Macedonia and NATO

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  • George S.
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 10116

    if we are not respected why bother to join.
    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
    GOTSE DELCEV

    Comment

    • FriendofMacedonia
      Junior Member
      • Feb 2012
      • 57

      Bulgarian in the Ottoman Empire meant a Slavic-speaking peasant or a poor farmer with little material wealth. Greek, on the other hand, described a middle class Ottoman citizen or a citizen belonging to the clergy and the educated class. The so-called Serbs even had newspapers written in "Greek" (which was mostly a mix of Turkish and medieval Greek before the purification efforts by Peloponnese Rums) and her educated class called themselves Greek by virtue of belonging to the middle class.

      The reality is this, the Balkans is one big mish-mash of one "different peoples" who formed imaginary identities based on history before the Ottoman Empire. During the Ottoman Empire, they were just illiterate Christians without an ethnic identity. Don't fool yourself by believing Balkan propaganda that a strong Serbian, Bulgarian, Greek ethnonational consciousness existed during a time when borders were fluid, the peasant class was by large illiterate and depended on subsistence farming, etc... It's just plain ridiculous to apply modern definitions of ethnicity, nationality, etc to the past when nothing close resembled such in times bygone. The truth is this, the Balkan peoples are living one big denial, in beliving they are truly different from Turks, and the efforts to wipe their history in the 19th century might have worked but the truth doesn't simply disappear.
      Even though I do think this is irrelevant to the discussion of NATO membership in regards to Macedonia, I'll respond anyways.

      So-called Serbs? Are you implying that the Serbian ethnicity doesn't have a valid basis upon which to declare itself one? As far as I know, the basis upon which an ethnicity is formed is a group of people espousing a common tongue, perceived shared history, culture etc. all of which Serbs satisfy. Tell me, how is the Macedonian ethnicity anymore valid as an ethnicity than the Serbian one? Was it not established on these same principles (that in reality every ethnic group was established upon)?

      And I agree, most PEOPLE (not just Serbs or Bulgarians) at that time and in the world were nothing more than illiterate peasants and most concepts of national affinity existed primarily among the intellectual elite and much later in history. A Serbian ethnonational consciousness didn't exist at the time, but a strong identification with Serbian culture and history survived throughout the centuries. I mean look at the Pec Patriarchate and their recording and safe keeping of Serbian history/tradition during the Ottomans? Or the countless Serbian nationals who lived in Austria during the Ottoman era who helped preserve Serbian culture through publishing books, poems etc. If you need specific examples I'll provide them.

      Ethnicity didn't exist in the modern sense of the word, but a distinct Serbian culture and history. We didn't magically decide to become Serbs in 19th century, there clearly was a concept of Serbian identity that existed throughout the Ottoman era and this was the basis for forming the Serbian ethnicity. It didn`t appear out of nowhere.


      Also about the power shift comment, it's a ridiculous belief to assume the power will suddenly move from West to East. Russia still has ways to go before it catches up with the West in living standards. The same with China, and even right now it is facing internal political problems regarding succession. China is not at all an unified country. It is a country of many different languages, dialects and ethnicites only suppressed thanks to Communism i.e. Yugoslavism but this will eventually explode like it did in Yugoslavia.
      Who said anything about suddenly? Rome wasn`t destroyed "suddenly" and neither will the West be. But sooner or later, its bound to begin declining (it already has). Russia and China have a way to go agreed, but their populations are growing, the economies are growing and have vast potential for growth (unlike the Western economies whose growth potential is limited).

      As for China, I disagree. Yugoslavia didn't implode because of ethnic differences, this was just a catalyst. Yugoslavia imploded first and foremost (like almost any other state that suffered a similar fate) because the economy went to utter shit. The vast majority of people don't really give a shit whose ruling them as long as they are safe and fiscally prosperous (case and point: Balkan Christian peasants actually preferred early Ottoman rule as it allowed them less taxation and more productivity. The main reason they became agitated later on was due to increasing fundamentalism and a stagnating economy). That being said, as long as China's economy keeps improving (which it will) and the people slowing become more and more prosperous (which they are), the people won't give a shit whose ruling them. Most people are narrowly self-interested, if they have secure jobs and food on the table, they will continue to be, by large, loyal to the Chinese government.

