Common Macedonian Soldier Proud NOT To Be Greek

[osiris]

we know there were at best a few greeks and many vlachs and slavs identifying as greeks from macedonia. but all together they represented less than 5% of the macedonian people whears in greece proper micre albanians and vlachs who identified as geeks were the overwhelming majority.

but why would that matter being a modern greek has nothing to do with being greek its all about wanting to be a greek.

thats the difference between greeks and macedonians we are true to our modern identity and are proud of our modern ancestors cultue and language, while the wannabees changed everyone's names and forced everyone to learn a foreign language in order to become greek

[makedonche]

I can show you recorded cases of Greeks from Macedonia self-identifying as "Macedonians" in regional sense from 1908 or even 1838.

Agamoi
That would be quite an achievement- from which part?, Greeks self identifying as Macedonians - sorry it's not that easy to be Macedonian, but for you Greeks it's easy for you to be Greek or Macedonian or whatever you feel like, since you only have to feel Greek to be greek, it follows that you only have to feel Macedonian to be Macedonian...right?........wrong! You don't qualify that easy!
I can show you people who are still alive and can tell you who their forefathers were and what language they spoke for generations, not one of them identifies as greek or even recalls any greeks - other than transients- in their locations.

[julie]

I can show you recorded cases of Greeks from Macedonia self-identifying as "Macedonians" in regional sense from 1908 or even 1838.

Are you clean, seriously get off the drugs moron

[George S.]

Agamoi if you tell us their surnames we can tell you where they come from.Also back in the early days greece even recognised the original macedonians because it prepared a primer the abcedar.Then they changed their tune to suit & said they don't exist.These so called macedonians (greek) came after the 1913 balkan wars transplanted by greece & moved out large populations that were indigenous & resettled with prosfeges.But these resettled people are not real macedonians even if they idetify or are born.It's like me coming over to your house & illegally taking over killing you & family etc & i call myself greek.
You know agamoi the greeks made a distinction between the new settlers & existing settlers the indigenous people the macedonians were called ENDOPI which means original settler.The rest is wannabee "macedonians".
Your country knows that it is occupying northern greece illegally & by illegal means.It will do allmost anything to stop Macedonia from existing or preventing her from joining the EU or NATO.It's fucking scared of a country that's 10 times weaker than itself.It knows its on borrowed time as it has gone both morally & financially into bankruptcy.It's devoid of any feeling for what it has done it is a monster gigantic proportions,its run by the magali idea,promoting a greater greece.It has committed the gravest of all genocides on the macedonian people living in denial & paranoia all the time.Now trying to change the name of macedonia because it's got a problem with that.

[Agamoi Thytai]

Agamoi

More ridiculous references? Arrian????
" Arrians book was a self-confessed re-working of extant material, selected and arranged according to his own predelictions. It acts as a filter. The relatively vast spectrum of literature in his day was trimmed by deliberate limitation of sources, and those chosen sources were selectively deployed to present the picture which Arian thought did most justice to his hero." - A.B. Bosworth, From Arrian to Alexander: studies in historical interpretation.
Wasn't he alive 2-300 years after Alexander died? Is this another of your credible sources?

Arrian is ridiculous too?OK,Makedonche,then you should not quote again anything from Arrian!Especially that specific passage which speaks (or,to be more precise,is not properly translated) about the "ancient rivalry between Greeks and Macedonians" while he describes the battle of Granicus river.Also don't quote that passage of Quintus Curtius Rufus again with the incident at Philotas' trial,because Quintus Curtius Rufus wrote his history 3-4 centuries after Alexander's era too,re-editing other older accounts,like Arrian.

[Agamoi Thytai]

we know there were at best a few greeks and many vlachs and slavs identifying as greeks from macedonia. but all together they represented less than 5% of the macedonian people

This (the real number of the Greek inahbitants of Macedonia in 19th and the first decade of 20th century) is debatable,however my point was not that,but whether Makedonche's statement "Greeks 30 years ago didn't use at all the term Macedonians" is reliable or not.

whears in greece proper micre albanians and vlachs who identified as geeks were the overwhelming majority.

