The Ancient Macedonian Language

[Amphipolis]

I'll respond later. Here are the best pictures, especially the third one.

[Amphipolis]

Thank you. Would you be interested in providing an explanation of the text? I can recognize the names Hieron, Deinomenes, and Syracuse, and though the name "Cumae" is dented and hard to notice, it is there. However, what I don't see is where the "to Zeus Etruscan [spoils]" comes in.

HIARON O ΔΕΙΝΟΜΕΝΕΟΣ
ΚΑΙ ΤΟΙ ΣVRAΚΟΣΙΟΙ
ΤΟΙ ΔΙ ΤVΡΑΝ ΑΠΟ ΚVMAΣ

Ιάρων ο Δεινομένεος
και τοι Συρακόσιοι
τω Δι Τυράν’ από Κύμας

Hieron [son] of Deinomenes
and the Syracusians
[dedicate] to Tyran (?) Zeus [these spoils] from Cumae

Zeus is ΔΙ(Ι) in dative case.

===

[MKD Hockey]

The sexual orientation of the person running the page is irrelevant. Do you have any evidence against the claim that they are making about the inscription? Can you provide links that are relevant? Keep in mind, we're here to discuss the Ancient Macedonian Language, so any reply that is about the language is greatly appreciated.

For future reference, let us also keep in mind these logical fallacies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy (Not necessarily directed at you, just a general reminder for all users).

Why should i post links that are relevant? The page you posted is irrelevant, that is the point. No sources, no links, no nothing just dreams of a gay wanker.

Maybe you should check this site: https://www.facebook.com/ancientmacedonian?fref=ts

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

Gay wanker or not, it doesn't matter. Looked like they had something important to say, but it's evidently all bullshit.

Anyways, the page that you recommended actually appears to do it's research and provide sources. I've checked out all of the sources and so far I haven't found too much that contradicts the points they make.

But, on to a somewhat related subject. Does anyone want to at least entertain the idea of the middle text on the Rosetta Stone being "Macedonian"? I myself have tried to figure out where I can find a translation of it but with little luck. And for whatever reason the translation's not available on Wikipedia. It would seem odd that that's what the language of the Macedonians was like way back when, but it's worth investigating. I've read the article on what the supposed "Macedonian" translation of it would be, but I don't really follow the theory.

[Amphipolis]

Gay wanker or not, it doesn't matter. Looked like they had something important to say, but it's evidently all bullshit.

Anyways, the page that you recommended actually appears to do it's research and provide sources. I've checked out all of the sources and so far I haven't found too much that contradicts the points they make.

But, on to a somewhat related subject. Does anyone want to at least entertain the idea of the middle text on the Rosetta Stone being "Macedonian"? I myself have tried to figure out where I can find a translation of it but with little luck. And for whatever reason the translation's not available on Wikipedia. It would seem odd that that's what the language of the Macedonians was like way back when, but it's worth investigating. I've read the article on what the supposed "Macedonian" translation of it would be, but I don't really follow the theory.

Here's the translation (in English) and the Greek text in posts #57 and #59. Also, it's a whole thread destroying Tentov-Boshevski's theory.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5268&highlight=rosetta&page=6

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

I see. Thank you, saves me a lot of time. Anyways, have any of you been able to find out where the word "phoinikos" has been attested as meaning "warrior/soldier"? I came across it on

www.historyofmacedonia.org

but they don't really provide a source for it. I know that "phoinikes" was the word for the Phoenicians, but I haven't found anything reliable about "Phoinikos" meaning "soldier." If it did and is attested somewhere, it would show another ancient word besides "tshelnik" what we still use.

[Amphipolis]

I see. Thank you, saves me a lot of time. Anyways, have any of you been able to find out where the word "phoinikos" has been attested as meaning "warrior/soldier"? I came across it on

www.historyofmacedonia.org

but they don't really provide a source for it. I know that "phoinikes" was the word for the Phoenicians, but I haven't found anything reliable about "Phoinikos" meaning "soldier." If it did and is attested somewhere, it would show another ancient word besides "tshelnik" what we still use.

I guess both tshelnik and phoinikos come from Alexander Donski.

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/similarities.html

He doesn't provide original (ancient) sources, so I can't say much. Phoinikos is the genitive case of Phoenix.

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

It is actually Richard Gabriel that mentions the word Tshelniku here: https://books.google.com/books?id=0A...tput=html_text

If the link doesn't work properly, search Google Books: Richard Gabriel "Phillip, Greater than Alexander, Page 37."

[Amphipolis]

It is actually Richard Gabriel that mentions the word Tshelniku here: https://books.google.com/books?id=0A...tput=html_text

If the link doesn't work properly, search Google Books: Richard Gabriel "Phillip, Greater than Alexander, Page 37."

Either Hammond or Gabriel, these are modern authors. If this is an alleged ancient term we need the original (ancient) source, if there is any.

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

That would be difficult, if not impossible, to track down. However, it is suggested that the word Tshelniku was heard by the Greeks in the vocative case (spoken directly to the Tshelnik). In any case, it isn't impossible that it existed back then. However, I invite anyone to try and track down the original source to figure out what the earliest attestation of it was. The only credible source that I have come access is that book. But, it should be noted that Tshelnik isn't frequently used in the modern language (Vodač is used instead). So, perhaps it did exist back then, but fell out of use in favor of the modern "Vodač."

