Perceptions of God, Creationism and Evolution

[TrueMacedonian]

Seeing as the topic is a big one I figured I'd start it here. Me and 2 friends of mine were in a heated discussion earlier on religion. To my disbelief one of my friends believes in creationism and was touting the name of Ken Hovind to me. There are numerous Ken Hovind videos on youtube but here's one of them;

YouTube - hovind debate

Hovind basically talks fast, gets to his point, and calls the theory of evolution "stupid". Anyways I'm not an atheist, I do believe in God, but there are things in the bible that I just can't believe which happen to be the parables of certain figures ages and so forth. My friend actually told me that yes in the biblical days man lived to be 900 years old AAAAAAAAAANYWAYS I happened to stump him on some particular questions and I wonder if anyone here would happen to know in good detail,,,,,,,,, When was the sign of the cross applied to christianity? And is it correct to use this sign forming a lower case 't' with three fingers or rwo fingers or one? And was the cross that Jesus was crucified on a 't' an 'X' or a 'T'?

My friend was baffled and could not answer me. Creationists base all their beliefs in the bible. But if I remember correctly none of these things are mentioned in the bible and I believe are mentioned 200 years after Christ. Why is this a big deal? My friend asked me this and I said it's a big deal because this one symbolic gesture for Christ our Saviour may be the wrong gesture. I think I sent him home thinking long and hard and running to his bible

[777Bitola]

George carlin - religion is bullshit

YouTube - George Carlin - Religion is bullshit.

Im still a young person, however the older i get the more i look around and say to myself wow this place is fucked up. The more i start questioning if this is just something to control us, growing up in a family of Eastern Orthodox Christians i heard it all. I wouldn't call myself an athiest, i believe that their could be a type of god who created us but doesnt care about us which would make sence.

The less im starting to believe with Jesus and all of the Christianity stuff. Say i was born in Pakistan, i would be a muslim and i would say Mohammed is my prophet and Allah is my god and i will recieve 72 virgins.

Or i could of been born in India as a Hindu worshipping an 8 armed god, and thinking i will be reincarnated. Theirs 1000s of religions which one is the right one? So many flaws in alot of these books and teachings. More people need to open up and think outside of the box.

[Philosopher]

TM,

I respect your comments and opinions and you are free to express them. But I have to call into question some of your statements.

First, you call Jesus "our Savior," so I presume you believe in the Savior. But may I ask, what do you believe you need "saving" from?

If you believe in Evolution, I can't see how you can believe in Jesus or believe that Christ is your Savior.

If death is a natural order of the universe, then it is not the result of sin. If death is a natural order of the universe, then it is a good thing, since God made it. If sin didn't cause death, then why believe in a god-man who came to earth that he might restore the consequences of sin--death.

If death came by one man, Adam, then life came by one man, Jesus. If the consequences of sin is eternal hell, then the consequences of Jesus' righteousness is eternal life.

But all of this is meaningless if we accept the premise of Evolution, since Evolution requires millions and billions of years of random "natural selection," where things live and die, until finally nature made it work. Do you really want to believe in a God who couldn't get it right the first time? Did not God say after the 7th day "It was very good." Why would God play "dice with the universe," as Einstein wrote.

If sin is not the cause death and suffering, then why would Christ die for our sins--for what purpose? Sin is nothing and has no consequences.

As for the whole T, t, and X, and Cross--I don't get what that has to do with anything. I can't figure out its importance.

[TrueMacedonian]

Good questions Philosopher.

First, you call Jesus "our Savior," so I presume you believe in the Savior. But may I ask, what do you believe you need "saving" from?

I believe, like most christians, that I need saving from all my sins, volunatry and involuntary.

If you believe in Evolution, I can't see how you can believe in Jesus or believe that Christ is your Savior.

Why is that so hard to believe? Jesus was a great philosopher and preached about love for your friends, family, etc. Alot of people think it impractical to put his teachings into practice today but I think if we all tried then the world would be a different place.
Believing in the Evolution theory should not impede on what Christ taught.

If death is a natural order of the universe, then it is not the result of sin. If death is a natural order of the universe, then it is a good thing, since God made it. If sin didn't cause death, then why believe in a god-man who came to earth that he might restore the consequences of sin--death.

