Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • Rogi
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2343

    I should have been more explicit... the turnout in terms of who hopped on a bus isn't a measure of sentiment, but rather a reflection of the disinterest, apathy, laziness and general "its all been pre determined, out of our control" nature of the Macedonians in Macedonia.

    That's why I don't think there will be enough of a turnout.

    Those who are for, are for, and a portion of them will get out and vote for.

    Those who are against, are against, and will mostly boycott.

    The majority however, are probably against the name change, but for EU/NATO and are probably on the fence in terms of how they'd vote, but the disinterest, apathy, laziness and general view of it all being pretermined will weigh into them largely not getting out to vote.

    That's my theory anyway.

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15658

      Originally posted by Rogi View Post
      The majority however, are probably against the name change, but for EU/NATO and are probably on the fence in terms of how they'd vote, but the disinterest, apathy, laziness and general view of it all being pretermined will weigh into them largely not getting out to vote.
      I concur.
      .
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • Phoenix
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2008
        • 4671

        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        I don't find it strange because this is common practice and there is nothing covert or even dishonest about it. Coercion requires an unwillingness on the part of the other party. Who is being coerced? The certainly not the Zaev government, who wants this succeed just as much as the Americans do. The Macedonian people aren't being coerced either, at least not by the Americans, but frankly not even by their own government. By all accounts it seems a majority of the country is for the name change. So if anything the Americans can say they are on the side of democracy no?

        I know its hard for us to fathom that even a single Macedonian could willingly be for this, but the reality is that a probably majority are for this. Zaev and his supporters aren't being coerced, they really believe in this bullshit. So to look at any outside party and claim they had a significant hand in this, is not honest.

        What is so bewildering about the USA wanting Macedonia to be part of NATO, the Macedonian government wanting to be part of NATO, a probable majority of the Macedonian people wanting to be part of NATO and then the American government helping in the PR campaign to make it a reality?

        Can we really blame the Americans for looking after their interests? Isn't the blame on the group of people who decided that this was a good idea? I've yet to see a Macedonian with a gun to their head over this.

        If Macedonia were a wealthier and more powerful country, wouldn't we want Macedonia to lobby on behalf of Macedonian minorities in neighboring countries? Would we be upset if Macedonia "meddled" in Greek or Bulgarian elections or politics to the benefit of Macedonians? Doesn't Bulgaria directly fund and support pro Bulgarian elements within Macedonia? Isn't Russia hoping to derail the referendum on behalf of her own interests of splitting NATO apart? Russia's interests might align with ours on this matter, but isn't what they are doing meddling just the same? The fact that we are weak and useless and incapable of an influence doesn't mean we wouldn't if we could.

        The simple fact remains that all of those things are background noise, and exist in every country in the world. In the end if the will of the people is set on something, there is nothing outside parties can do. To be honest nothing dramatic is going on, neither from the Russians or the Americans, that goes to show how much either party really gives a shit.

        It hurts to admit, but we are acting like the fake made up ethnic group that our enemies have always claimed we are. I can put you in contact with leaders of Bojkaitram, UMD, Mladi za Makednonija, and you can make your own judgment about how much impact the Americans are having and how much of it is the willingness of actual Macedonians to go through with this and the ineptitude of the rest to do anything about it.
        Gocka, are you by any chance one of those Americans that gathers in Times Square to thump your chest whilst chanting USA, USA, USA - each time a cruise missile strikes Damascus, Baghdad or some shithole in the Horn of Africa...after all, you don't blame America for looking after her interests.

        More to the point, I think your view is clouded and severely conflicted...for example, you can't promote LOMA and the interests of Macedonia and be a patriotic American at the same time, they are two largely mutually exclusive pursuits...you need to be more honest with yourself..you can only be one and not both.

        Comment

        • Tomche Makedonche
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2011
          • 1123

          Macedonia Court Rejects Motion to Scrap 'Name' Referendum

          Macedonia’s Constitutional Court on Wednesday rejected an initiative to call off the September 30 referendum filed by various opponents of the Greece-Macedonia agreement.


          Macedonia Court Rejects Motion to Scrap 'Name' Referendum

          Macedonia’s Constitutional Court on Wednesday rejected an initiative to call off the September 30 referendum filed by various opponents of the Greece-Macedonia agreement.

