Possible Etymology of Alexander

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  • spitfire
    Banned
    • Aug 2014
    • 868

    Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
    It should also be noted that -ndro is retained in several Latin cases:

    Greek/Latin
    Nominative: Alexandros/Alexander,
    Genitive: Alexandrou/ Alexandri
    Accusative: Alexandron/ Alexandrum
    Dative: Alexandro(h)/ Alexandro
    Ablative: (Greeks don't have this)/Alexandro
    Vocative: Alexandre/ Alexander
    Don't expect this to be understood. According to etymology presented so far, Vasil describes someone in power without linearity for the etymology. In this sense it could be popeye having eaten his spinach.

    Comment

    • Philosopher
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 1003

      Originally posted by Spitfire
      So what does the name alexandar mean in macedonian? Let's say that dar is a gift, what do the other components mean? We already found that there are missing links, therefore the obvious ]solution is to go to where there aren't missing links, and that was in greek.
      Not related to this present discussion. But I will answer it anyway.

      We all know that Alexandros is Greek. We all know what the name means. That is not the point of this thread. The purpose of this thread is to give a possible etymology to the name Aleksandar (Aleksaandar). This is built on the assumption that his original name was Aleksandar, not Alexandros.

      We do not know what “Aleksandar” means. We are speculating.

      The problem with this word Vasil or any other etymology is that it is not consistent. Bozidar consists of two very apparent meanings. Vasil on the other hand does not. Vasil is like Napoleon, Bozidar isn't.
      This is not a valid argument.

      Napoleon is of unknown origin. There is nothing in “Napoleon”, when broken down etymologically, to mean anything.

      It is possibly derived from the Germanic Nibelungen, the name of a race of dwarfs in Germanic legend, which meant "sons of mist". Alternatively, it could be connected to the name of the Italian city of Napoli (Naples).
      So you are going on record and stating that a word with no etymological meaning and no certain derivation, is equal to the word Vasil?

      Va means “in”.

      Sil means “power”. It has cognates, including sila and silan. All describe power. This word is commonly used in basic grammar.

      Together, the two words form a name that is both a name and a title of someone. It is entirely possible in the distant past the word “Vasil” had a greater meaning than it does today. It is entirely possible, and certainly not against the laws of the language, for the word to have been used as a verb or an adjective.

      Here is what is odd.

      Here we have a Greek word “Vasileus” which is spelled exactly the same as the Macedonian name “Vasil”. In Greek, this word has no etymological meaning. In Macedonian, whether by coincidence or not, the name has meaning. And also seemingly by coincidence, not only is it spelled exactly the same, its root meaning conveys that of a person in power, which is a basic understanding of a prince or a king.

      To understand this better, you seem to forget that your etymology of Vasil consists of an action. It is understandable why this action needs to find itself in other words. But it doesn't.
      This is not the same case as Bozidar.
      This is not a valid argument.

      The action does not need to find itself in other words. Period. And again this assumes in the past it did not have greater use in the language or that it could not be used today in a similar manner.

      It seems you are a master chameleon Spitfire. Your argument keeps changing to accommodate problems in your theories.

      I would rather you state that “just because the word 'Vasil' is spelled the same as 'Vasileus' and the word conveys a person in power, does not mean that the Greek word Vasileus borrows from Vasil or depends on it".
      Last edited by Philosopher; 09-29-2014, 11:58 AM.

      Comment

      • spitfire
        Banned
        • Aug 2014
        • 868

        As I said earlier Philosopher. It could mean popeye after eating his spinach.

        You will have to establish a linearity first in order for me to state what you 'd rather see as a statement of mine.

        I can't go on like this, presenting examples and be faced with apparent problematic presumptions and efforts trying to alter the obvious, instead of examples that would give another meaning with etymological rules and from there have a discussion.

        This is not the case so far. The point about the need of a verb is valid. That's how languages work. When this is not the case, then it is most probable that the language is using a vehicle of meaning from another language, and to this a proof is that it doesn't use it for any other purpose because it has no use for it. It can do without it.
        Last edited by spitfire; 09-29-2014, 11:58 AM.