This edition of Britannica encyclopedia from 1824 reads that despite the presence of Arvanites and Vlachs,Greeks were the majority:

http://books.google.com/books?id=FFcMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA587

[George S.]

Agamop stop bullshitting If there was rivalry between the two races rhat's all the more differences,You dont acknowledge that you just remain on how the linguistics were the same.Arrian will say something in one place but you'll go somewhere else & says something else.Exactly what i said not very many ancient sources are reliable & a lot ostuff was written hundreds of years later.Also a lot of myths were written about the history some true some made up especially showing some sort of relationship or kinship to macedonians which is crap.In todays terms we want hard answers we don't want maybes.Stuff written 100's of years later tends not to be very accurate.One missing thing is in the arguments is that the greeks HATED the macedonians BIG time & virtually everything was written by those who hated them the GREEKS.
Another thing that people may not be aware is that greece does a lot of doctoring it only lets people know what it wants them to know.Other info get's destroyed if ot says favourable things in macedonia.Isn't it a coincidence everything found in archaelogy on the greek side comes out in greek writing.Anything coming out on macedonian side comes out in macedoniam.So stuff gets doctored on the greek side on a regular basis.

[Agamoi Thytai]

Agamoi
That would be quite an achievement- from which part?, Greeks self identifying as Macedonians - sorry it's not that easy to be Macedonian, but for you Greeks it's easy for you to be Greek or Macedonian or whatever you feel like, since you only have to feel Greek to be greek, it follows that you only have to feel Macedonian to be Macedonian...right?........wrong! You don't qualify that easy!
I can show you people who are still alive and can tell you who their forefathers were and what language they spoke for generations, not one of them identifies as greek or even recalls any greeks - other than transients- in their locations.

Makedonche,I can understand that it sounds weird to your ears (and to most of your fellow Macedonians too) that Greeks from Macedonia used the term "Macedonians" as their regional name in Ottoman time (or that Greeks from other regions used the term "Macedonians" in that sense).I don't blame you since this is what you've been taught all your life by some people (that Greeks did never use the term "Macedonians" for self- identification before 1988),however this is not the truth.Let's see some real facts:
There was held in November of 1821 an assembly of insurgent Greeks in Astros of Peloponnesus,and one of the members was Ioannis Skandalidis from Salonica,as delegate of Macedonia.This is described in that book,published in 1839:

http://books.google.gr/books?id=1E0IAAAAQAAJ&pg=PP9

Here are the names of the delegates and the regions they represent:
Μακεδονίας-Ιωάννης Σκανδαλίδης,Ιωάννης Βιζούλας.

http://books.google.gr/books?id=1E0IAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA86

And here is how the delegates signed:
Iωάννης Σκανδαλίδης ο Μακεδών-Ioannis Skandalidis the Macedonian (it's the seventh name).

http://books.google.gr/books?id=1E0IAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA87

The known Greek scholar Adamantios Korais published at the outbreak of the Greek revolution in 1821 a brochure with an appeal to the insurgents.A passage of this appeal:

http://books.google.com/books?id=x8IGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR4

"Οι Ηπειρώται ενθυμήθητε τα κατροθώματα των προγόνων σας...Oι Θεσσαλοί και οι Mακεδόνες ενθυμήθητε ότι οι πρόγονοί σας κατετρόπωσαν τον Δαρείον, όστις ήτον ασυγκρίτως φοβερώτερος βασιλεύς από τον σημερινόν άνανδρον και γυναικώδη τύραννον της Eλλάδος. Oι Πελοποννήσιοι και οι λοιποί Έλληνες μη λησμονήσετε τα τρόπαια, όσα κατά των βαρβάρων ανέστησαν οι προπάτορές σας;και σεις ανεξαιρέτως οι Mαϊνώται συλλογίσθητε ότι είσθε αίμα Σπαρτιατών;Όλοι ομού, όσοι με το λαμπρόν όνομα των Γραικών δοξάζεσθε."
Epirotans,remember the achievements of your ancestors....Thessalians and Macedonians,remember that your ancestors completely routed Darius,an incomparably more fierce king than the current unmanly and effeminate tyrant of Greece.Peloponnesians and the rest of the Greeks,don't forget the trophies that your ancestors erected thank to their victories against the barbarians.And especially you,the Maniates,bethink that you are blood of the Spartans.All of you together,who are glorified by the bright name of the Hellenes...

