Macedonian patriotic art

[Eddie_rebel]

Truthfully, if you think about it. Greece made you have it.

I can understand emotional attachments people can have to many things. I will never call anyone who loves the new flag a traitor, but I will question their knowledge of events leading up to the adoption of the new flag.

Traitor ? You are not in that position

The 8 rays sun is macedonian symbol just as the 16 rays sun. I question your knowledge on that. As I know the 8 rays sun is more common on the teroriry of Macedonia than the 16 rays sun or at least with the same number. Besides the 8+8=16 8 primary rays and 8 secundary

Almost same sun as the flag of the Republic of Macedonia (8 rays) is found in East R. Macedonia and it is older than any 16 rays (So caled Kutlesh) sun.

[indigen]

Traitor ? You are not in that position

The 8 rays sun is macedonian symbol just as the 16 rays sun. I question your knowledge on that. As I know the 8 rays sun is more common on the teroriry of Macedonia than the 16 rays sun or at least with the same number. Besides the 8+8=16 8 primary rays and 8 secondary

Almost same sun as the flag of the Republic of Macedonia (8 rays) is found in East R. Macedonia and it is older than any 16 rays (So caled Kutlesh) sun.

This topic was discussed in quite a lot of depth at following thread and I suggest you (and anyone else who is interested and has not done so previously) have a thorough read of it and consider the info presented there, especially take note of what Aleksandrov and Vangelovski put forward:

VENTILATOR: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=3315

[Soldier of Macedon]

Almost same sun as the flag of the Republic of Macedonia (8 rays) is found in East R. Macedonia and it is older than any 16 rays (So caled Kutlesh) sun.

Eddie, after several conversations with a number of people here, I am prepared to accept the following as the most logical explanation to this 'debate';

The old flag, irrespective of the design, was chosen freely.

The new flag, irrespective of the design, was chosen because some maggots to the south twisted the arms of our weak politicians. It's like calling ourselves 'northern' Macedonia as a result of a decision made under duress and then looking for justification and ways to legitimise it, after the fact.

Today, many Macedonians either don't know or have forgotten the circumstances. The old sun should always be given priority in all circumstances. The old sun is the symbol used by most if not all Macedonian diaspora groups, including the Macedonian minorities in countries that neighbour Macedonia, aside from the racist south. Only in the Republic of Macedonia do the weakling politicians allow such an injustice to continue.

[Risto the Great]

Traitor ? You are not in that position

The 8 rays sun is macedonian symbol just as the 16 rays sun. I question your knowledge on that. As I know the 8 rays sun is more common on the teroriry of Macedonia than the 16 rays sun or at least with the same number. Besides the 8+8=16 8 primary rays and 8 secundary

Almost same sun as the flag of the Republic of Macedonia (8 rays) is found in East R. Macedonia and it is older than any 16 rays (So caled Kutlesh) sun.

The Swastika symbol is also found in Macedonia. It was not freely chosen by Macedonians to represent them, nor was the new symbol.

[Eddie_rebel]

Eddie, after several conversations with a number of people here, I am prepared to accept the following as the most logical explanation to this 'debate';

The old flag, irrespective of the design, was chosen freely.

The new flag, irrespective of the design, was chosen because some maggots to the south twisted the arms of our weak politicians. It's like calling ourselves 'northern' Macedonia as a result of a decision made under duress and then looking for justification and ways to legitimise it, after the fact.

Today, many Macedonians either don't know or have forgotten the circumstances. The old sun should always be given priority in all circumstances. The old sun is the symbol used by most if not all Macedonian diaspora groups, including the Macedonian minorities in countries that neighbour Macedonia, aside from the racist south. Only in the Republic of Macedonia do the weakling politicians allow such an injustice to continue.

I like the old sun too

5000 years old!



Inspired from GIF by alex macedonian. Remade by me becouse of some mistakes (Govrlevo instead of Kratovo)

[Soldier of Macedon]

Eddie, I responded to you sensibly. Are you trying to play games with my words? You know exactly what I meant by 'old' and 'new'.

[Daniel the Great]

Eddie, the old 16 rayed sun is the true Macedonian flag simple as that. The new Macedonian flag was forced on to us by the Greeks. But i still believe we must respect the new 8 rayed flag.

[Bratot]

For God's sake, the sun is the symbol, all the varriants of the sun used by the Macedonians can and should be accepted as Macedonian.

[Risto the Great]

For God's sake, the sun is the symbol, all the varriants of the sun used by the Macedonians can and should be accepted as Macedonian.

I agree. However, there was only one that was freely accepted for use on the flag. Are you suggesting any sun symbol is acceptable on the flag?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Hahaha......

[Soldier of Macedon]

For God's sake, the sun is the symbol, all the varriants of the sun used by the Macedonians can and should be accepted as Macedonian.

Bratot, I accept the new flag as the symbol or the Macedonian state today, but never as the general symbol of the Macedonian people. And, if I was in a position to change it back to the original, I wouldn't think twice about it. As much as it has come to represent some things that aren't 'negative', it will always serve as a reminder of our politicians' capitulation in the face of Greek pressure.

[Bratot]

@Risto The Great

No, I'm suggesting that a specific sun variant, being 8 or 16 rayed yellow sun on a red background only, can be used for our flag.

I also "confiscate" all the versions of Macedonian symbols used by Macedonians as genuine Macedonian and respect them equally.

[indigen]

ВЛАДО ПОПОВСКИ, професор на правниот факултет

http://star.dnevnik.com.mk/?pBroj=2252&stID=22720

"....Тие дури сметаат дека албанското знаме е постаро и од албанската држава. Затоа Албанците каде и да живеат, преку знамето на Албанија го манифестираат сопствениот идентитет.

l Како тоа да го сфатат Македонците?

