Your Opinion - What % is the Greek component of modern Greeks?

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    Your Opinion - What % is the Greek component of modern Greeks?

    This topic seems to arise frequently, but often on urelated threads. Let's see some opinions on where we all stand with regard to the matter of the Greek component in today's Greeks. I am being specific about this which is why I use the term 'native' Greek-speakers. This is not a discussion about identity, so I don't want to see irrelevant counter-arguments which talk about identities during Ottoman times, because in Macedonia, we had certain groups of people identifying as Greeks, Bulgars and Serbs yet the overwhelming majority of them spoke Macedonian as a native tongue. This is what I am looking for.


    My opinion is as follows. I believe that the number of native Greek-speakers was actually significantly increased during the Ottoman Empire due to the cosy relations between the Porte and Patriarchate. At the time of modern Greece's creation, I would say that probably about 20-30% of the population (in the new state) were native Greek-speakers, while the rest were made up by Albanian, Vlach, Turkish, Roma and Slavic-speaking groups. The further south one went, in addition to certain coastal areas, the higher number of Greeks.

    Of course this is just my opinion and I am positive that others will have different views. I am happy to provide supportive evidence for the above, although I am confident that most of it can be found on the forum using the search function at the top of the page.

    I don't believe that the Greeks were completely wiped out as a people during Roman and Ottoman times. But, as a group of people that spoke Greek natively (and not because that was the official tongue of state, education and/or religion), I believe they were in a minority when compared to most others in the Balkans.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
  • George S.
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 10116

    #2
    I think you could be right there SOM.In the Aegean area prior to 1913 the greek population was about 10% of the macedonian (that was more than a million macedonians at least.)
    @0 to 30 % would be reasonable elsewhere.A lot of greeks i have asked say that the greeks being colonisers were scattered everywhere,scicilly,italy,turkey etc etc
    Last edited by George S.; 04-07-2011, 09:51 PM. Reason: ed
    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
    GOTSE DELCEV

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    • Commander Bond
      Junior Member
      • Nov 2008
      • 72

      #3
      My opinion is that the Greek language was only kept somewhat alive by the church and the people that spoke Greek were more well-to-do. These people would have used it as a (studied and learned) second language (in my view) for pretentious purposes to appear as being a better class to differentiate themselves from the average person. I personally believe that as a race, the real Greeks were phased out somewhere during the time in between the Roman and Ottoman Empires. I also have this same view regarding the Cypriots.

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        #4
        I would agree that in many cases it was non-Greeks rather than actual Greeks that perpetuated the use of the Greek language for the reasons outlined above, but to think that there were no families left that spoke Greek as a native tongue is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Voltron
          Banned
          • Jan 2011
          • 1362

          #5
          Originally posted by Commander Bond View Post
          My opinion is that the Greek language was only kept somewhat alive by the church and the people that spoke Greek were more well-to-do. These people would have used it as a (studied and learned) second language (in my view) for pretentious purposes to appear as being a better class to differentiate themselves from the average person. I personally believe that as a race, the real Greeks were phased out somewhere during the time in between the Roman and Ottoman Empires. I also have this same view regarding the Cypriots.
          What do you mean by phased out ? In your opinion, how many other groups of ppl from Antiquity also had the same fate ? Or is this case specific to Greeks ?

          Comment

          • Commander Bond
            Junior Member
            • Nov 2008
            • 72

            #6
            Fair point SOM, and I respect that view.
            But as this is an opinion based discussion, I am prone to believe that the real Greeks were phased out over a long period of time and just did not all of a sudden expire. I liken their situation to be no different from the Etruscans, Trojans, Philistines or Hittites. I just find that the Greek language was fortunate enough (as a type of lingua franca) to be used for ecclesiastical purposes and as a result it is popular belief that Greeks have existed through the ages and therefore this theory became cemented more so when Greece was manufactured by the western powers of the 1830's.