        Comment

        • Philosopher
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1003

          Originally posted by spitfire View Post
          As I said earlier Philosopher. It could mean popeye after eating his spinach.

          You will have to establish a linearity first in order for me to state what you 'd rather see as a statement of mine.

          I can't go on like this, presenting examples and be faced with apparent problematic presumptions and efforts trying to alter the obvious, instead of examples that would give another meaning and from there have a discussion.

          This is not the case so far.
          Spitfire, would you agree or disagree that the word Vasil means "in power"?

          Comment

          • spitfire
            Banned
            • Aug 2014
            • 868

            Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
            Spitfire, would you agree or disagree that the word Vasil means "in power"?
            It means In Power but not in one word. It doesn't mean "empowered", if that's what you are asking. It is how this name is in macedonian.

            Comment

            • Philosopher
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 1003

              Originally posted by spitfire View Post
              It means In Power but not in one word.
              Does Bozihdar mean "divine gift" in one word?

              Does Georgios mean "earth worker" in one word?

              It doesn't mean "empowered", if that's what you are asking. It is how this name is in macedonian.
              I never wrote it means "empowered".

              Comment

              • spitfire
                Banned
                • Aug 2014
                • 868

                Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                Does Bozihdar mean "divine gift" in one word?

                Does Georgios mean "earth worker" in one word?
                Yes and yes. They both don't need to be used as verbs.

                Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                I never wrote it means "empowered".
                Well choose another word in english that suits better your explanation to convey the meaning. Don't be so stiff. Relax.

                Comment

                • Philosopher
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1003

                  Originally posted by spitfire View Post
                  Yes and yes. They both don't need to be used as verbs.
                  No. Bozihdar is not one word. Bozihdar consists of two separate words joined together to form one name.

                  No. Georgios is not one word. Georgios consists of two separate words joined together to form one name.

                  Vasil also consists of two separate words joined together to form one name.

                  These names consist of two words. These names are not one word/one name meanings like the Macedonian names "Stojan", "Bojan", or "Dragan".

                  "Bozy" cannot both mean "divine" and "gift".

                  Geo cannot both mean "earth" and "worker".

                  And Va cannot both mean "in" and "power".

                  Well choose another word in english that suits better your explanation to convey the meaning. Don't be so stiff. Relax.
                  I gave you the literal meaning of Vasil -- in power. I never wrote it means "empowered".

                  Comment

                  • spitfire
                    Banned
                    • Aug 2014
                    • 868

                    Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                    No. Bozihdar is not one word. Bozihdar consists of two separate words joined together to form one name.

                    No. Georgios is not one word. Georgios consists of two separate words joined together to form one name.

                    Vasil also consists of two separate words joined together to form one name.

                    These names consist of two words. These names are not one word/one name meanings like the Macedonian names "Stojan", "Bojan", or "Dragan".

                    "Bozy" cannot both mean "divine" and "gift".

                    Geo cannot both mean "earth" and "worker".

                    And Va cannot both mean "in" and "power".
                    Yes. So? Are you using Vasil to describe someone in power? Or are you using it as a name only? Would you convey Vasil for a prime minister? Would you say that this prime minister is Vasil? Or would you say that he is Va Sil?

                    Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                    I gave you the literal meaning of Vasil -- in power. I never wrote it means "empowered".
                    You gave me what you presume the word consists of.

                    Comment

                    • Philosopher
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1003

                      Originally posted by spitfire View Post
                      Yes. So? Are you using Vasil to describe someone in power? Or are you using it as a name only? Would you convey Vasil for a prime minister? Would you say that this prime minister is Vasil? Or would you say that he is Va Sil?
                      Neither. We have separate words for such descriptions. Let me explain. If I were to speak of something being a "Divine gift", like me winning the lottery, I would not use the name "Bozihdar", a male name, to describe such an event. This does not negate the fact that Bozihdar means "divine gift".

                      Likewise, I would not call a prime minster "Vasil" or "Va" "Sil" because in Macedonian proper names of people are not used in such ways.

                      This does not negate the meaning of Vasil. Moreover, it does not mean that in the past the words "Bozihdar" and "Vasil" were perhaps used differently. Perhaps not.
                      It matters nothing as to the meaning of these names.