It is apparent how used Korais in that passage the term "Macedonians".

Also in this older post of mine there is a documented reference of Greeks from Macedonia self-identifying as Macedonians in 1838:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=84936&postcount=6

Another Greek scholar,Panayiotis Soutsos wrote in 1854 a theatrical work.In this passage below,he calls the Greeks that were still under the Ottoman rule to uprise as follows:

"Eις τα όπλα Ηπειρώται!Εις τα όπλα Μακεδόνες!Εις τα όπλα Θεσσαλοί!Εις τας θείας υμών χώρας τρείς επέρασαν αιώνες δούλοι και σιωπηλοί."
To arms,Epirotans!To arms,Macedonians!To arms,Thessalians!Three centuries already passed in your divine lands,being slaves and silent.

http://books.google.com/books?id=UoUTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA103

A Greek literature magazine in 1854 mentioned the speech of K.Nikoklis,the principal of the Hellenic school of Salonica on the occasion of the annual exams.The title of the article is "Το εν Θεσσαλονίκη ελληνικόν σχολείον",i.e. "The Greek school of Salonica":

http://books.google.com/books?id=_uoGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA453

The whole text of the principal's speech is ful of references to the term "Macedonians" as regional name of the local Greeks,however I shall quote only one such,in pages 460-461:

http://books.google.com/books?id=_uoGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA461

"...και αγαπάτε την πατρίδα,μηδέποτε ανεχόμενοι να φανήτε ανάξιοι τών προσδοκιών αυτής καί τοΰ λαμπρού παρελθόντος των προγόνων ημών Μακεδόνων"
"...and love your fatherland,never tolerating to show yourselves unworthy of her expectations and the bright past of our Macedonian ancestors."

An appeal of Greeks from Macedonia to the Brittish ambasador at Athens in 1904.They self-identify as "Macedonians" with the regional meaning of the word:

http://www.archive.org/stream/turkinbalkans00comyiala#page/170/mode/1up

Another appeal of Greeks from Macedonia who studied at the Athens University to an English author,in 1907.They sign as "Society of Macedonian students"

http://www.archive.org/stream/eastendeuropere00upwagoog#page/n125/mode/1up

[Daskalot]

You see Agamoi, you can turn this every way you like.
But one thing is for sure, no Greek has ever used Macedonian and Macedonians to denote their ethnic and national belonging.

It all is very very very simple, Macedonia for the Macedonians, it all condenses down to these simple words.
No Greek has ever fought for or desired a free Macedonia, not now or in history.

Just remember these simple words from a humble Macedonian fighting for Macedonia.

On a side note, most of the people you claim to be Greeks are in one way or another influenced by the propaganda of their time. There are also a lot of inconsistencies, read thru the books and you will understand.

[Daskalot]

An appeal of Greeks from Macedonia to the Brittish ambasador at Athens in 1904.They self-identify as "Macedonians" with the regional meaning of the word:

http://www.archive.org/stream/turkinbalkans00comyiala#page/170/mode/1up

Are these the Macedonians of Athens you speak of?
Are they speaking Greek??? Does it look like it to you?



It is written in Greek letters:

PROKLAMATSIA
NA ELLINOMAKENTOSKI KOMITET
OT ATINA
ZA NASITE BRATE MAKENTONΤSI

The language is the Macedonian language, translated into English it says:

PROCLAMATION
OF THE GREEK MACEDONIAN COMMITTEE
FROM ATHENS
TO OUR BROTHERS THE MACEDONIANS

Please notice the picture of Alexander the Macedonian.