It's not sinful to die you are right. It's not worrying about death being a sin. It's about what happens after you're dead.

If death came by one man, Adam, then life came by one man, Jesus. If the consequences of sin is eternal hell, then the consequences of Jesus' righteousness is eternal life.

Yes.

But all of this is meaningless if we accept the premise of Evolution, since Evolution requires millions and billions of years of random "natural selection," where things live and die, until finally nature made it work. Do you really want to believe in a God who couldn't get it right the first time? Did not God say after the 7th day "It was very good." Why would God play "dice with the universe," as Einstein wrote.

Why would you claim that 'God couldn't get it right the first time?' If anything God set Evolution to its path for however long it took. Indeed the bible says that on the 7th day God finished creation and took rest. But if you're a creationist (which I am not) you will say that yes this is it no questions asked! However the bible doesn't mention dinosaurs either,,,,so are we going to deny that dinosaurs existed? Like i've said elsewhere some parables in the bible I just can't fully swallow. But to say that you can't believe in Evolution and in Christianity is not accurate either.

If sin is not the cause death and suffering, then why would Christ die for our sins--for what purpose? Sin is nothing and has no consequences.

Christ died for the salvation of our souls. Everything we do in life has a consequence, big or small. Your theory will be tested one day.

As for the whole T, t, and X, and Cross--I don't get what that has to do with anything. I can't figure out its importance.

The importance is this symbolic gesture christians use in a church (the sign of the cross), during prayer, when someone is being buried, etc,,, is something we as christians do today but how do we know that Christ was crucified on a cross like a 't' and not crucified on an 'X' or even on an 'l'? The bible does not specify this if I remember correctly. So the importance here is we accept using this symbolic, even ritualistic, gesture for the sign of the cross and we don't know if it's even the correct gesture to use.

[Vangelovski]

TM,

I won't comment much in this thread because a lot has been covered in the other threat.

However, I will say that one cannot believe in Christianity and also believe in evolution or the big bang. The Biblical account of creation is contrary to the theory of evolution and the big bang.

Secondly, Jesus was not a philosopher or a good moral teacher. Jesus Is God.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM,

I won't comment much in this thread because a lot has been covered in the other threat.

However, I will say that one cannot believe in Christianity and also believe in evolution or the big bang. The Biblical account of creation is contrary to the theory of evolution and the big bang.

Secondly, Jesus was not a philosopher or a good moral teacher. Jesus Is God.

Your interpretation is yours to believe. It doesn't mean yours is correct either.

[Vangelovski]

Your interpretation is yours to believe. It doesn't mean yours is correct either.

Its not an interpretation - its what the Bible states in contradiction to what the evolutionary/big bang hypothesis states.

The order of events stated in the Bible are different to the order of events proposed by the evolutionary/big bang proponents.

For example, the Big Bang hypothesis argues that the stars came first and then the earth over a process of billions of years, whereas the Bible account tells us that the earth was created first and then the stars.

On the other point, that Jesus Is God, that is the entire message of the New Testament.

[TrueMacedonian]

Its not an interpretation - its what the Bible states in contradiction to what the evolutionary/big bang hypothesis states.

The order of events stated in the Bible are different to the order of events proposed by the evolutionary/big bang proponents.

For example, the Big Bang hypothesis argues that the stars came first and then the earth over a process of billions of years, whereas the Bible account tells us that the earth was created first and then the stars.

On the other point, that Jesus Is God, that is the entire message of the New Testament.

The Bible also states men of ages ranging from 200 to 900 years of age and that Noah took animals of every species in his ark while God flooded the earth. I think there has to be some balance between reality and fiction from what we take from the bible. I don't think that believing in the big bang theory should put someone in the category of "non-christian" because they don't believe every written word in the bible. That is your creationist interpretation.
What do you think about the 'sign of the cross' and its accuracy to christianity?

[Makedonetz]

I have a question, if God created man then why were their skulls found of humans that were neandrathals and homo sapiens? Did they come from Adam & Eve seeing Adam and Eve were made as humans by God and evidence of early humans had skulls shaped as primates?