      Comment

      • Risto the Great
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 15658

        Originally posted by FriendofMacedonia View Post
        So-called Serbs? Are you implying that the Serbian ethnicity doesn't have a valid basis upon which to declare itself one? As far as I know, the basis upon which an ethnicity is formed is a group of people espousing a common tongue, perceived shared history, culture etc. all of which Serbs satisfy. Tell me, how is the Macedonian ethnicity anymore valid as an ethnicity than the Serbian one? Was it not established on these same principles (that in reality every ethnic group was established upon)?
        Discussions about the Greek newspapers in Serbia have happened before. I think the "so called" in this instance is more to do with those Serbs trying to pass themselves off as Greeks due to their literacy and romantic views of the Hellenes.
        Risto the Great
        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

        Comment

        • FriendofMacedonia
          Junior Member
          • Feb 2012
          • 57

          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
          Discussions about the Greek newspapers in Serbia have happened before. I think the "so called" in this instance is more to do with those Serbs trying to pass themselves off as Greeks due to their literacy and romantic views of the Hellenes.
          The "romantic views" are quite recent. During the Ottoman times especially, Serbs (and other Balkan Slavs at the time) reserved nothing but hatred and contempt of the Greeks, who were at times seen as worse than the Turks themselves. That's why I think his statement is rather questionable.

          Comment

          • George S.
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2009
            • 10116

            Peinter: Keeping Macedonia out of NATO is a dangerous precedent

            Peinter: Keeping Macedonia out of NATO is a dangerous precedent


            Macedonia has met the criteria for membership and its refusal a dangerous precedent and incentive for keeping the process of NATO enlargement hostage to bilateral sporovigton


            Macedonia has met the criteria for membership and its refusal a dangerous precedent and incentive for keeping the process of NATO enlargement hostage to bilateral disputes, said Sally Peinter, operating director of the "Blue Star Strategy" in Washington. In her time alliance to correct its unjust decision of Bucharest, but Chicago is not the ultimate point or a unique opportunity for the country's entry into NATO.
            - No need to wait for a miracle. I certainly am not a person that will say whether a miracle happened in Chicago or not, but always hope the best for Macedonia, especially on this issue. Spent four years in Bucharest NATO summit in Chicago should be the end point or a unique opportunity for Macedonia to join NATO. The doors of NATO remain open for your country and I hope to see Macedonia as well as all other countries in the region as soon as the Alliance, said in an interview Peinter program "Porta" MTV asked whether he believes is possible in Chicago Macedonia to receive an invitation to join the Alliance.
            She recalls that it is clear that all NATO member states including Greece agree that Macedonia has met all criteria for membership in the Alliance, but there remains a dispute.
            - De facto Macedonia is part of the Alliance, but the name issue worries your southern neighbor and, unfortunately, Macedonia was admitted as a member of the Bucharest Summit that reason. Was it fair - no, but should not quit because of it. President, Prime Minister, Minister of Foreign Affairs and your ambassadors in Europe and U.S. are working constantly to resolve this issue and Macedonia should be proud of it. U.S., and I believe all European leaders want to see Macedonia as a full NATO member as soon as possible and all eagerly await that day with the hope that it will happen to NATO Summit in Chicago, says U.S. analyst.
            Peinter underlines the central pillar of NATO - extending and strengthening the Alliance's agenda this year, but that, when countries such as Macedonia, which met all criteria and continuously contribute to collective security are not allowed membership it weakens the main goal the region, and that is security, stability and prosperity.
            - Now is the time for NATO to rectify its unfair decision. It is clear that under North Atlantic Treaty every European country that fulfills the conditions and can contribute to security of the Alliance can become a member. Macedonia ranks high on both criteria. The country has long contributed to the joint and collective security of NATO participating in various regional peacekeeping missions in 1999 and in Iraq and Afghanistan. Denial of Macedonia is a dangerous precedent for other regional rivalries that one country can indefinitely to prevent receipt of another country. This can be shown as an incentive for keeping the process of NATO enlargement hostage to bilateral disputes, considered Peinter.
            According to her, at a time when Europe is struggling with the current financial crisis, renewing the commitment of NATO towards its open-door policy will reflect positively on the European project, will also send a strong message about its commitment to continue its partnership with countries that share its values.
            - In 2000, Macedonia has formally started the process of joining the EU by implementing numerous reforms. Five years later, Macedonia was granted candidate status for membership. In 2009, 2010 and 2011 report that is prepared by the European Commission recommended to the Council of the EU to start membership negotiations. I sincerely believe that Macedonia would have been a member of NATO and the EU if Greece proceed with more flexibility to issue and negotiate more active, says Peinter.
            She says that the position of the U.S. government, regarding Macedonia's membership in NATO is clear that he wants to see the country Alijasanata and confirmation it was Smith in 2009 in Strasbourg / Kehl from President Obama in Bucharest in 2008 - March year by President Bush. Whether it is possible destabilization in the Balkans, experts from Washington said the region is stable and no serious conflicts over 10 years and he strongly believes that all countries in the region have excellent cooperation in matters of security.
            - No need to raise questions about possible regional destabilization because the main goal of all Balkan countries to integrate into NATO and the EU. Macedonia has always been a leader in preserving the peace and finding solutions peacefully, because I do not see any threat of destabilization in your country or region, according Peinter.
            Commenting on last week's murder fivefold in Smiljkovci, she expressed shock and sympathy to the families and conviction that the institutions of the system will find the perpetrators and they will be punished.
            - It is sad when you hear such news, five young people to be killed while fishermen. I am convinced that the Ministry of Internal Affairs investigates and works very hard to track down those responsible for this act. No need for inter-ethnic tensions, this is not something that people with morals and ethics would like to happen regardless of race, color and ethnicity. Those who are responsible and involved in this murder deserve the worst punishment and I am sure that justice will come, said in an interview for "gate" Sally Peinter country with a message to continue with reforms
            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
            GOTSE DELCEV

