and the various influences he was subjected to? Does he at any point refer to all of the people who speak Slavonic languages as an "ethno-linguistic" group? If you're so fond of quoting him, why don't you also mention the fact that he considered the mission of Cyril and Methodius as one of spreading the Macedonian word and script among all the Slavic peoples? Do you agree with that assertion? Even in the part you highlighted he says:
                              Името македонец прво се употребуаше од македонцките словени, како географцки термин за покажуаiн'е на своiот происход.
                              To demonstrate their origin. Does Misirkov refer to the ancestors of his people being largely descended from tribes that crossed the Danube in the 6th century? Do you know that Misirkov himself believed that the independent study of Macedonian history had only began during his era? What you're doing is cherry-picking some quotes from a guy that clearly went through turbulent times in his life and using that as some sort of ammunition. It's a pathetic and intellectually dishonest tactic that is more reminiscent of some Bulgar idiot than somebody that is supposed to be for Macedonia and the Macedonian Cause.
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                #30
                                Originally posted by nushevski77 View Post
                                ....the title was to long I just realized so it was cut off but the title is the question basically
                                Don’t write such long titles when you create threads because it will not fit all of the words. I have shortened the title of this thread.
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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