Makedonski Izbori 2011 (5-ti juni) - Macedonian Elections 2011 (5th June)

[indigen]

Here's a newsflash, Macedonians existed and evolved after Alexander.

Exactly, but my question was in relation to the claim that was made.

So what? The communist star was an official state symbol. Is that more valid than the lion?

Why are you talking nonsense here?

Here is another newsflash. Matkovski didn't invent the symbol nor was he the first person to mention it in relation to Macedonia.

Wow I am dazzled by all these flashes!

When you make such insinuations, you need to back them up, so either do it here, on another thread, or quit creating fantasies.

Matkovski himself explains how the "zemski grb" came about and those crowns on the lion's head, especially the one on the dPmNE lavce variety are/is NOT that of high royalty such as an emperor or a sovereign monarch. Do your own research and see if that is not the case.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Indigen, with the amount of time you've used the black kettle line in your posts, there can be no doubt that you're dazzling with some severe flashes. Turn off the repeater and try some new material. Do you consider the lion in any form as a historical Macedonian symbol at all?

[indigen]

Indigen, with the amount of time you've used the black kettle line in your posts, there can be no doubt that you're dazzling with some severe flashes. Turn off the repeater and try some new material.

Mate, I don't want to spend ANY time trying to make an art form out of put downs and thus that is one emotional surge suppressor I can effectively use as it does not require too much effort and no use by date applies to it. Personal insults, as long as they are directed at myself only, usually will not cause me to blow my fuse but it could happen for ideological/political reasons at some given time and in some particular setting. My aim at MTO has been generally to post some less accessible info that some of the more politically advanced members could read and make use of and I rarely get into discussions on threads I did not start or with new or less politically minded/active members.

In this topic, it was I that first posted and made some comments on news about the new PPD logo that others responded to and then things escalated from there. This type of scenario can be seen in many topics I have started because many of them challenge the ingrained political and ideological belief system held by most MTO forum members, and many Macedonians in general. But that has always been the purpose of such topics - to challenge the political and ideological status quo and initiate some rethinking.

Do you consider the lion in any form as a historical Macedonian symbol at all?

If you read through the thread attentively rather than coming to look for a subjective cat fight, you will see that I have answered your question in full.

Indigen: Based on the available (though significant) coin collections online, it seems to have been rarely used on Macedonian coin issues, and at a very late stage at that. Can you provide evidence for your above claim that it is "the ONLY ancient symbol that has been used in continuity through all ages, without interruptions, by Macedonians" for the period I raised in my question to Volk???

Bratoto: I already did.

NO YOU HAVE NOT!

Indigen: We have by now ESTABLISHED OUR NATIONAL SYMBOLS and we don't need to BLINDLY LURCH after every symbol used by Macedonians at some point in our history BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE NEED TO COVER UP OUR COLLECTIVE NATIONAL COWARDICE AND IN ORDER TO ABSOLVE THE TRAITORS OF THEIR TREASONOUS ACTS IN COMMITTING NATIONAL CAPITULATION! We need to show a SPIRIT OF RESISTANCE and FLY OUR ALREADY ESTABLISHED SYMBOLS if we want to display our Macedonian patriotism!


Above is some reinforcement evidence for one of our long established national symbols - the MACEDONIAN LION!

Secondly, you were rather RUDE and CRUDE in the way you IGNORANTLY dismissed my rather very ACCURATE (prove me wrong if you can!) OBSERVATION that the crown on the most popular lion symbol currently in use by Macedonians (e.g. the dPmNE party one) IS NOT of any royal monarch but that of a low-ranking VASSAL (a BAN/Duke or something along those lines).

Bratot: As we can see, there is a lion.
But does this version of lion is depicted identically as all the rest symbols of Lions in our history? Especially the ESTABLISHED Coat of arms?
-No!

Indigen
The lion symbol needs some more thought by Macedonians and it has NOT become an official national symbol yet. The dPmNE one is certainly one I would reject - totally! Most of our info for Grbovi comes filtered via the YugoSLAV (and socialist) ideological filters, as does much of the Macedonian national narrative, and a fresh new nationalist perspective needs to be adopted on many issues. The Macedonian Sun Flag (the original design) does not suffer from such ideological deficiencies.

Most of our info for Grbovi comes filtered via the YugoSLAV (and socialist) ideological filters, as does much of the Macedonian national narrative, and a fresh new nationalist perspective needs to be adopted on many issues.

SOM: Do you want to elaborate on what you mean with that? Macedonians were using the lion symbol well before the birth of Yugoslavia.

Indigen: Aleksandar Matkovski has been very influential on this topic and thus we have lion symbols that he designated the "Makedonski zemski grb" as the de facto, or a stylised variation of same, lion symbol most prevalent in Macedonia. As of late (because I did not give much thought to the issue before), I have come to have some serious ideological concerns about the VASSAL CROWNS represented on the "Zemski grb" lion because, IMO, it reinforces the political VASSAL mentality prevalent amongst Macedonians in some respects.

SOM
When you make such insinuations, you need to back them up, so either do it here, on another thread, or quit creating fantasies.

Indigen
Matkovski himself explains how the "zemski grb" came about and those crowns on the lion's head, especially the one on the dPmNE lavce variety are/is NOT that of high royalty such as an emperor or a sovereign monarch. Do your own research and see if that is not the case.

I am now waiting for your research to prove me wrong or, if you have it in you, to apologise for your ignorant insults! I should think the sky will fall down before an apology is forthcoming from the likes of your highness!


Some people seem to align with some of my views for some of the time.

Originally Posted by indigen
we don't need to BLINDLY LURCH after every symbol used by Macedonians at some point in our history BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE NEED TO COVER UP OUR COLLECTIVE NATIONAL COWARDICE AND IN ORDER TO ABSOLVE THE TRAITORS OF THEIR TREASONOUS ACTS IN COMMITTING NATIONAL CAPITULATION

Just in case someone missed it the first time. I think this sums up the idiotic quest that some Macedonians have undertaken quite well.

How is this for a laugh:"...Indigen and those 'who share his views', is that it? I share most of his views...." (SOM).

Personally, based on hindsight, I doubt very much that you share "most" of my views, at least not in full.

[Mastika]

Just wondering if anyone can confirm this, but is it true that SDSM have nominated an Albanian to be their candidate for the Europe/Africa electoral zone.