A response from Vodenka

[osiris]

there is more than one way to ksin a cat, and more than one way to razbuddah. south koreans reckon they are different to northerners and even germans feel that ossies are not like their wetern countrymen.

[TrueMacedonian]

If we step into the shoes of an everyday Macedonian who lives in Occupied Aegean Macedonia perhaps we might feel a bit betrayed by the Republics government for not acknowledging the Macedonians plight against "hellenic" terrorism earlier(especially in the 90's). Also we should consider that only recently has someone in power in Macedonia (Gruevski) been telling the occupiers to respect the rights of the Macedonian minority. I have a strange feeling that after the elections the volume of discussions about a Macedonian minority suffering basic human rights in modern "greece" will increase which in turn may make the Macedonians in the Egej feel the support I think they have always wanted.

As for Vodenkas (and many other Macedonians) hatred for the term "minority" to be included after Macedonian I can't say I disagree with her. However what would it imply to the world if that addage is not included? Would the modern "greeks" like Dirty Dora say "see they have territorial aspirations". So as much as I think we all wouldn't mind seeing "minority" vanish it unfortunately is necessary.

RTG is right. Time to build bridges.

[Daskalot]

If we go down the path that Vodenka suggests then we have in effect dug our own grave, as I see it, the only way forward is to follow the Rainbow, anything else is playing into the hands of the Greeks.

[osiris]

rainbow has not been all that successful despite they brave and tireless work of its members, another path is neccassary, cant see what the fuss is about.

[Daskalot]

Then I must ask, what is the recipie for success? Rainbow has made great efforts to make way for a Macedonian minority in Greece, the thing they lack is the passion of the people. Why? Because our fellow Macedonians in Greece think that they are different to the Macedonians of the Republic. To this day I have not seen or heard of any other Macedonian organization achieving what Rainbow has done.

[makedonin]

divide and conquer..... we Macedonians must be united whether we are from the Republic, Bulgaria or Greece does not matter.

Exactly. Se dodeka nema isti interesi i celi, nema edinstvo.

What all seem to forget (egejci i vardarci) no one has to do the runner for the Macedonian alone, cause it is wrong and leads to nowhere.

As long as there is such thing as "I am more Macedonian than you" we lose.

But ain't that the same thing that happened back than. They all said " I have the better idea how to free Macedonia" and that's why they lost.

[Risto the Great]

Exactly. Se dodeka nema isti interesi i celi, nema edinstvo.

Imash pravo.

But this is like having an argument with a child. They are not as developed in their ethnic awareness as the Macedonians of the Republic. They will lose any argument about the Macedonian identity as soon as they delve into it. Once they make the leap of faith, there is no turning back.

I cannot understand that there is so much reluctance to do anything to assist the Macedonian movement forward in Greece. Why not promote the ethnicity and not the nationality? If it sounds like it, looks like it, celebrates like it .... it is it.

Whilst many appear to be disappointed in my opinions on this matter, I am more disappointed in the completely intolerant perspective of many of you. How many times do I have to say it .... Vinozito makes us get a warm glow in our hearts, they do fuck all for the Macedonians in Greece. Is it us or them that you are interested in?

p.s. I am not taking aim directly at you Makedonin. I have a deep respect for your opinions and contributions here.

[Risto the Great]

rainbow has not been all that successful despite they brave and tireless work of its members, another path is neccassary, cant see what the fuss is about.

Same here.
This is obvious to you, me and the fence post.

[makedonin]

p.s. I am not taking aim directly at you Makedonin.

Don't worry RtG, I can feel your sentiment and respect you. We are on the same side

[Daskalot]

Risto, my ethnicity is Macedonian I am not a Macedonian in a national sense. So if my compatriots in Greece does not consider us to be the same, what are they then? Which ethnic name should they go by?

[Risto the Great]

Risto, my ethnicity is Macedonian I am not a Macedonian in a national sense. So if my compatriots in Greece does not consider us to be the same, what are they then? Which ethnic name should they go by?

They have not thought that much about it Daskalot. Will you banish your children for their misguided opinions?

