Edinstveni Makedonski Zborovi - Unique Macedonian Words (postable)

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    It's OK Deni ... as long as my sons know what to do when a chupe walks by .... it will be fine.

    cheers
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      Originally posted by Deni
      But what are the arguments suggesting otherwise?
      That you're arguments aren't conclusive.
      the secret languages lexically influenced by Albanian
      distribution (related to aforementioned secret languages as use is limited to southwestern dialects)
      What secret languages? What do you mean?
      isn't derived from a Slavic root
      It doesn't have to be, for it to be Macedonian.
      absence in other languages (except for Greek, see next point)
      Elaborate on the relevance of that point.
      considered an Albanian loan by Greek and Macedonian scholars
      I would hardly consider any Greek 'scholar' an authority on the Macedonian language, and who else besides Koneski makes the claim?
      Meaning its use in Albania is not restricted to a particular dialect or dialect area (as opposed to the situation in Macedonia where it is markedly dialectal).
      So it is used commonly and in everyday speech by Albanians, is that it? Can you cite some examples? It is not that I necessarily disagree with you, but I think this needs to be further corroborated before it gains acceptance, so far I haven't seen anything that can be considered 'concrete'.
      No, an ordinary person who uses this word in their vernacular would not pick it as coming from a foreign source (morphophonologically).
      But they would surely know that it is from a foreign source, just like ordinary Macedonians use words like 'jorgan' in their vernacular, who still know it is Turkish by origin. I don't agree, you're trying to tell me that some merchants passed on a word to Macedonians through secret languages where Albanians don't have a historical presence, yet, where the Albanians are present, the word was not passed on to Macedonians. It doesn't add up.
      Yes, he's from Bulgaria. He also studied at the faculty of philology at the university in Veliko Tarnovo, Bulgaria.
      Like I said, a Bulgar blogger with a piece of paper, as valid as his Greek equivalent.
      I can't satisfactorily answer your question as I don't know what you understand a 'local construct' to be.
      I do apologise for my lack of 'formal' terminology that you seem so well versed in, but i'm sure you understand the point i'm trying to make. I don't know what the root was, but can the possibility of it being a nickname for a female that was initially based on slang terminology be ruled out as an example? Is it at all possible, in your mind, that the Macedonians may have actually passed on something to the other people of the Balkans, or is such a notion absolutely out of the question? Answer with an open mind and not one with a pre-conceived notion.
      While the theory for a Paleo-Balkan substrate might fill some gaps, it cannot be proven with any certainty.
      What is your opinion on Paleo-Balkan words such as 'Osseria(tes)', which stands for 'lake' in Illyrian, and its relation to Macedonian and other Slavic languages? There are several other examples which I am happy to cite, but I would like to know what you think about this one first.
      The answer to that question is very complex.

      Various stages in the development of Macedonian dialects < Proto-Slavic < PIE.
      Give it a shot, I am interesting in your opinion.

      I am still not satisfied with your explanation regarding the word 'krevet', so I will ask again, what does it mean in Greek? And how exactly does 'krevati' qualify as the word descended from the ancient equivalent but 'krevet' doesn't? You are making this assumption based on your belief that (at least a form of) our language wasn't in the Balkans prior to the 6th century, correct?
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Вардарец
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 122

        Hey,

        What about the word "чунки (зарем)". Its an old Macedonian word, i've seen it in "Народни приказни" as well some elder people who are still using it. I haven't seen any of our neighbors using it.
        For the glory of the Hellenes! Abandon orthodoxy and join your true religion! http://www.hellenicreligion.gr/... Zeus awaits you!

        Comment

        • Вардарец
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 122

          Guys,

          Yet another word - Секогаш (forever). Bulgarians say Винаги/Завинаги, SerboCroats Uvek/Zauvek.
          For the glory of the Hellenes! Abandon orthodoxy and join your true religion! http://www.hellenicreligion.gr/... Zeus awaits you!

