Which Came First - Tito's Macedonians or Pulevski's Macedonians?

[George S.]

Its the chicken or the egg.

[Karposh]

I finally worked out the answer to the thread heading.....Macedonians came before Tito & Pulevski!

I couldn't have put it better myself. That's the whole point of this thread and you managed to wrap it up in a nutshell. Short and sweet. Thankyou makedonche.

[makedonche]

I couldn't have put it better myself. That's the whole point of this thread and you managed to wrap it up in a nutshell. Short and sweet. Thankyou makedonche.

Karposh
Thanks bratche

[George S.]

Good on you for that we know georgi pulevski but tito left Macedonia in the cold.How can he be classed anything for the cause,Awell meaning mythical figure??He never fired a single shot he mostly hid in bunkers is so true.

[George S.]

Re pulevski.There is a ckear distinction of Bulgarian and Macedonian.No matter what labels people put on him.

[Karposh]

Good on you for that we know georgi pulevski but tito left Macedonia in the cold.How can he be classed anything for the cause,Awell meaning mythical figure??He never fired a single shot he mostly hid in bunkers is so true.

I didn’t think to comment on this at the time George but I want to share a little insight about Tito and Yugoslavia that most Macedonians are aware of and, many Greeks, unfortunately, are not. BTW Bulgarians are well aware of this as well but won’t admit it as it goes against their “Tito invented the Macedonians assertion.”

It is a massive misnomer to believe that Macedonian identity flourished under Yugoslavia and the Communist system. Nothing could be further from the truth. And I can say this from personal experience. I lived in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia between 1978 and 1980 as a young child and I remember very well how our young minds were brainwashed at school to be loyal servants of comrade Tito (“Titovi Pioneri”) and the Fatherland, Yugoslavia. We were being conditioned to be loyal and proud Yugoslavs.

An interesting truth that I can recount now is that all the die-hard Communists were, without fail, fiercely patriotic Yugoslavs. Even as a young seven year old kid I remember the ugliness of the Communist system that turned some of my relatives into Godless Yugoslav zombies. Just like the Yanichari from the old Ottoman days, these were poor, lost Macedonian souls. I remember during family gatherings, when the rakija started to flow freely, the conversations would often, naturally turn to Macedonia, VMRO and Solun. These conversations always made the Yugoslav communists feel uncomfortable and they usually took exception to these topics of discussion.

Macedonia was hardly ever mentioned at school. In fact, the only time Macedonia ever got a mention at all was during those family gatherings when the rakija loosened the lips of the older Macedonian generations. Orthodox feast days and talk of Macedonia seemed to go hand in hand. There was no talk of Yugoslavia or Tito during those hours spent drinking, eating, telling stories and singing patriotic Macedonian songs until well into the night. I loved listening to those stories about Macedonia and the Macedonian past. It was during those gatherings that my sense of Macedonian identity was confirmed. It certainly didn’t come by way of the Yugoslav education system.

An interesting side note to all this is that I always felt closer to my relatives who respected the institution of the Church. They were friendlier, funnier, warmer and generally more fun to be around. The atheist Communists seemed cold, distant and very official. One was a high ranking officer in the Yugoslav Army and a couple were important Communist Party officials. These were the same people that scoffed and laughed at the rest of us during family get-togethers at Christmas, Easter, Name Days and other religious festivals for honouring the Christian faith. To them, these were idiotic and primitive peasant rituals that had no place in a modern society. There was only one faith as far as they were concerned, the Communist Party and their God was, Comrade Marshal Tito. Instead of an icon of Jesus and Mary gracing their homes, they all had a portrait of Tito taking pride and place in their living rooms.

[Philosopher]

I didn’t think to comment on this at the time George but I want to share a little insight about Tito and Yugoslavia that most Macedonians are aware of and, many Greeks, unfortunately, are not. BTW Bulgarians are well aware of this as well but won’t admit it as it goes against their “Tito invented the Macedonians assertion.”