- Друго е прашањето што Македонците немаат етничко знаме. Кај Македонците е создадена свест дека преку државното знаме се манифестира и етничката припадност. Тоа, пак, кај албанското население создава претстава дека македонскиот народ го монополизира државното знаме во насока дека државата е само на Македонците, а не на сите граѓани.

l Зарем државно знаме содржи нешто тенденциозно спрема етничките чувства на Албанците?

- Симболот на официјалното знаме е универзален, а не етнички, и се однесува на сите граѓани. Друга ситуација ќе имавме со првото знаме што беше со ѕвездата од Кутлеш, која е од времето на Античка Македонија. Тогаш со тоа знаме би се идентификувале оние што се сметаат за потомци на Филип и на Александар Македонски.


The original 1992-95 RoM flag was in itself a MODIFIED (cut-down) version of the (TRUE) MACEDONIAN SUN SYMBOL (from Kutlesh and many other places) in order not to offend the Grks. Macedonians who knew and know their heritage did/do not utilise it but stick to the original design, which they have been using for many years prior 1992 mods.


Macedonian Rally - Sydney 9 May 1993 (amongst the 200 plus large Macedonian Sun Flags, NOT ONE Sonchogled (aka drzavno) zname in sight! There was an IDEOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE TO THIS RALLY!)

Larger image of above photo

10 години од промената на државното знаме
Весна В. Тодоровска
05.10.2005

Државното знаме е старо 10 години. На 5-ти октомври 95-тата, Македонија под притисок на Грција го усвои сегашното и ги замени 16-те краци од Кутлеш, откриени во 70-тите години на гробот на Филип Македонски.

И сега сме под притисок на Грција, овојпат за името. Добивме ли нешто со уставната промена на знамето?

„Таа одлука беше направена од незрелост од луѓето кои беа на власт, кои не ја сфаќаа силата на симболите и затоа го имаме овој проблем сега - дека еден голем дел од луѓето не го сфаќаат тоа знаме како свое“, изјави Јован Јоновски, претседател на македонското-хералдичко друштво.

„Не знам што беше таа промена која побаруваше да се променат државните симболи. Кога тие се променуваат - кога доаѓа до големи промени, во намалувањето на територии, зголемувањето на територии, нови царства, нови владетели. Кај нас не се случи ништо“, рече Јоновски.

За 15 години самостојност, државното знаме трипати се промени. Прво се тргна социјалистичката звезда, вторпат сонцето од Кутлеш. Денешното е направено по идеја на архитектот Грчев, иако тој вели дека не било идентично со неговиот предлог.

Ден пред седницата на која е изгласано знамето, тајно била донесена партиски договорена одлука за неговиот изглед, обвинува Грчев.

„Веројатно е резултат на некоја брза и нервозна дебата, која што целеше да ги смири политичките разлики“, изјави Мирослав Грчев, автор на студијата државно знаме.

Сегашново знаме нема автор - вели Грчев, кој не е задоволен од изгледот. Тоа е спротивно на принципот на златна пропорција.

„Македонија треба да направи еден чисто домаќински, занаетски и естетски напор, да го дотера знамето, не менувајќи ништо од неговиот израз, стилизација, мотив“, рече Грчев.

И денеска Македонија се соочува со проблемот државно знаме. Овие пратеници му дадоа шанса на туѓо државно знаме да се вее покрај македонското.

http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=52275

for fair use only.

The process of adoption of the current flag of Macedonia

In his book Znaci i ornamenti (Muzej na sovremena umetnost, Skopje 2005), Pr. Grcev (b. 1955, Professor of Urban Planning at the Faculty of Architecture of Skoplje) provides his original flag proposal and the construction sheet. The flag was designed to be in proportions 5:8 (being a nice approximation of the Golden section Φ, according to Grcev, with the mesh of 10 x 16 squares (let's call this length A) providing for the design elements - the central disk was to be circumscribing the central four such squares (i.e. having diameter of A*sqrt(2) ) while the eight yellow rays were to be triangles - the vertical rays with apexes in the centre of the flag and bases 2 Along, the horizontal rays with apexes one A away from the centre in opposite direction and bases also 2 A long. The diagonal rays had apexes in opposite corners of a rectangle 2 A wide and 1.25 A high (i.e. having diagonals matching the diagonals of the flag!) while having base 3 A long along the top and bottom edges and touching the host and fly edges - so that the flag diagonals from the division lines between red and yellow there.
Apparently the Parliament (or probably some of its committees) decided to amend the overall proportions and added the red ring around the sun disk.

Željko Heimer, 12 February 2009

At link below one can see a design by Grchev that appears to be his original intention:
http://www.msuskopje.org.mk/msu.php?...1&id=1&exhid=8

Original Grchev design clearly exposes the delusional claims about "ancient rock art" inspirations! :-)

[Bratot]

Bratot, I accept the new flag as the symbol or the Macedonian state today, but never as the general symbol of the Macedonian people. And, if I was in a position to change it back to the original, I wouldn't think twice about it. As much as it has come to represent some things that aren't 'negative', it will always serve as a reminder of our politicians' capitulation in the face of Greek pressure.

I agree with you, but the capitulation of our politicians can't be personificated in a flag itself as the same doesn't mean anything to them and they can't set the criteria of significance of any symbol representing the Macedonians.

I would change back the old flag as well, but I would never disrespect the current flag nor the people being under it when they DO feel a national pride.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

I feel a sense of pride wearing the old flag that I do not experience when I see the new flag. I still think we should respect it however, despite it being essentially imposed on Macedonia, it was still the flag chosen after those circumstances. Hopefully one day Macedonia learns to stand up for itself and change the flag back to the original one, against the will of the grks.

That aside I suggest we should stay on topic. I sense this thread derailing into another old and new flag debate.