Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

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  • indigen
    Senior Member
    • May 2009
    • 1558

    #16
    Originally posted by Rogi View Post
    That the current Church property is owned by individuals, because the MOC from Macedonia is not registered in Australia, but that if this Bill is adopted and enacted, that all changes.



    But somebody has been trying to block this Bill.
    Q1. Which current "Church" property is owned by individuals?

    Q2. Are you now engaging in spreading CHEAP and UNDERHAND lies and misinformation in saying the above?

    Q3. Are you informed (or politically smart) enough to actually deduce that the said bill will do as you think/say it will?


    In a same topic thread on Maknews Forum this has been clearly explained by Aleksandrov (Click here to read explaination).

    NB: The Macedonians in Australia built everything from scratch and there was no "Church" property to inherit!
    Last edited by indigen; 10-16-2009, 10:15 PM.

    Comment

    • Rogi
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 2343

      #17
      Goofball, read my post again and read the Bill (hint: you only need to read the Preamble) and work out which Church property is being discussed as owned by individuals, before you start jumping up and down unnecessarily.
      Last edited by Rogi; 10-14-2009, 06:45 PM.

      Comment

      • indigen
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 1558

        #18
        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
        Do you believe that Petar is guilty of preparing to sellout the MOC and signing church properties over to his personal name? The evidence appears hard to dispute, wouldn't you say?
        Well, it looks like he is trying to set up a property trust in Victoria where he is in total control of everything. I will assume it will be a replica of what he tried to do in NSW - to have ALL Macedonian community church properties transferred over to his control by an act of the NSW parliament. There his attempt failed due to community opposition and possible legal challenges in trying to usurp legally incorporated community entities.

        The old (long) discussion on Maknews Forums about the Macedonian Church dispute in the Diaspora (Australia in particular) is archived at following link/s:



        Page 5 of discussion

        Comment

        • indigen
          Senior Member
          • May 2009
          • 1558

          #19
          Originally posted by Rogi View Post
          Goofball, read my post again and read the Bill (hint: you only need to read the Preamble) and work out which Church property is being discussed as owned by individuals, before you start jumping up and down unnecessarily.
          Name calling insults? It will keep!

          You made a statement on this forum about church property being privately owned and you should be able to answer directly and without childish insults.

          FYI: Petar (Jole) Karevski and his followers have been spreading lies for over a decade about how all the church community properties (the ones not under his jurisdiction) are private companies and owned by directors of same and I assumed that is what you were trying to say.

          Furthermore, Igor Aleksandrov gave a valid reply to exactly same post you made on Maknews (but I did not read it in full to realise that this Bill/Act is a modified version of the NSW one) and I am awaiting your response there.
          Last edited by indigen; 10-16-2009, 10:16 PM.

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #20
            Originally posted by Rogi
            But somebody has been trying to block this Bill.
            Who is trying to block it Rogi?
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15658

              #21
              Interesting text from the propsed Bill:
              (1) The functions of the Trust are--
              (a) to acquire, hold, deal with and dispose of property located within Victoria for the benefit of the Church; and
              And therein lies the rub.
              All this for the benefit of the Church as opposed to the benefit of the Community. And when we say the benefit of the Church, we have to question how individuals such as the Vladika can gain personal benefit in such an instance.

              What precisely is in it for the Communities?

              My perception indicates that people who were looking for a quick way up the Macedonian domestic political food chain have done this by embracing the Vladika instead of trying to gain the respect of long standing Macedonian Communities and their representatives.
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

              Comment

              • Risto the Great
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 15658

                #22
                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                Who is trying to block it Rogi?
                If I was there, it would most likely be me.
                Risto the Great
                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                Comment

                • Prolet
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2009
                  • 5241

                  #23
                  Originally posted by indigen View Post
                  Name calling insults? It will keep!

                  You made a statement on this forum about church property being privately owned and you should be able to answer directly and without childish insults.

                  FYI: Petar (Jole) Karevski and his followers have been spreading lies for over a decade about how all the church community properties (the ones not under his jurisdiction) are private companies and owned by directors of same and I assumed that is what you were trying to say.

                  Furthermore, Igor Aleksandrov gave a valid reply to exactly same post you made on Maknews (but I did not read it in full to realise that this Bill/Act is a modified version of the NSW one) and I awaiting your response there.