          Macedonia's Constitutional Court voted by seven to two on Wednesday against an initiative that called for a assessment of the constitutionality and legality of parliament’s decision on July 30 to call for a referendum on the Greek-Macedonian "name" deal.

          Government spokesperson Mile Bosnjakovski said on Wednesday, after the court's decision was published, that Zoran Zaev's government would not comment on the ruling.

          The initiative filed by three separate subjects would have derailed the key referendum, which is likely to determine Macedonia’s Euro-Atlantic future, just ten days before the vote.

          Had it succeeded, it would have caused political turmoil, with potentially dire international implications. Both Zaev's government and its Western allies stand firmly behind the "name" agreement and the associated referendum.

          Under the deal signed with Greece this summer, Macedonia agreed to change its name to the Republic of North Macedonia, while Greece agreed to lift its long-standing veto on Macedonia's NATO and EU integration.

          But for the deal to take effect, Macedonian citizens must affirm the referendum question, which reads: “Do you support EU and NATO membership by accepting the deal between Macedonia and Greece?”

          The initiative against the referendum came before the court as a result of three separate motions filed by the far-left non-parliamentary “Levica” party, the Pan-Macedonian Association World Macedonian Congress and a private citizen from the town of Kumanovo.

          The first two groups have strongly condemned the Greek deal as harmful to Macedonian national interests and say the vote should be boycotted.

          As a result of the motions, Constitutional Court Judge Elena Gosheva, who acted as the court’s rapporteur in this case, proposed issuing a temporary measure to suspend the referendum. The majority of her colleagues disagreed, however.

          Among other things, the motions argued that Macedonia's Foreign Minister, Nikola Dimitrov, had no legal right to sign the “name” agreement, and insisted that only President Gjorge Ivanov – who is also against the deal – could have done so.

          The now rejected motions also disputed the parliament’s decision to call for the referendum, and disputed the referendum question itself.

          According to them, the question was unclear and manipulative because it does not treat the country’s Euro-Atlantic accession process and the “name” deal as two separate things.
          “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

          Comment

          • Gocka
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2012
            • 2306

            And there goes that avenue.

            To summarize:

            The courts will let this go through
            The main opposition party is quietly supporting this
            The one and only response is lets stay home and wait it out.

            Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
            http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti...dum-09-19-2018

            Macedonia Court Rejects Motion to Scrap 'Name' Referendum

            Macedonia’s Constitutional Court on Wednesday rejected an initiative to call off the September 30 referendum filed by various opponents of the Greece-Macedonia agreement.

            Macedonia's Constitutional Court voted by seven to two on Wednesday against an initiative that called for a assessment of the constitutionality and legality of parliament’s decision on July 30 to call for a referendum on the Greek-Macedonian "name" deal.

            Government spokesperson Mile Bosnjakovski said on Wednesday, after the court's decision was published, that Zoran Zaev's government would not comment on the ruling.

            The initiative filed by three separate subjects would have derailed the key referendum, which is likely to determine Macedonia’s Euro-Atlantic future, just ten days before the vote.

            Had it succeeded, it would have caused political turmoil, with potentially dire international implications. Both Zaev's government and its Western allies stand firmly behind the "name" agreement and the associated referendum.

            Under the deal signed with Greece this summer, Macedonia agreed to change its name to the Republic of North Macedonia, while Greece agreed to lift its long-standing veto on Macedonia's NATO and EU integration.

            But for the deal to take effect, Macedonian citizens must affirm the referendum question, which reads: “Do you support EU and NATO membership by accepting the deal between Macedonia and Greece?”

            The initiative against the referendum came before the court as a result of three separate motions filed by the far-left non-parliamentary “Levica” party, the Pan-Macedonian Association World Macedonian Congress and a private citizen from the town of Kumanovo.

            The first two groups have strongly condemned the Greek deal as harmful to Macedonian national interests and say the vote should be boycotted.

            As a result of the motions, Constitutional Court Judge Elena Gosheva, who acted as the court’s rapporteur in this case, proposed issuing a temporary measure to suspend the referendum. The majority of her colleagues disagreed, however.