                      Imported names in Macedonian have no etymological meaning. For example, the name Peter (Petros) has no etymological meaning in Macedonian. It is a foreign name. Vasil is not a foreign name. It means "in power".

                      You can argue that the Macedonian Vasil is a different name than the Greek name Vasileus or Vassileos or what not, but you cannot argue that in Macedonian this name does not have inherent meaning but in Greek it does.

                      Would you agree or disagree with this?

                      Comment

                      • spitfire
                        Banned
                        • Aug 2014
                        • 868

                        Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                        Neither. We have separate words for such descriptions. Let me explain. If I were to speak of something being a "Divine gift", like me winning the lottery, I would not use the name "Bozihdar", a male name, to describe such an event. This does not negate the fact that Bozihdar means "divine gift".
                        Of course. That's what I'm saying. So using Va and Sil together does not convey any meaning of being in power. Thank you for this. This is what I've been saying.

                        Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                        Likewise, I would not call a prime minster "Vasil" or "Va" "Sil" because in Macedonian proper names of people are not used in such ways.
                        Are you absolutely sure about this? Because if you are then it adds up to what I have been saying.

                        Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                        This does not negate the meaning of Vasil. Moreover, it does not mean that in the past the words "Bozihdar" and "Vasil" were perhaps used differently. Perhaps not.
                        It matters nothing as to the meaning of these names.
                        If this does not negate the meaning of Vasil, then what does?

                        Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                        Imported names in Macedonian have no etymological meaning. For example, the name Peter (Petros) has no etymological meaning in Macedonian. It is a foreign name. Vasil is not a foreign name. It means "in power".
                        Here we go again... . In order to prove this you need to tell me ways of using that name other than the name. So far you say that there isn't any other use than the name.

                        Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                        You can argue that the Macedonian Vasil is a different name than the Greek name Vasileus or Vassileos or what not, but you cannot argue that in Macedonian this name does not have inherent meaning but in Greek it does.

                        Would you agree or disagree with this?
                        What I can argue is this, that Vasil, comes from Βασίλειος (Vasileios) but I can't give you a meaning prior to that, this means that etymologically it is not known where it comes from prior to that. This is what I call linearity. One possible explanation already given by me is that it comes from quasar, god knows what language is this, and that quasar is related to Ceasar. I can't see a direct correlation but since I can't give another etymological explanation I accept it.
                        You are saying that Vasil is macedonian because in some strange linguistic way it means in power.
                        Linearity and linguistics are not in favor of this.

                        Comment

                        • Philosopher
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1003

                          Originally posted by spitfire View Post
                          Of course. That's what I'm saying. So using Va and Sil together does not convey any meaning of being in power. Thank you for this. This is what I've been saying.
                          Vasil is a name. Similar to all Macedonian names, it is not used as an adjective or verb. The name means "in power". By your logic, the name "Bozihdar" does not convey any meaning of being a "divine gift" because it is never used as such.

                          For the life of me...

                          Are you absolutely sure about this? Because if you are then it adds up to what I have been saying.
                          It does not add up to what you are saying at all. Anymore than Bozihdar or any other Macedonian name add up to what you wrote.

                          If this does not negate the meaning of Vasil, then what does?
                          Vasil means "in power". This is an etymological fact. It does not negate the meaning of the name anymore than the meaning of Bozihdar is negated.

                          Here we go again... . In order to prove this you need to tell me ways of using that name other than the name. So far you say that there isn't any other use than the name.
                          This same principle applies to all Macedonian names. This is like saying because Bozihdar is not used in any other sense other than as a name then it has no meaning or the name is borrowed.

                          What I can argue is this, that Vasil, comes from Βασίλειος (Vasileios) but I can't give you a meaning prior to that, this means that etymologically it is not known where it comes from prior to that. This is what I call linearity. One possible explanation already given by me is that it comes from quasar, god knows what language is this, and that quasar is related to Ceasar. I can't see a direct correlation but since I can't give another etymological explanation I accept it.
                          You are saying that Vasil is macedonian because in some strange linguistic way it means in power.
                          Linearity and linguistics are not in favor of this.
                          If Vasil comes from the Greek Vasileios you would expect the Greek name to have etymological meaning and the Macedonian name to be borrowed. For example, the Greek name Georgios has meaning. In Macedonian, Djordji (George) has no meaning.