          Comment

          • Вардарец
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 122

            Originally posted by Mastika View Post
            Not every dialect could have been used/encompassed. The codified language was developed for all Macedonians, North, South, East and West. The Prilep-Bitola dialect was a good choice for the literary langauage to be based on. There is no point basing it on the Kostur dialect, which is sufficiently different to the dialects spoken by the rest of the Macedonian people. Besides seeing as most Macedonians live in the RoM it only logical to have the majority of the language derived from there.
            Indeed, the codified language was based on the Bitola - Prilep dialects. The northern aegean dialects, mainly the Lerinsko ones are very close to the Bitolski.

            But, it is the modern Skopje dialect that is the closest to the codified language.
            For the glory of the Hellenes! Abandon orthodoxy and join your true religion! http://www.hellenicreligion.gr/... Zeus awaits you!

            Comment

            • Вардарец
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 122

              Sorry for hijacking this thread and spamming post by post... But i have just been reminded of one more word

              The word is "Прашање, Прашува (Question, questions, questioning)". The equivalent Bulgarian and Serbian terms are : Въпрос / Питање (Question) , Пита / Пита (Questions).

              This thread is pretty interesting, i am pretty sure we can dig out/find thousands of unique Macedonian words if we use our heads.

              Remember, you can always use google translate to check the Bulgarian, Serbian, Albanian, Greek etc "versions" of the words.
              For the glory of the Hellenes! Abandon orthodoxy and join your true religion! http://www.hellenicreligion.gr/... Zeus awaits you!

              Comment

              • Risto the Great
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 15658

                In Lerin it is Пита.
                Прашање is what you do on the farm.


                Welcome back.
                Risto the Great
                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                Comment

                • Вардарец
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 122

                  Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                  In Lerin it is Пита.
                  Прашање is what you do on the farm.


                  Welcome back.
                  Здраво Ристе ... I am here all the time, reading and screening

                  Пита is also used in Eastern Macedonia, but i haven't heard it in the western parts, ever.
                  For the glory of the Hellenes! Abandon orthodoxy and join your true religion! http://www.hellenicreligion.gr/... Zeus awaits you!

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    Kai si be Voya, se zagina i ne se vrate, se e dobro?

                    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                    In Lerin it is Пита.
                    Прашање is what you do on the farm.
                    In Bitola it is Прашање. Пита is some sort of flat Arab bread
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Дени
                      Member
                      • May 2010
                      • 136

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      That you're arguments aren't conclusive.
                      That's a non-argument.

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      What secret languages? What do you mean?
                      Tradesmen in the southwest spoke 'secret languages' (as they're usually called in Macedonian texts) amongst themselves for various reasons.

                      Cepenkov wrote a fictional conversation between two boot-makers from Prilep in their argot (I added the blue translation):

                      Петре: А бре Ристе, апо, ако се тѫрзаш на шарена, за да се саiкалиш, викни ме и мене.
                      Петре: А бре Ристе, чичко, ако одиш во црква да се молиш, викни ме и мене.

                      Ристе: Пуна имам: кье варам орденка, да затоа не кье се тѫрзам.
                      Ристе: Работа имам: ќе варам ракија, затоа нема да одам.

                      Петре: Поапсико би било, апо, да iа остаиш пуната и да се одгураме на шарена; како што сме посни, да го слушаме мѫрморецот, што кье мѫрмори.
                      Петре: Подобро би било, чичко, да ја оставиш работата и да одиме во црква; бидејќи сме христијани, да го слушаме свештеникот што ќе чита.

                      Ристе: Море, арно ет, внучко, да се отѫрзаме на шарена, ами пильавкьи си немам пѫрво за пантик да си купам да наранам мануката со манучиньата, — акьиваш, што ти кажувам?
                      Петре: Море, добро е, внуче, да одиме во црква, но пари немам прво за леб да си купам, да ја нахранам жената со дечињата, — разбираш што ти велам?
                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      It doesn't have to be, for it to be Macedonian.
                      I don't know what you mean. How is that possible?

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      and who else besides Koneski makes the claim?
                      Friedman does.

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      So it is used commonly and in everyday speech by Albanians, is that it? Can you cite some examples?
                      Vajzë, gocë and çupë are all used and from what I've been told, interchangeable.