            Among other things, the motions argued that Macedonia's Foreign Minister, Nikola Dimitrov, had no legal right to sign the “name” agreement, and insisted that only President Gjorge Ivanov – who is also against the deal – could have done so.

            The now rejected motions also disputed the parliament’s decision to call for the referendum, and disputed the referendum question itself.

            According to them, the question was unclear and manipulative because it does not treat the country’s Euro-Atlantic accession process and the “name” deal as two separate things.

            Comment

            • Gocka
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2012
              • 2306

              That is so weak, and insulting, why? I fucking put in time and effort to explain myself thoroughly and thoughtfully and you respond with a turd. Are you one of those people who wears tin foil hats and has an opposing view and every single event and fact in the world?

              You can't blame any country for looking after their own interests, in the context of political maneuvers. You are focused like a fly on shit about something that is totally meaningless. You keeping whining about the USA any chance you can get, what is the point. So what if the USA supports Macedonian accession into NATO, that doesn't change anything in terms of what Macedonians in Macedonia need to do, so what is the point of bitching about it 24/7? You can't control what others do, all you can control is how much it impacts you. They can send the fucking pope to Macedonia to try and move this along, what difference does it fucking make if you don't listen to them? Why would I not expect the USA to advocate for this? Why would I not expect Russia to try and derail this.

              Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
              Gocka, are you by any chance one of those Americans that gathers in Times Square to thump your chest whilst chanting USA, USA, USA - each time a cruise missile strikes Damascus, Baghdad or some shithole in the Horn of Africa...after all, you don't blame America for looking after her interests.
              Again TURD. How am I conflicted for saying that I am not surprised nor upset by the USA doing exactly what you would expect them to do. I never said it was in line with what I want fro Macedonia, but again it is something you can not control and a total waste of time to focus on. Who said I'm a patriotic American? By stating the obvious? You also can't live in in alternate reality and pretend you are sincere about doing anything in the real world. Maybe you should also look at yourself and ask what your contribution to the matter is, since you are not conflicted like I am.

              More to the point, I think your view is clouded and severely conflicted...for example, you can't promote LOMA and the interests of Macedonia and be a patriotic American at the same time, they are two largely mutually exclusive pursuits...you need to be more honest with yourself..you can only be one and not both.

              Comment

              • Bill77
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2009
                • 4545

                The treatment by these Sekerinska led socialists/globalist treacherous turds, against a concerned anti-referendum, old man...... is unsettling. Sorry i can only supply a Twitter link from LOMA.

                They threaten him, mock and laugh at him, they snatch his question list, cut of the sound of his microphone....

                The threat of violence, suppressing free speech, intimidation are just some forms of fascism leftists have in their arsenal these days. Not sure if it was Ronald Reagan that actually said this, but.... "If Fascism ever comes back, it will come in the name of Liberalism"

                http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                Comment

                • Gocka
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2012
                  • 2306

                  You shouldn't post our stuff from LOMA. We are clearly conflicted and anti Macedonian.

                  Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
                  The treatment by these Sekerinska led socialists/globalist treacherous turds, against a concerned anti-referendum, old man...... is unsettling. Sorry i can only supply a Twitter link from LOMA.

                  They threaten him, mock and laugh at him, they snatch his question list, cut of the sound of his microphone....

                  The threat of violence, suppressing free speech, intimidation are just some forms of fascism leftists have in their arsenal these days. Not sure if it was Ronald Reagan that actually said this, but.... "If Fascism ever comes back, it will come in the name of Liberalism"

                  https://twitter.com/patkarka/status/1042487938679009286

                  Comment

                  • Phoenix
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2008
                    • 4671

                    Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                    You shouldn't post our stuff from LOMA. We are clearly conflicted and anti Macedonian.
                    Just for once, I’d like to see you concede that the US has played Macedonia on many occasions in the last 3 decades...that’s all.

                    Comment

                    • Bill77
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 4545

                      Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                      You shouldn't post our stuff from LOMA. We are clearly conflicted and anti Macedonian.
                      I don't think Phoenix is suggesting this and i understand your reply is sarcasm..... but anyway
                      http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                      Comment

                      • Tomche Makedonche
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2011
                        • 1123

                        Outside of the Balkans, Macedonia is a country rarely on the radar. Yet, this month, its two million people are at the center of an illusory tug-of-war.