                          What you are claiming, however, is the opposite. You are claiming a name in Macedonain Vasil, which has meaning in Macedonian, but has no meaning in Greek, comes from the Greek.

                          What you are suggesting, however, is that a Greek name, which is borrowed from an unknown language, was adopted in Macedonia and although this name means "in power" in Macedonian, it does not convey "in power".

                          This is not logic Spitfire.

                          Comment

                          • spitfire
                            Banned
                            • Aug 2014
                            • 868

                            The name does not convey someone in power philosopher. You are getting illogical not me. You suppose it means something based on random words that you see in the name.

                            Comment

                            • Philosopher
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 1003

                              There appears to be a serious credibility problem with you Spitfire. Let me briefly document.

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              The only way to see things clearly through statistics is to use them in a scientific manner. The only way to do this is with a study.

                              Here's the only serious study ever made on gun control by Harvard University.

                              WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE
                              MURDER AND SUICIDE?
                              Here you wrote that Harvard University composed a study on gun control in support of your thesis. But in fact, this statement was factually incorrect.

                              Dragan called you out on this:

                              Originally posted by Dragan of Stip
                              This isn't a study made by Harvard University,it's only published in it’s Journal of Public Law and Policy. This is a study made by 2 people that just happened to publish it in this journal.
                              Dragan then stated you were caught lying.

                              Originally posted by Dragan of Stip
                              And the way you wanted to present the readers that it was a study made by Harvard University instead...That was very naughty of you,spitty. You've been caught lying and deliberately avoided speaking out regarding that. But I guess you've been reading Mauser's "Manipulating Public Opinion" so thought of giving it a go,right?
                              You refused to give an account for this. Instead, you wrote:

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              I am not - let me make this clear: AM NOT - going to answer anything to someone that hasn't answered a single question since the begining, despite the fact that he was given answers when asking. It would be a lack of self-respect.

                              Thank you.
                              You refused to retract your statements or issue an apology.

                              In another thread, you made the following statement to SoM:

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              Here's one used by philosopher also.
                              http://www.behindthename.com/name/cassander
                              I followed up your post with:

                              Originally posted by Philosopher
                              Can you please provide me a citation or reference of where I stated or suggested anything at all about the name Cassander?
                              No response or retraction has thus far been given.

                              In discussing the origin of the Greek alphabet, you wrote:

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              Yes, so? Slavic alphadet derived from greek alphabet that derived from phoenician alphabet (probably).
                              SoM then asked you what the other probability was. You wrote:

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              The other probabilities are linear A', linear B', Indo-european etc
                              This was a problematic statement.

                              Originally posted by SoM
                              Indo-European is a reconstructed language, not an alphabet. How many examples can you cite from the Linear A or B alphabets which look like the Greek alphabet?
                              You responded with:

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              This point was made in order to show that greek had to come from somewhere. According to scholars linear A and B could be an origin.
                              Now mind you, the original question was about the origin of the Greek alphabet. But you shifted the argument from the alphabet to the Greek language.

                              SoM, naturally, called you out on this:

                              Originally posted by SoM
                              Of course it had to have come from somewhere. But there is no such thing as an "indo-european" alphabet (which you alluded to). That was my point.
                              Instead of acknowledging your error, you only continued it:

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              I did not allude to anything of the sort. I said that greek comes from another language or other languages. That was the point. These languages evolved and formulated greek, as it happens with all languages.
                              SoM called you out again on your error:

                              Originally posted by SoM
                              No, you didn't (at least not in that sentence). You brought into question the Phoenician origin of the Greek alphabet (post #93), I asked you what the other probability was (post #150), and you suggested one as "Indo-european" (post #151). The point of discussion related to the Greek alphabet, not the language. You've obviously confused the two.
                              Again, rather than admit your error, you continued it:

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              I did not confuse anything. I mentioned the point I was making, so your emphasis on what is and what is not is redundant
                              SoM yet again called you out:

                              Originally posted by SoM
                              The point of discussion related to the alphabet, not the language. Period. If you want it to mean something else in your own mind then go right ahead, but don't insult my intelligence in the process.
                              In the same thread, you have made similar deceptive pronouncements.