[VMRO]

Guys, you have to remember, for many years many Macedonians in the Aegean part of Macedonia didn't even know that there are Macedonians over the border in the Vardar part of Macedonia, they were taught that only Serbs lived in the north.
When the Macedonians were forced out to find a better life from their homes to Canada, Australia, US etc that they met Macedonians from the Vardar part who were exactly the same as them, same culture, language etc that they find out that there was Macedonians there as well.

Over one hundred years in isolation and restriction has damaged our people, something we should never forgive nor forget.

[Daskalot]

They have not thought that much about it Daskalot. Will you banish your children for their misguided opinions?

No I would not do such a thing that would be against my nature as a teacher, I would educate them instead ;-)

[Risto the Great]

Guys, you have to remember, for many years many Macedonians in the Aegean part of Macedonia didn't even know that there are Macedonians over the border in the Vardar part of Macedonia, they were taught that only Serbs lived in the north.
When the Macedonians were forced out to find a better life from their homes to Canada, Australia, US etc that they met Macedonians from the Vardar part who were exactly the same as them, same culture, language etc that they find out that there was Macedonians there as well.

Over one hundred years in isolation and restriction has damaged our people, something we should never forgive nor forget.

Spot on! They are "damaged goods". My motherinlaw was "educated" as a child in Greece that all Bulgarians had one-eye. She was scared shitless as a kid when she heard there was a Bulgarian in town. God knows what they heard about the "Serbs" in the North.

[Bratot]

Bratot,
I don't think you could be more disappointed than I was when I first went there. All of your opinions are based on someone from the outside looking in. Whilst valid, they are of no significance whatsoever because they will not create the necessary changes that need to take place.

I accept that you have no pre-judgements about the Aegean dialects. But they do about the modern Macedonian language. I can't say I was particularly enamored with finally learning what "vetse" and "vikend" means. Do you want to get offended about it and abandon these people altogether? Or is it better to build bridges?

You are not sure what else needs to be defined for the Republic. How about the Republic's back against the wall in relation to the Ohrid Agreement? Are we happy with it? How are we going to sell that kind of capitulation to our lost brothers over the border? I guarantee they would rather be Macedonians (with rights) in Greece than Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia. If this is beyond comprehension for you, I cannot explain it any clearer.

You were suggesting I was talking about how loved the Macedonians of Greece were feeling from the politicians of Macedonia. I say it comes from everywhere. Only the Macedonians in the Diaspora really acknowledge how much we all have in common. Our own Priest who comes from Bitola and has Grandparents from my Father's village in Egej even called them Greeks when he first came to Australia. It took him a while to figure it out.

I understand you never expected to hear this. How will your disappointment end up Bratot? Will you choose to do nothing about it? That has been the case for about 100 years now. And nothing much has happened.

What do you propose?

We don't understand eachother Risto, probably because we come from different background and we have met totally opposite ppl from the Aegean.

I mentioned once that my family origin from one side (mother) is from Kostursko and that part of my family was deported 60 years ago far to Poland. To make it more disapointing, except my grandma nobody else have survived. So this is pretty deep issue for me and I feel it as my duty to preserve.

The ppl from the aegean who found their home in the Republic are pretty big group and I wouldnt agree with you that the ties among us and the macedonians still living in today Greece are weak.

You probably don't know how difficult for the Macedonians from the Republic is to get the Greek VISA and to go visit their relatives down. But what is stopping the Macedonians living down to come more often in the Republic? Why it has to be only one way solution, cause if you don't show any feedback it's hard to maintain the relation.
Last time I was down 4 years ago, first I was kept 2 hours by the Greek police for questioning the same minute I steped on Solun airport.

On the way back home we ( me and a friend of mine from Lerin) were stopped by a old man (around 70) on the highway. When we took him with us for a ride to the next village we had a conversation from which came out that he is a local, Macedonian, who doesnt speak Macedonian nor any related dialect but pure Serbian language.

And please, we talk here about the Republic policy toward aegean Macedonian problem and the name issue. Don't mix it with the Albanians because there are completely different subject.

And coming out with individual examples by your and mine side wont help us in this discussion, since you already put yourself on Vodenka side.
I certanly wont chose Vodenka way to solve the problems, I strongly disagree with you on this matter.

Giving up it's not an option for me. As it is for somebody else.