                        Western leaders descend on Macedonian 'battleground' as Moscow pulls its punches

                        Outside of the Balkans, Macedonia is a country rarely on the radar. Yet, this month, its two million people are at the center of an illusory tug-of-war.

                        As September destinations go, it has plenty of appeal. Daytime temperatures are between 27 and 30 degrees Celsius (80-86 Fahrenheit), nights are balmy and there's plenty of sunshine. Nevertheless, Skopje has never been a noted early autumn stopping point for Westerners. Until this year.

                        In the past week alone, a procession of luminaries has touched down in the Macedonian capital, including German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas, US Defence Secretary James Mattis and his Italian counterpart Elisabetta Trenta plus the European Union foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini. Meanwhile, earlier this month, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz and Angela Merkel also dropped into town. The latter's jaunt marking the first ever official visit by a German chancellor. These are big fish, representing a considerable amount of political heft. And none of them travelled to check out Skopje's Old Bazaar. Instead, the reason for this sudden enthusiasm boils down to the latest attempt to extend NATO and EU influence in Eastern Europe. And Macedonia is one of the few remaining* "prizes" in "National Endowment for Democracy"speak.

                        Big ballot

                        On September 30, the landlocked ex-Yugoslav republic holds a referendum on whether to change the name of the country, from plain-old "Macedonia" to "North Macedonia." A transformation which amounts to locals renouncing their connection to the ancient Macedonians (such as Alexander the Great, among others) and acquiescing to the neighboring Greeks, who have vetoed Skopje's accession to various Western institutions since it broke away from Belgrade, over a quarter of a century ago. Athens believes the current definition possibly gives Skopje a claim to some of its territory and historical traditions.

                        Aware of sensitivities over the whole name issue, the government has decided to make the question broader. Thus, it's gone for the jugular: "Do you support EU and NATO membership by accepting the agreement between Macedonia and Greece?" A move the opposition regards as cynical.

                        In the "Yes" camp is Prime Minister Zoran Zaev and his ruling coalition. And they are supported by much of the local mainstream media and the numerous Brussels and Washington-funded NGOs working there. The "No" side is led by Hristijan Mickoski's nationalists who regard the Zaev-Alexis Tsipras accord as an act of treason. However, the movement still wants to join the EU and NATO, but under the state's current title.

                        The other naysayers, Janko Bacev's United Macedonia party, are opposed to Western integration and in favour stronger ties with Moscow. Yet, despite these intentions, the Kremlin hasn't exactly circled the wagons to offer support. So far, the most notable backer he's attracted from Russia is Alexander Dugin, an academic fired from his last teaching post at Moscow State University in 2014, who doesn't appear to have secured meaningful employment since. Indeed, Dugin is arguably better known in the West where media outlets use his image, or a caricature of it, as a bogeyman. Think Rasputin, if Rasputin never had access to Tsar Nikolai's family, and couldn't even get a gig in St Petersburg.

                        Problems with projection

                        During his visit this week, Mattis accused Moscow of meddling in the campaign. He presented no evidence, but stated: "(there is) no doubt that they (the Russians) have transferred money and they are also conducting broader influence campaigns." For its part, the Kremlin rubbished the notion of interference, although it does strongly oppose Skopje's NATO ambitions.

                        Step back a moment and note Mattis' comments about "influence campaigns." Because the sudden rush of leading politicians from Washington, Brussels, Rome, Vienna and Berlin amounts to a persuasion crusade which Moscow couldn't match even if it somehow managed to resurrect Yuri Gagarin and had him conduct a flyover of Skopje.

                        Right now, Western elites, for whatever reason, seem determined to "win" Macedonia and are heavily invested. And Russia's exasperated officials simply can't compete. "We see conscious and purposeful information campaigns, forcing Russophobic hysteria and intimidating people with the 'Russian threat,' in order to achieve specific domestic and foreign policy goals," complained Moscow's ambassador, Oleg Shcherbak, last month.