Does the Bible touch on humans who were Hairy and such>?

just wonderinh././//

[Vangelovski]

Here are some articles which may provide you with some answers - depending on how open-minded you are and whether you are prepared to go where the evidence takes you. There are many more based on other scientific evidence, that get into the scientific 'nuts and bolts', but these are written in plain English. If you are genuinely interested, I can provide you with scientific works that dispel evolution and answer questions of longevity and Noah's ark more technically.

Evolution/ape men:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs...c8-22-2000.asp

Men living hundreds of years:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...over-900-years

Noah's ark:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...-flood-and-ark

[Vangelovski]

TM,

The sign of the cross is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. However, personally, I don't think its either right or wrong. It can be a good thing if it reminds someone of Jesus and/or the Trinity. On the other hand, if one just does it without understanding why I'm not sure of the point.

There are examples in the Bible such as standing, kneeling, prostrating ourselves, eyes lifted up, eyes cast down, clapping our hands and hands raised which not many people seem to use these days.

However, none of these are required for worhship, as true worship is defined by Jesus as follows:

John 4:23-24 says, "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Worship is a spiritual event, and true worship comes from the heart. If our worship is not heartfelt, it doesn’t matter what posture, sign or expression of worship we use. If our worship is from the heart, then God accepts it.

[makedonin]

If you go by the book, the cross sighn is idol, thus idolatory and in contradiction to the first commandment.

[Mastika]

TM,

I won't comment much in this thread because a lot has been covered in the other threat.

However, I will say that one cannot believe in Christianity and also believe in evolution or the big bang. The Biblical account of creation is contrary to the theory of evolution and the big bang.

Why can't someone believe this? This is pretty much what I believe. One should never forget the conext of the bible and the era during which it was written. Who is to say that [a] God didn't start off the Big Bang? For all we know, God could have chosen humans to develop and the Adam and Eve he chose were the first true homo sapiens to exist.

Not everyone agrees with every part of a religion, however this doesnt mean that they can't believe in the certain god/deity/spiritual force which that religion venerates. I am open minded, everone should have their own opinion. I believe that I live my earthly life to the fullest, however I also believe that there is more after death. That is my opinion.

[Vangelovski]

Why can't someone believe this? This is pretty much what I believe. One should never forget the conext of the bible and the era during which it was written. Who is to say that [a] God didn't start off the Big Bang? For all we know, God could have chosen humans to develop and the Adam and Eve he chose were the first true homo sapiens to exist.

Not everyone agrees with every part of a religion, however this doesnt mean that they can't believe in the certain god/deity/spiritual force which that religion venerates. I am open minded, everone should have their own opinion. I believe that I live my earthly life to the fullest, however I also believe that there is more after death. That is my opinion.

Mastika,

Did you read the following threads? I explain why you cannot believe the Bible AND Big Bang theory. The order of events (i.e., the creation of earth, stars etc) contradict each other.

At the end of the day, God has given people the ultimate choice and the free will to make that choice. You can either chose to believe in Him as He has revealed Himself to us in the Bible, or you can chose not to. People always ask for proof. Well, God Himself came down to earth and performed an abundance of wonders and miracles and nobody believed Him. Instead, they hated Him and killed Him on the cross. God the Son then rose three days later and people still didn't believe Him. So, we have a situation where God himself came down to earth and still everyone asks for proof. In my veiw, there is no greater proof than that.

This goes to my next point, and the heart of the Gospel - God does not send anyone to hell, people choose to go there through their own free will. If you choose to believe that Jesus died on the cross to atone for your sins, then repent and trust him alone as your God and savior, and you will go to Heaven. However, if you choose not to believe in Him and reject Him, then you have voluntarily made the decision not to go to Heaven.

[makedonin]

Mastika,

Did you read the following threads? I explain why you cannot believe the Bible AND Big Bang theory. The order or events (i.e., the creation of earth, stars etc) contradict each other.

The contradiction is in your interpretation. If you really take unbiased look at it, they only differe in one thing:

Science does not state what is beyond the beginning of the universe, before the creation, while religion states that God was before the beginning. Science says, we don't know what was there before, just point out that there was some singularity.

Both say, there was no creation(Universe) before the beginning. The one stops there, the other says God was before it.

But you don't want to comprehand that, it does not fit your interests, that is why you fight that so fiercely.

But hey, me again, talking to you , I really have to quit that habit.