            Comment

            • Voltron
              Banned
              • Jan 2011
              • 1362

              #7
              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
              This topic seems to arise frequently, but often on urelated threads. Let's see some opinions on where we all stand with regard to the matter of the Greek component in today's Greeks. I am being specific about this which is why I use the term 'native' Greek-speakers. This is not a discussion about identity, so I don't want to see irrelevant counter-arguments which talk about identities during Ottoman times, because in Macedonia, we had certain groups of people identifying as Greeks, Bulgars and Serbs yet the overwhelming majority of them spoke Macedonian as a native tongue. This is what I am looking for.


              My opinion is as follows. I believe that the number of native Greek-speakers was actually significantly increased during the Ottoman Empire due to the cosy relations between the Porte and Patriarchate. At the time of modern Greece's creation, I would say that probably about 20-30% of the population (in the new state) were native Greek-speakers, while the rest were made up by Albanian, Vlach, Turkish, Roma and Slavic-speaking groups. The further south one went, in addition to certain coastal areas, the higher number of Greeks.

              Of course this is just my opinion and I am positive that others will have different views. I am happy to provide supportive evidence for the above, although I am confident that most of it can be found on the forum using the search function at the top of the page.

              I don't believe that the Greeks were completely wiped out as a people during Roman and Ottoman times. But, as a group of people that spoke Greek natively (and not because that was the official tongue of state, education and/or religion), I believe they were in a minority when compared to most others in the Balkans.


              Fair enough topic. Just to clarify the subject, are we talking about Mainland Greece ?

              I believe it was more than 30 % but I wont exaggerate numbers either. I use the Chroncles of Monemvasia as a reference to my opinion and Byzantine sources. I will try to post them later on, many of you are probably familiar with them already. But this topic seems fitting.

              My only reservation is regarding Turks and Roma. For Turks, I dont beileve they had any type of impact. With the population exchange we pretty much cleaned house. Thats not to say that intermarriage never happened, just that it wasnt significant. Then the Roma, well they always segregated themselves. Its no wonder why they are a unique case in each balkan country. In Greece, they have taken up Greek names, but everybody knows who is Roma and who isnt. They arent ashamed either, we dont put them down.

              So in order I would say impact that has left us " genetically " would be Slavs, Vlachs, and Albanians to a lesser extent.

              This is of course regarding Mainland Greece and is stictly my opinion.

              Comment

              • Commander Bond
                Junior Member
                • Nov 2008
                • 72

                #8
                Voltron,
                Sorry, didn’t see your post as I was typing my reply.

                I trust my previous post would answer your question re other races or whether it is just specific to Greeks.

                By phased out, I think it could be various logical factors (lets face facts that no one on this forum was there to witness all of this), new tribes entering the landscape (invaders or other), Pagan Greeks not wanting to mix with the Greeks that accepted Christianity, aging populations, unrecorded/undocumented disease, etc. As I hope you can see there are a multitude of reasons. I should have elaborated on what I meant by phased out. Thank you for asking me to clarify.

                What are your views?

                Comment

                • Voltron
                  Banned
                  • Jan 2011
                  • 1362

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Commander Bond View Post
                  Voltron,
                  Sorry, didn’t see your post as I was typing my reply.

                  I trust my previous post would answer your question re other races or whether it is just specific to Greeks.

                  By phased out, I think it could be various logical factors (lets face facts that no one on this forum was there to witness all of this), new tribes entering the landscape (invaders or other), Pagan Greeks not wanting to mix with the Greeks that accepted Christianity, aging populations, unrecorded/undocumented disease, etc. As I hope you can see there are a multitude of reasons. I should have elaborated on what I meant by phased out. Thank you for asking me to clarify.

                  What are your views?
                  My views is that we have to apply the same line of thinking across the board. We cannot say Greeks were phased out while others were not. Espescially when Greeks were heavy colonizers and made their presence known wherever they landed. To build cities you need people to live in them.

                  Comment

                  • Commander Bond
                    Junior Member
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 72

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Voltron
                    Greeks were very talented in colonizing areas and covered much more ground than the groups you mentioned above. Any other groups of ppl that are likened to the ones you mentioned ?
                    True, but that part of ancient Greek history was prior to being ruled under the Macedonians and then Romans. In my opinion, the foreign rule was the beginning of the end for ancient Greece. As I stated in my earlier post - "The Greek language was fortunate enough (as a type of lingua franca) to be used for ecclesiastical purposes".