                        Sources in the Kremlin seem pretty nonplussed by Macedonia's choice. "To be honest, Macedonia and Montenegro (which joined NATO last year) don't really matter, outside of the effect their relationship with Washington might have on Serbia," an insider says. "This can work two ways, it can make Serbs afraid of being isolated in the Balkans or it can make them doubly determined to keep their independence and their friendship with Russia. The jury is out on what will happen."

                        According to opinion polls, the "yes" side will carry the referendum. A US-funded survey puts the margin at 49 percent-22 percent and a local equivalent calls it as 41 percent-35 percent.

                        With Moscow's attention increasingly focused on Asia, and its resistance to NATO expansion concentrated on borderlands such as Ukraine and Georgia, whether Macedonia remains independent, under its current name, or joins NATO and the EU as North Macedonia isn't something where it has much leverage. That said, the Kremlin's Western rivals appear to be heavily invested in shaping the outcome they desire.
                        “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                        Comment

                        • Gocka
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2012
                          • 2306

                          Do you Charlie Brown it when you read my stuff? Wah wah wah wah USA wah wah wah USA wah wah wah.

                          Of course the USA has played Macedonia like a fiddle. So has everyone else who has given it a go. I've never denied that the USA and others meddle, I have never denied that the meddling can and has been to our detriment. Your blatant bias doesn't allow you to read what I say objectively, you refuse to give me the benefit of the doubt simply because I live in the USA. So if I don't go around and qualify everything with fuck the USA, then I am conflicted.

                          All I am trying to say over and over again is that if we choose to not let the USA play us, then they can't play us. You should always expect all vested parties in an matter to try and influence matters in their favor. That is something we just need to acknowledge and put aside. What the real focus should always be is how do you make sure you make the right choices and are immune to outside influence.

                          “Whenever men and women straighten their backs up, they are going somewhere, because a man can't ride your back unless it is bent”

                          MLK jr

                          The USA, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, the Albanians, they all fuck us in the ass, and only because we let them. What is so wrong, so conflicted, so controversial about that point of view?

                          Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                          Just for once, I’d like to see you concede that the US has played Macedonia on many occasions in the last 3 decades...that’s all.

                          Comment

                          • Gocka
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2012
                            • 2306

                            Sorry mate couldn't resit, you popped in at an opportune moment.

                            Thanks for posting that here. I implore people to watch that, and then tell me there aren't Macedonians willing to support the name change. Poor old dude, wish I was there to hand out a few black eyes.

                            Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
                            I don't think Phoenix is suggesting this and i understand your reply is sarcasm..... but anyway

                            Comment

                            • Gocka
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2012
                              • 2306

                              Seriously what happened to the Ruski's? I expected more effort from them.

                              Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                              https://www.rt.com/op-ed/438826-mace...mes-mattis-eu/

                              Western leaders descend on Macedonian 'battleground' as Moscow pulls its punches

                              Outside of the Balkans, Macedonia is a country rarely on the radar. Yet, this month, its two million people are at the center of an illusory tug-of-war.

                              As September destinations go, it has plenty of appeal. Daytime temperatures are between 27 and 30 degrees Celsius (80-86 Fahrenheit), nights are balmy and there's plenty of sunshine. Nevertheless, Skopje has never been a noted early autumn stopping point for Westerners. Until this year.

                              In the past week alone, a procession of luminaries has touched down in the Macedonian capital, including German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas, US Defence Secretary James Mattis and his Italian counterpart Elisabetta Trenta plus the European Union foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini. Meanwhile, earlier this month, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz and Angela Merkel also dropped into town. The latter's jaunt marking the first ever official visit by a German chancellor. These are big fish, representing a considerable amount of political heft. And none of them travelled to check out Skopje's Old Bazaar. Instead, the reason for this sudden enthusiasm boils down to the latest attempt to extend NATO and EU influence in Eastern Europe. And Macedonia is one of the few remaining* "prizes" in "National Endowment for Democracy"speak.