It is a massive misnomer to believe that Macedonian identity flourished under Yugoslavia and the Communist system. Nothing could be further from the truth. And I can say this from personal experience. I lived in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia between 1978 and 1980 as a young child and I remember very well how our young minds were brainwashed at school to be loyal servants of comrade Tito (“Titovi Pioneri”) and the Fatherland, Yugoslavia. We were being conditioned to be loyal and proud Yugoslavs.

An interesting truth that I can recount now is that all the die-hard Communists were, without fail, fiercely patriotic Yugoslavs. Even as a young seven year old kid I remember the ugliness of the Communist system that turned some of my relatives into Godless Yugoslav zombies. Just like the Yanichari from the old Ottoman days, these were poor, lost Macedonian souls. I remember during family gatherings, when the rakija started to flow freely, the conversations would often, naturally turn to Macedonia, VMRO and Solun. These conversations always made the Yugoslav communists feel uncomfortable and they usually took exception to these topics of discussion.

Macedonia was hardly ever mentioned at school. In fact, the only time Macedonia ever got a mention at all was during those family gatherings when the rakija loosened the lips of the older Macedonian generations. Orthodox feast days and talk of Macedonia seemed to go hand in hand. There was no talk of Yugoslavia or Tito during those hours spent drinking, eating, telling stories and singing patriotic Macedonian songs until well into the night. I loved listening to those stories about Macedonia and the Macedonian past. It was during those gatherings that my sense of Macedonian identity was confirmed. It certainly didn’t come by way of the Yugoslav education system.

An interesting side note to all this is that I always felt closer to my relatives who respected the institution of the Church. They were friendlier, funnier, warmer and generally more fun to be around. The atheist Communists seemed cold, distant and very official. One was a high ranking officer in the Yugoslav Army and a couple were important Communist Party officials. These were the same people that scoffed and laughed at the rest of us during family get-togethers at Christmas, Easter, Name Days and other religious festivals for honouring the Christian faith. To them, these were idiotic and primitive peasant rituals that had no place in a modern society. There was only one faith as far as they were concerned, the Communist Party and their God was, Comrade Marshal Tito. Instead of an icon of Jesus and Mary gracing their homes, they all had a portrait of Tito taking pride and place in their living rooms.

Bravo Karposh! Very well put.

It is with sadness to state that some dinosaurs still think like this, and not just among Macedonians.

Brainwashing explains in great depth the problems we face in Macedonia and, more broadly, the world, today.

[Risto the Great]

It is a massive misnomer to believe that Macedonian identity flourished under Yugoslavia and the Communist system. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Totally agree. And I think many would be uncomfortable to admit that their family were on the wrong side of the Yugoslav / Macedonia debate. Patriotic Macedonians were frowned upon and definitely in the minority in the Yugo days.

Honestly, not much difference between them and Grkomani. All Macedonians but different affiliations. The curse of our identity.

[George S.]

I remember that the jugo language was only serbo croat.You were not meant to comment on the tito regime otherwise you would be in the klink or get a beating.Remember that asnom thing anti fascist assembly.1944-1945 declarations of Macedonian state.Did tito create the Macedonian state??Obviously he did but it had to be composed of Macedonians.
Today we are reminded allways that by both serb and croats tell us we are simply Macedonians.

[George S.]

Guys I agree with you with your views,It wasn't the best of times.Remember how we had to learn serbo/croat as Macedonian wasn't recognized.In answer to your questions there are people who think that tito was a mythical beast but at the same time he held the different people together for quite a while.And to those who think tito created a Macedonian people out of nothing you are wrong the people were already there.,There is a mention in newspapers and old books of Macedonians.Even a mention of a dragan going on the ship with Christopher columbus to America.
Guys my comments were to get you to comeout of the woodwork and comment which you have done so well. In regards to tito I happen to ask someone is tito still embalmed ??some think he still is,Also when he was named marshal it conjures the cowboys of America and holler for the marshal.??