            Comment

            • Big Bad Sven
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2009
              • 1528

              NATO Doors Remain Closed to Macedonia

              NATO Doors Remain Closed to Macedonia
              NATO and US officials have put an end to Macedonia’s slim hopes that it may get anything more than warm words at the forthcoming NATO summit in Chicago in a few days.

              Resolving the "name" dispute with Greece remains the condition for Macedonia’s NATO accession, NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen told Radio Free Europe ahead of the summit that starts on May 20-21.

              The Alliance's position remains unchanged, he said, and is still based on the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest summit, when NATO deemed Macedonia ready to join once it concludes the long-standing name dispute with Greece.

              "Unfortunately, there has not been progress in this direction. Nevertheless, the decision we took four years ago continues to apply," Rasmussen said.

              This sentiment was also clear in the words of the US Assistant Secretary of State, Philip Gordon, who last week told the US Senate that NATO would admit no new members at the forthcoming summit in Chicago.

              “In view of Macedonia, the country has met the key membership criteria. The United States remains engaged and supports negotiations aimed at solving the name row [with Greece], led by UN envoy Matthew Nimetz,” Gordon said.

              Agreeing that Macedonia should not now nurture big hopes of the summit, Macedonian Deputy Defence Minister Emil Dimitriev said that the latest remarks “will not discourage us from our goal of becoming NATO members because we deserve it”.

              Macedonia has been an active participant in several NATO-led missions. The country currently has some 160 troops in the peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan and has been repeatedly praised for its efforts there.

              In 2008 Greece blocked Macedonia’s accession at the Bucharest NATO Summit, saying that its neighbour’s use of the name “Macedonia” implies a territorial claim to its northern province of the same name.

              Since then, NATO has repeatedly demanded a solution to the dispute before Macedonia can be invited to join.

              Last December, the International Court of Justice, ICJ, ruled that Greece had breached an interim deal brokered by the UN in 1995 when it blocked Macedonia’s attempt to join NATO.

              However, the court did not directly order Greece to stop the blockade, as Macedonia had requested.

              In a last-ditch attempt to boost its chances in Chicago, using the ruling of the ICJ as its main argument, Macedonia's parliament recently passed a declaration reaffirming the country’s commitment to NATO membership.

              However, the UN-led name talks with Greece have not moved forward for over a year. There have been only few meetings between the two parties but they have been viewed as nothing more than exchanges of pleasantries.

              NATO and US officials have put an end to Macedonia’s slim hopes that it may get anything more than warm words at the forthcoming NATO summit in Chicago in a few days.

              Comment

              • Big Bad Sven
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2009
                • 1528

                Now tell me, was it all worth it in the end

                Why are we still having macedonian troops in the Middle East, assisting NATO when they dont even respect us

                Comment

                • Pavle Pijanica
                  Junior Member
                  • Jan 2012
                  • 71

                  That's it....sho se macat???

                  Forget FYROM and get the constitutional name back to "Republic of Macedonia"

                  Seriously when's Gruevski gonna see the light that no one wants Macedonia to be nothing more than a state who's lost its rights as a sovereign nation and as a majority population get less rights in their own country then those Allah calling pichki who constantly claim to be victimised.

                  Majkata nasite luje tolku prosti se? Koga ke se razbudat?

                  We are not the Swiss...and as such not even the Swiss can trpi migrants. I have some Serb friends who lived in Switzerland who had told me that if you are not born their you're not welcomed...

                  I dont understand VMRO...does Ali Ahmeti and his team of secheni have to put a gun to Gruevski's head before he starts thinking to himself "Shit....these people hate us afterall!!!!"

                  Someone go in there and make a change for the Love of God!!!!

                  Comment

                  • molika
                    Junior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 76

                    get the hint, makedonci or gruveski. the door is rammed up, nailed shut. with a mega mat out front. "Macedonia is not welcomed",

                    ow god o mighty, what shall we do. how about not join this forsaken club of power hungry monsters...