                              Big ballot

                              On September 30, the landlocked ex-Yugoslav republic holds a referendum on whether to change the name of the country, from plain-old "Macedonia" to "North Macedonia." A transformation which amounts to locals renouncing their connection to the ancient Macedonians (such as Alexander the Great, among others) and acquiescing to the neighboring Greeks, who have vetoed Skopje's accession to various Western institutions since it broke away from Belgrade, over a quarter of a century ago. Athens believes the current definition possibly gives Skopje a claim to some of its territory and historical traditions.

                              Aware of sensitivities over the whole name issue, the government has decided to make the question broader. Thus, it's gone for the jugular: "Do you support EU and NATO membership by accepting the agreement between Macedonia and Greece?" A move the opposition regards as cynical.

                              In the "Yes" camp is Prime Minister Zoran Zaev and his ruling coalition. And they are supported by much of the local mainstream media and the numerous Brussels and Washington-funded NGOs working there. The "No" side is led by Hristijan Mickoski's nationalists who regard the Zaev-Alexis Tsipras accord as an act of treason. However, the movement still wants to join the EU and NATO, but under the state's current title.

                              The other naysayers, Janko Bacev's United Macedonia party, are opposed to Western integration and in favour stronger ties with Moscow. Yet, despite these intentions, the Kremlin hasn't exactly circled the wagons to offer support. So far, the most notable backer he's attracted from Russia is Alexander Dugin, an academic fired from his last teaching post at Moscow State University in 2014, who doesn't appear to have secured meaningful employment since. Indeed, Dugin is arguably better known in the West where media outlets use his image, or a caricature of it, as a bogeyman. Think Rasputin, if Rasputin never had access to Tsar Nikolai's family, and couldn't even get a gig in St Petersburg.

                              Problems with projection

                              During his visit this week, Mattis accused Moscow of meddling in the campaign. He presented no evidence, but stated: "(there is) no doubt that they (the Russians) have transferred money and they are also conducting broader influence campaigns." For its part, the Kremlin rubbished the notion of interference, although it does strongly oppose Skopje's NATO ambitions.

                              Step back a moment and note Mattis' comments about "influence campaigns." Because the sudden rush of leading politicians from Washington, Brussels, Rome, Vienna and Berlin amounts to a persuasion crusade which Moscow couldn't match even if it somehow managed to resurrect Yuri Gagarin and had him conduct a flyover of Skopje.

                              Right now, Western elites, for whatever reason, seem determined to "win" Macedonia and are heavily invested. And Russia's exasperated officials simply can't compete. "We see conscious and purposeful information campaigns, forcing Russophobic hysteria and intimidating people with the 'Russian threat,' in order to achieve specific domestic and foreign policy goals," complained Moscow's ambassador, Oleg Shcherbak, last month.

                              Sources in the Kremlin seem pretty nonplussed by Macedonia's choice. "To be honest, Macedonia and Montenegro (which joined NATO last year) don't really matter, outside of the effect their relationship with Washington might have on Serbia," an insider says. "This can work two ways, it can make Serbs afraid of being isolated in the Balkans or it can make them doubly determined to keep their independence and their friendship with Russia. The jury is out on what will happen."

                              According to opinion polls, the "yes" side will carry the referendum. A US-funded survey puts the margin at 49 percent-22 percent and a local equivalent calls it as 41 percent-35 percent.

                              With Moscow's attention increasingly focused on Asia, and its resistance to NATO expansion concentrated on borderlands such as Ukraine and Georgia, whether Macedonia remains independent, under its current name, or joins NATO and the EU as North Macedonia isn't something where it has much leverage. That said, the Kremlin's Western rivals appear to be heavily invested in shaping the outcome they desire.

                              Comment

                              • Tomche Makedonche
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2011
                                • 1123

                                Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                                All I am trying to say over and over again is that if we choose to not let the USA play us, then they can't play us. You should always expect all vested parties in an matter to try and influence matters in their favor. That is something we just need to acknowledge and put aside. What the real focus should always be is how do you make sure you make the right choices and are immune to outside influence.

                                “Whenever men and women straighten their backs up, they are going somewhere, because a man can't ride your back unless it is bent”

                                MLK jr

                                The USA, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, the Albanians, they all fuck us in the ass, and only because we let them.
                                Can’t disagree with any of that, these are also my views.
                                Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 09-19-2018, 09:42 PM.
                                “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                                Comment

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