                    Greeks were not the only ones that colonized areas? The Philistines and Phoenicians also colonized many areas throughout the Mediterranean world but they no longer exist now do they?

                    Comment

                    • Voltron
                      Banned
                      • Jan 2011
                      • 1362

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Commander Bond View Post
                      True, but that part of ancient Greek history was prior to being ruled under the Macedonians and then Romans. In my opinion, the foreign rule was the beginning of the end for ancient Greece. As I stated in my earlier post - "The Greek language was fortunate enough (as a type of lingua franca) to be used for ecclesiastical purposes".

                      Greeks were not the only ones that colonized areas? The Philistines and Phoenicians also colonized many areas throughout the Mediterranean world but they no longer exist now do they?
                      Well, the Philihistines may exist. It is said that they have a Greek background. If that is the case than we are them today.

                      Foreign rule did not mean the holocaust. Espescially during Roman rule.
                      Lingua Franca certainly does help, but so was Latin and today you see so many different languages that have spanned off of it. However for Greek, that didnt happen that way. Since it was the people keeping it alive and not necessarily the Church.

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        #12
                        Are we excluding Greek occupied Macedonia from the discussion?
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Commander Bond
                          Junior Member
                          • Nov 2008
                          • 72

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                          My views is that we have to apply the same line of thinking across the board. We cannot say Greeks were phased out while others were not. Espescially when Greeks were heavy colonizers and made their presence known wherever they landed. To build cities you need people to live in them.
                          Is the Greek language still being spoken in these colonized areas from the ancient era?

                          Good view to apply the same thinking across the board but not a practical one. My view is to look at each race as a case by case study as various factors such as historical events (war, acts of God), occupied areas, etc determine each individual races outcome as far as longevity and continuity is concerned.

                          Comment

                          • Commander Bond
                            Junior Member
                            • Nov 2008
                            • 72

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                            Well, the Philihistines may exist. It is said that they have a Greek background. If that is the case than we are them today.

                            Foreign rule did not mean the holocaust. Espescially during Roman rule.
                            Lingua Franca certainly does help, but so was Latin and today you see so many different languages that have spanned off of it. However for Greek, that didnt happen that way. Since it was the people keeping it alive and not necessarily the Church.
                            Languages spanned off Latin -true, why not Greek? Both were used during this era. Koine was used in the Roman senate as a language of prestige and that did not make the Romans Greek now did it?

                            Background of Philistines is undetermined. The theory of them being Greek is unlikely.

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13670

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                              Are we excluding Greek occupied Macedonia from the discussion?
                              During the 19th century, the number of villages where Greek was spoken as a native language were few. Prior to the 18th century, they were even fewer. I don't see much significance in Macedonia where it concerns native Greek-speakers, but it doesn't have to be excluded.
                              Originally posted by Voltron
                              Fair enough topic. Just to clarify the subject, are we talking about Mainland Greece ?
                              As I said in my response to RtG. Although I was making reference more to 'old' Greece (Peloponnese and some regions further north). There are no boundaries on the topic, so we can look at all former Ottoman regions, that's no problem.
                              I believe it was more than 30 % but I wont exaggerate numbers either.
                              How much do you think it was at the time of independence (in the territory that gained independence), in your honest opinion? Do you agree that whatever figure you give, it would have been less had not the Patriarchate and Porte shared close relations?
                              Lingua Franca certainly does help, but so was Latin and today you see so many different languages that have spanned off of it. However for Greek, that didnt happen that way. Since it was the people keeping it alive and not necessarily the Church.
                              If it was the people keeping it alive you would have a number of languages today that are Greek-based. As it turns out, aside from some isolated cases, spoken Greek was generally Koine-based. So the Church played a significant role in the preservation of Greek, I am not sure how you could argue otherwise.
                              I use the Chroncles of Monemvasia as a reference to my opinion and Byzantine sources. I will try to post them later on, many of you are probably familiar with them already. But this topic seems fitting.
                              That would be good, post up some excerpts, I would like to see what is written, the terms, the context, etc.
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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