                              Originally posted by Philosopher
                              Thank you Spitfire.

                              However, that is not what I mean. Let me explain and please correct me if I err.

                              The English name "George" derives from Greek (geo=earth) and (ergos=worker, energy). "Earth worker" or "farmer" is the meaning of George.

                              I know Basileus means king. What I would like to know is whether you can break down this word in simpler forms. In Macedonian "va" means "in" and "sil" means power. Vasil or Basil means "in power".

                              Can you do that in Greek?
                              Your response:

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              You are not breaking it down in correct linguistic terms. The correct linguistic breaking of the word would be Bas and the next word.
                              This statement stated or implied something not found in the discussion.

                              Originally posted by Philosopher
                              I'm not following. I never attempted to break down the Greek "Basileus". I was asking you if it can be broken down similar to how "George" can be broken down. All I did was break down the Macedonian word "vasil" which corresponds to the Greek "Vasilleos", both of which are common names.
                              Rather than admitting your error, you continued it again.

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              Well I did break it for you didn't I?
                              I called you out on this:

                              Yes you did, But that is not the issue. The issue is that you wrote that I did not break down the word correctly. But in truth, I never attempted to break it down. I only broke down the Macedonian word "vasil" and "George".
                              Even after this, you still did not acknowledge your error.

                              In the same thread, you made a similar deceptive pronouncement.

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              All these names have a direct meaning in greek. Can you show me any other language that these names have a meaning? Not like Vasil which is a made up etymology that doesn't follow etymological rules. For instance there is no other example nor it is used in any other word than a name.
                              I called you out on this.

                              Originally posted by Philosopher
                              Spitfire, the problem we have is that you are inconsistent in your approach. Let me give an example. The name “Bozihdar” is composed of two words bozy and dar. You would agree that this name is Slavic, right? No one uses this name, which is composed of two Slavic words, as a verb or adjective. It is used as a noun.

                              Now, just because this name is used only as a name does not mean its etymology is “made up” and “doesn't follow etymological rules”, does it?

                              Vasil follows the same pattern as Bozihdar. It is composed of two words in Slavic. It has etymological meaning in Slavic. It is used as a noun. This does not mean it is made up.

                              Be consistent.
                              Rather than admit it, you continued your error.

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              The problem with this word Vasil or any other etymology is that it is not consistent. Bozidar consists of two very apparent meanings. Vasil on the other hand does not. Vasil is like Napoleon, Bozidar isn't.

                              To understand this better, you seem to forget that your etymology of Vasil consists of an action. It is understandable why this action needs to find itself in other words. But it doesn't.
                              This is not the same case as Bozidar. You can't Bozidarize the same as you can't Theodorize (greek equivalent) because it is not an action that requires a verb. But you do Vasilize in greek whereas you don't Vasilize in macedonian. That's linguistics. It's not that simple.
                              My response to your statement (in part).

                              Originally posted by Philosopher
                              It seems you are a master chameleon Spitfire. Your argument keeps changing to accommodate problems in your theories.
                              And finally, since neither time nor energy permits, the following:

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              The name does not convey someone in power philosopher. You are getting illogical not me. You suppose it means something based on random words that you see in the name.
                              But “Vasileos” means king, because it means “king” in Greek, even though the whole point of this discussion was strictly etymological, and even though this word in Greek has no etymological meaning. But random words like “va” and “sil”, which are not random at all, since that is the name, both have individual meaning, this amounts to nothing. Your argument is that Vasil does not mean “in power” simply because this name is used as a name only and not as a title for a prime minster, even though virtually all Macedonian names follow the same pattern.

                              I rest my case.

                              Comment

                              • Nikolaj
                                Member
                                • Aug 2014
                                • 389

                                Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                                I rest my case.


                                But really, it is true.

                                Please Spitfire,

                                I have great respect for honest and rational discussion, and no respect for distortion and misrepresentation.

                                Comment

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