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

While I cannot find an ancient source for "Tshelniku," it is possible to make a case for it:
To be clear, the modern word for "chieftain" is "Vodač." But according to Google Translate, "Čelnikot" translates as "the head," which is similar to "vodač" in that the "vodač" is the head of something. However, let's think about this: Why would a book about the ancient Macedonians use a modern Macedonian word when meaning to say "chieftain"? It doesn't make much sense when you think about it. Furthermore, as I stated, "Vodač" is the modern word that translates as "chieftain" whereas "čelnikot" simply means "the head" which could mean the head of anything. Another interesting thing about "tshelniku" is the manner in which it is presented. We know that generally to make the "č (ch)" sound in Greek, it would require placing "tau" next to "chi." Thus, it is likely that if this word was used in antiquity, it was recorded using the Greek writing rules that would place a "tau" next to a "chi" for the sound "č (ch)." Furthermore, the suffix "-niku/-niko" is found in many Slavic words such as "Rabot-nik" (lead the work), "Voj-nik" (lead the war), etc. so this could translate "tshelniku" as "leads ahead" since "tshel" is similar to the modern "Čelo" meaning "forehead." Of course to get down to the ancient source, it would require tracking down all of the possible sources that the author used in that book, which is a tedious task indeed.

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

On another note, I have looked into the Facebook page "Ancient Macedonian Language," and from what I have seen, most of what they post is correct. So the following are words taken from the page that are highly likely the ancient forms of modern Macedonian (or general Slavic) words (some only resemble Greek through common roots, but deviate in a way that is typical of different languages):


Γαβαλάν = Глава/Говола = Head
Άκρέα = Ќерка = Daughter
Κράββατος = Кревет = Bed
Λειβήνος = Леј+Вино = Dionysus (but Slavic "pour + wine")
Ζεμελο = Земла = Earth
Γάρκαν = Гранка = Branch
Ίζέλα = Жела = Wish or Desire
Κρεπiδης = Крепиди = Shoes (but Slavic "enclosures")
Βεδυ = Вода = Water & Air (Slavic: only "water")
Γραβιον = Граб = Horn-beam (an oak tree)
Κλινοτροκον = Клен = Maple


Finally, they provide 2 explanations for Paeonian toponyms:
Στόβοι is related to Macedonian Столбови meaning "pillar, column, or post," and Βυλαζορα is derived from "Βυλα" meaning "white" and "ζορα" meaning "dawn," thus "Βυλαζορα" translates as "white dawn."

[Amphipolis]

While I cannot find an ancient source for "Tshelniku," it is possible to make a case for it:
To be clear, the modern word for "chieftain" is "Vodač." But according to Google Translate, "Čelnikot" translates as "the head," which is similar to "vodač" in that the "vodač" is the head of something. However, let's think about this: Why would a book about the ancient Macedonians use a modern Macedonian word when meaning to say "chieftain"? It doesn't make much sense when you think about it. Furthermore, as I stated, "Vodač" is the modern word that translates as "chieftain" whereas "čelnikot" simply means "the head" which could mean the head of anything. Another interesting thing about "tshelniku" is the manner in which it is presented. We know that generally to make the "č (ch)" sound in Greek, it would require placing "tau" next to "chi." Thus, it is likely that if this word was used in antiquity, it was recorded using the Greek writing rules that would place a "tau" next to a "chi" for the sound "č (ch)." Furthermore, the suffix "-niku/-niko" is found in many Slavic words such as "Rabot-nik" (lead the work), "Voj-nik" (lead the war), etc. so this could translate "tshelniku" as "leads ahead" since "tshel" is similar to the modern "Čelo" meaning "forehead." Of course to get down to the ancient source, it would require tracking down all of the possible sources that the author used in that book, which is a tedious task indeed.

LOL, why do you bother to write so much about ch and ts and everything? From what I’ve read this seems like a simple misunderstanding. The author NEVER says or implies that Tshelniku is an ancient word. He uses it as a recent one (medieval?) simply to make a point (which is actually a correct one). Yet, this has nothing to do with ancient Macedonian language.

[Nikolaj]

LOL, why do you bother to write so much about ch and ts and everything? From what I’ve read this seems like a simple misunderstanding. The author NEVER says or implies that Tshelniku is an ancient word. He uses it as a recent one (medieval?) simply to make a point (which is actually a correct one). Yet, this has nothing to do with ancient Macedonian language.

I haven't read anything from here yet but these differences, phonetics etc are very important.

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

Can you do us a favor and use your head? Or will my plea be more convincing should I say κεβαλε? The author does not imply anything, but why the hell would he use a medival term for the ancient Macedonian chieftain? That is a highly illogical statement. And as I said, the "tsh" sound corresponds to the "č (ch)" sound. Much like how one writes the word "bravo!" as "μπράβο." Everything about the word "tshelniku" screams "ancient!" Otherwise it would write "vodač," which is a modern word for chieftain.