                    Comment

                    • Volk
                      Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 894

                      Originally posted by molika View Post
                      get the hint, makedonci or gruveski. the door is rammed up, nailed shut. with a mega mat out front. "Macedonia is not welcomed",

                      ow god o mighty, what shall we do. how about not join this forsaken club of power hungry monsters...
                      How about Macedonia build a defense force which can protect the national interests of the Macedonian people, not help western imperialism which negates our name.

                      Small problem, UCK runs the Macedonian ministry of Defense and the albanians are preparing for Macedonia's partition.
                      Makedonija vo Srce

                      Comment

                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        That's it volk well spoken who the fuck needs nato.we can if we want fight our wars but we need to change our mentality.Also pull out our troops from nato immediately as well as
                        afghanistan.
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV

                        Comment

                        • The LION will ROAR
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 3231

                          Greek President, party leaders agree veto for Macedonia at NATO Summit in Chicago

                          Skopje/Athens, 17 May 2012 (MIA) - Greece's party leaders and President Karolos Papoulias, at one of their meetings on setting up new government, agreed that Athens must impose veto on Macedonia's accession to NATO at Chicago Summit.

                          According to transcripts of the meeting, published by Papoulias' Cabinet, Greek party leaders pointed out that Macedonia's accession to NATO was not on the Summit's agenda. However, if there were attempts for raising the issue Greek representatives at the summit should impose a veto.

                          The discussion on Macedonia at the meeting, held yesterday, was raised by the leader of right-wing Independent Greeks party, Panos Kammenos, who was concerned that at the Chicago Summit his country would be represented by an interim government with limited mandate.

                          "We wish for even the veto right to be applied for the possibility the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to join NATO under the name 'Macedonia'," Kammenos said.

                          PASOK (Greek Socialist) leader Evangelos Venizelos said if the issue came up at the Chicago Summit, Greece should act in line with its national strategy and arguments it had prepared as response to the ruling of The Hague-based International Court of Justice.

                          "Our arguments should be smarter than those presented in 2008. We should make them stronger in a wiser, more intelligent manner," Venizelos said.

                          Alexandra Papariga, leader of the Communist Party, considers that Greece should veto a possible discussion on the matter, as 'there is no official Greek government." A discussion on Macedonia in Chicago should and could be prevented in any case, Democratic Left party leader Fotis Kouvelis said.

                          Alexis Tsipras, leader of the coalition of the radical left (SYRIZA), which came out as second best at the recent elections, said a name with geographic determination was a condition for settling the name dispute.

                          Conservative Nea Democratia leader Antonis Samaras said veto would be inevitable if the issue on Macedonia's NATO accession was to be raised at Chicago Summit.

                          The talks for constituting new Greek political or technical government failed, which resulted in setting up a caretaker cabinet, under the helm of Council of State president Panagiotis Pikrammenos, the head of Greece's top administrative court. Petros Molyviatis, who served as a Foreign Minister in Kostas Karamanlis' cabinet, is to take the same office in the caretaker government, whose main objective is organise new early elections. lk/17:45



                          Quote
                          "We wish for even the veto right to be applied for the possibility the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to join NATO under the name 'Macedonia'," Kammenos said.
                          I thought by the court ruleing that the greeks will not or could not veto....?
                          more lies
                          The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

                          Comment

                          • Vangelovski
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 8531

                            Originally posted by The LION will ROAR View Post
                            I thought by the court ruleing that the greeks will not or could not veto....?
                            more lies
                            Just for info, to add idiocy to lunacy, the ICJ did not actually rule that Greece should not veto Macedonia again. They ruled that Greece "violated" the Interim Accord, thereby recognising the Interim Accord as "valid" as per Macedonia's (or FYROM's - according to official documents) request.
                            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                            Comment

                            • The LION will ROAR
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 3231

                              Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                              Just for info, to add idiocy to lunacy, the ICJ did not actually rule that Greece should not veto Macedonia again. They ruled that Greece "violated" the Interim Accord, thereby recognising the Interim Accord as "valid" as per Macedonia's (or FYROM's - according to official documents) request.
                              thanks Vangelovski your right on that...
                              So they can "violated" the Interim Accord again & again and we with the Law behind us could do jack...
                              The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

                              Comment

                              • Vangelovski
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 8531

                                Originally posted by The LION will ROAR View Post
                                thanks Vangelovski your right on that...
                                So they can "violated" the Interim Accord again & again and we with the Law behind us could do jack...
                                At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the ICJ rules because they cannot enforce their rulings and they don't really have the moral authority to do so even if they could.
                                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                                Comment

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