                  Indigen, How can you assume this nonsense?? Rogi never accused anybody im sure if you been reading his posts he has never attacked any side he just wants this issue solved like the rest of us.

                  Risto, You're an accountant lets say MPC or MOC officially registers in Australia how would it be possible for every church,monastery or even Church Club be under their umbrella?? You could for example form MPC as a Trust but you would still need the three trustees who would have the right to sign documents or even sell properties should the three agree on it.

                  Whichever way we look at it, Bishop Petar weather the titles are in his name or weather the titles are under MPC and he is the trustee with the two other senior popoj who are his people will pretty much have the same rights as he would if all the titles were put into his name.

                  Bishops and Priests should not interfere with Financial funds they should only warry about preaching and doing Liturgii it is a non profit organization which means people work voluntarily, if they cant agree on a committee who will run the financial side then they should hire people from outside and have accountants who will do the works for them.

                  SOM, Is the Maco Centre in Sunshine still run by the Chajnezi??
                  МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    #24
                    It has been determined that Petar has church properties in his own name.

                    Petar is wrong, this never should have happened, he therefore needs to go, ASAP.

                    Is he on a term that is due for expiry, or is he in the position for life or something?
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Risto the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 15658

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Prolet View Post
                      Whichever way we look at it, Bishop Petar weather the titles are in his name or weather the titles are under MPC and he is the trustee with the two other senior popoj who are his people will pretty much have the same rights as he would if all the titles were put into his name.
                      Sorry Prolet, your approach is naive. Titles in an individual's name versus an incorporated association are very different. If he is holding them personally in his capacity as trustee for some other entity which answers to the MPC, it would be different .... although still inappropriate and far from transparent.

                      Further, if any of these Vl. Petar sympathisers can justify why Petar needs the community halls signed over as well as the churches, I will be happy to hear from them (briefly).

                      I have no idea why the MPC can't manage to get Petar to pull his head in.
                      Risto the Great
                      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        #26
                        It's probably too late for that now RtG, there is only one solution, the MOC needs to manage Petar out of his position and/or demote him, or carry out some other form of discipline to serve as an example for any other opportunists.

                        Do the persons who attend the churches under Petar's control (or ownership) know that he has such properties in his own name? Has the message been pushed through firmly enough on the ground level, among the common people?
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • George S.
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 10116

                          #27
                          Guys do you know how much money this guy has cost the community in sydney,When other communities boast of clubs etc the macedonian church has lost countless millions of dollars perhaps $5 to $6 million dollars in solicicitors & lawyers && court costs etc.The vladika has cost the community so much isn't he appointed for a set period .Clearly from the start his period was doomed as he wasn;t willing to compromise.All i can say it would be better if he was replaced with someone else.He has been accused of trying to line his pockets & he has tried to put his own relatives in the churches.Perhaps a new vladika will change everything.
                          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                          GOTSE DELCEV

                          Comment

                          • Prolet
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2009
                            • 5241

                            #28
                            Gjorgjija, Bishop Petar is a very senior Vladika in MPC he has otvoreni race to do what he wants and not many people dare to question him.

                            SOM, Even if the Bishop is right he has been head of Australia for too long now 13 years is more then enough, however Arch Bishop Stefan will not stand in his way because MOC will be in Chaos, Bishop Petar has a large influence there.

                            The Vladika touched down in Melbourne a few days ago,

                            МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                            Comment

                            • sydney
                              Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 390

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                              Do the persons who attend the churches under Petar's control (or ownership) know that he has such properties in his own name? Has the message been pushed through firmly enough on the ground level, among the common people?
                              my experience with them suggests they don't believe that petar has these under his name. they are very quick to point out that his is the only recognised church and all others will burn in hell. they talk about petar's opposition as being brainwashed people spreading propaganda because they are only interested in money. it does seem that no matter how much one side tries to convince the other that they are right, attitudes just won't change. in general terms, makedonci = prost narod.

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15658

                                #30
                                Originally posted by sydney View Post
                                they are very quick to point out that his is the only recognised church and all others will burn in hell.
                                This is it in a nutshell!


                                Originally posted by sydney View Post
                                makedonci = prost narod.
                                To be fair, Greeks and Serbs in Australia have done the same thing. Perhaps we can simply say Macedonians are no different in this regard to their neighbours. Although in our case, the Australian churches pre-date the MPC. But .... "prosti" is not inappropriate either.
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                                Comment

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