They must be the same Macedonians from 1904 who wrote this in 1905, do you agree?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Illyrians, same thing for them. There is evidence to show for them.

What evidence? Can you refer me to a paragraph inscription in Illyrian or Paeonian like that cited in the Thracian ring?

However the core of the Persian empire (whose territory formed most of Alexander's Asiatic conquests) was the hinterland of Middle East and Asia Minor,not the maritime regions of modern Turkey,Israel,Syria and Lebanon.So how possible and realistic seems the scenario that people who lived in modern Sivas,Erzurum,Ankara,Baghdat,Vasra,Teheran e.t.c,could be influenced by Greek language and culture so much that they started learning Greek?Only because there were some 20-30 Greek colonies houndreds of miles away?This may have happened in the vicinity of these colonies but not in such distances.

The colonies aren't the only reason why the Greek language was dispersed across Asia, but they did play a significant role by setting the precedent. Had they not existed, it would have been monumentally more difficult for this dispersion to take place. It would be naive to think otherwise given the prestige of ancient Greek as a lingua franca in the Balkans and Asia Minor even before Alexander's time.

By that logic,even the Celts should be fluent in Greek,or the Gauls who raided Greece in 3th BC century,and the ancient Germanic tribes too,their distance from the nearest Greek colonies,i.e on the coast of modern Southern France was no longer than that of Babylon,Sousa and Persepolis from Cyprus or the Asia Minor coast!

Did Greeks accompany another nation as they invaded Gaul or Germany, so they could take advantage of the precedent set by the established colonies as they did during the Macedonian invasion of Asia? Does your logic accept actual logic? Do you think Phillip and Alexander wanted to conquer Asia to teach Persians and Indians how to speak Greek?

[SirGeorge8600]

what a crap "study greek philosophy" tctctctc

it makes me wanna puke!

Well me too...the author states that the soldiers were proud not to be Greek because they were too dull to learn the language, culture, and philosophy like their nobles. This is wrong on many levels...Alexander respected Greek, but he didn't treat Macedonian as an inferior where he only spoke it to his guards. This author makes Macedonian appear as a ghetto language...

[momce]

agamoi why would you quote an author who clearly makes a distinction between greeks and Macedonians throughout his work, Arrian..actually the tension between greeks and Macedonians is all over Arrian writings

[TrueMacedonian]

agamoi why would you quote an author who clearly makes a distinction between greeks and Macedonians throughout his work, Arrian..actually the tension between greeks and Macedonians is all over Arrian writings

I believe that even Paul Cartledge has acknowledged that Arrian makes a distinction between Macedonians and Hellenes.

[momce]

Well me too...the author states that the soldiers were proud not to be Greek because they were too dull to learn the language, culture, and philosophy like their nobles. This is wrong on many levels...Alexander respected Greek, but he didn't treat Macedonian as an inferior where he only spoke it to his guards. This author makes Macedonian appear as a ghetto language...

Probably they felt the same way about greeks as the Romans did. I dont think it means Macedonian was a ghetto language just that greek culture at the time was not suitable for the Macedonian monarchy and its bid for world empire. Alexander uses the greeks mostly in secondary roles. The Romans used greeks pretty much in the same role as the Macedonians did, as hirelings. The point here is how ridiculous the modern greek arguement is. No one considered Macedonia to be part of greece before the modern greek propaganda and irrendentism. What small greek-speaking populations there were in Macedonia were obviously settlements and most of them are astride a compact area East Epir, South West Macedonia and Thessaly, and also their mother tongue is not greek but some creole speech of some kind, which to me says they are not indigenous to the region or they may be but just have been assimilated into the greek-speaking structures. Like I said in earlier post, my view is that the view of greeks in Macedonia and other territories probably has not changed much since the ancient world as being something foreign to the Balkan region. But modern greek propaganda is about as intelligent as the every day greco, not very.