                      I guess you could probably find some folk songs on YouTube or something like that.

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      before it gains acceptance
                      But it is already accepted as an Albanian loan.

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      But they would surely know that it is from a foreign source, just like ordinary Macedonians use words like 'jorgan' in their vernacular, who still know it is Turkish by origin.
                      You really think so? I don't see how anyone would think it was Turkish without actually knowing it was Turkish.

                      Јорган, шеќер, боја, etc., do not strike me as being foreign (I do, however, know they are) let alone Turkish to an uninformed person.

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      yet, where the Albanians are present, the word was not passed on to Macedonians. It doesn't add up.
                      Think of the English-French language contact in Quebec where English speakers use French calques (and perceive them as such) while an ordinary English speaker in the US might not even guess genre to be a French loan.

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      but can the possibility of it being a nickname for a female that was initially based on slang terminology be ruled out as an example?
                      Considering it was something [opportunely] found on Google Books that contradicts two (for now) of the most notable scholars in this field — yes.

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      Is it at all possible, in your mind, that the Macedonians may have actually passed on something to the other people of the Balkans
                      Not only is it possible, it's true.

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      What is your opinion on Paleo-Balkan words such as 'Osseria(tes)', which stands for 'lake' in Illyrian, and its relation to Macedonian and other Slavic languages?
                      Did you see that in Vasmer's dictionary?

                      Apparently Meillet rules out a connection to Osseriates, but without a copy of his dictionary I can tell you why exactly...

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      You are making this assumption based on your belief that (at least a form of) our language wasn't in the Balkans prior to the 6th century, correct?
                      No, but I don't believe our language (or the ancestor of our language, rather) is indigenous to the Balkans.

                      It's important we don't deny ourselves as being indigenous to the region on the basis of language either.

                      I haven't had much time recently as I'm preparing to go back home to see family. I will try and respond to your questions as soon as possible.
                      Last edited by Дени; 05-18-2010, 08:48 AM.

                      Comment

                      • osiris
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 1969

                        where do you think our language originates deni

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          Deni is a subscriber to the 'Slav Migration' theory, so he allows no room for any possibilities outside of that narrative, which is unfortunate.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • osiris
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1969

                            i too was a slav migration theory subscriber until a few points made by curta and alinei made me realise how illogical the theory was , so if our language is not from the balkans why was there a city in macedonia called belazora why is the word for the column support in greek called a krepinosi why is apollos mother called leto, to name a few.

                            Comment

                            • Дени
                              Member
                              • May 2010
                              • 136

                              Originally posted by osiris View Post
                              i too was a slav migration theory subscriber until a few points made by curta and alinei made me realise how illogical the theory was , so if our language is not from the balkans why was there a city in macedonia called belazora why is the word for the column support in greek called a krepinosi why is apollos mother called leto, to name a few.
                              How is it that the name Leto came to be used for a season?

                              My views on historical linguistics are based on universally accepted science. I don't desperately search for an exclusively Balkan origin for my language in order to legitimize an identity my neighbors have made me insecure of...

                              Secondly, the Slavic migrations are attested by historical records, DNA studies and archaeological excavations. That being said, we are culturally and genetically autochthonous (for the most part) to this region.

                              Getting seriously off-topic, so I'll leave it at that.

                              Comment

                              • Дени
                                Member
                                • May 2010
                                • 136

                                Originally posted by Дени View Post
                                How is it that the name Leto came to be used for a season?
                                Just to clarify: I'm not skeptical of the etymology you suggested because of any political beliefs or whatever, but simply because it doesn't take into account any historical developments or changes in phonology or morphology (among many, many other things).

                                You're assuming the modern бела зора is related to V/Bylazora based on their appearance in a modern script. That's pure folk etymology.

                                A cute story: my little nephew thought the English necessary comes from не се сери.

                                The complete absence of scientific method is why I reject it.

                                I thought I should make that clear because I didn't want to sound rude.
                                Last edited by Дени; 05-19-2010, 04:52 AM.

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