Russia, Conservatism & Orthodoxy

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    #31
    It's an easy question. I'd take Australia over Russia. I'd even take USA over Russia. No doubt whatsoever.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Gocka
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 2306

      #32
      Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
      ...It's not an easy question to answer definitively, there's millions of variables at play that would make one country more preferable than the other.
      It doesn't seem like a difficult question to answer, if you were given the choice would you rather live in Russia or Australia. I'll even make it easier. Instead of giving and all in answer, just give me some of the pro's ad con's of living in Russia and in Australia, in your opinion of course.

      You're still in denial about the role of the USA and her western partners in the orchestrated effort to undermine Russian prosperity since WWII.
      I never remember giving a opinion on the matter, so I can't say I'm in denial of it. In what way has the west made Russia less prosperous? They have natural resources up the wazoo, the government is in complete control of the country and its economy. I don't see what significant external factors impede Russia. There is little to no internal debate or dissidence, so the state is free to shape its economy as it sees fit. They have plenty of land and resources for its own use and for export. The only thing I can see holding Russia back is the fact that it is dangerous, corrupt, and the economy is control by a few oligarchs close to the government.

      It's actually OK to criticise US foreign policy Gocka...you blow so much sunshine up the US system that you could easily be mistaken for a UMD representative...
      lol, I haven't criticized US foreign policy? Dude me and you have been on the same side of many arguments on that very topic, all over this forum. The same UMD that I accused of being bugarofili, and traitors, publicly through our LOMA account? Come on.

      Also why is it US foreign policy? The USA has all but severed ties with the rest of the "west". Europe seems more than content to continue the policies of old without the USA. In fact the rest of Europe is in complete shock that the USA wants to abandon the status quo in terms of international politics. I'll even one up that: Why aren't you upset at Australia for wanting to continue these "western" policies, without the USA. Australia has been complicit in every major international event for the last 100 years. They certainly haven't participated under duress. Why does the USA automatically get 100% of the blame? If anything the rise of Trump has shown us that the west is the west, with or without the USA.

      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
      It's an easy question. I'd take Australia over Russia. I'd even take USA over Russia. No doubt whatsoever.
      Thank you. It is an easy question. No one in their right mind would leave almost any western country to go live in Russia. It's people are poor. The crime is high. The police corrupt. Even people from the Balkans wouldn't got there, its not a step up. It's not a western myth, Russia is a shit country to live in.
      Last edited by Gocka; 07-19-2018, 07:10 PM.

      Comment

      • Phoenix
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2008
        • 4671

        #33
        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        ...Thank you. It is an easy question. No one in their right mind would leave almost any western country to go live in Russia. It's people are poor. The crime is high. The police corrupt. Even people from the Balkans wouldn't got there, its not a step up. It's not a western myth, Russia is a shit country to live in.
        ...I still believe that you're generalising way too much and you are denigrating the Russians in a stereotypical Cold War fashion...I'm sure there are plenty of Russians who are not poor, there would be many parts of Russia where crime is virtually non-existent and where the police are not corrupt...just as there are millions of Americans who live below the poverty line, a multitude of US cities where crime is endemic and daily examples of police corruption.

        Your question of where you would prefer to live is nonsense in most cases because I and most other people have only the one experience in our lives, we have nothing to compare, it's what you have been accustomed to and the experiences and opportunities that have come your way in your lifetime, only that will determine what you consider to be the best place.

        Sure, there are people who have left places like the Balkans and settled in the West and vowed they would never return but there are also many who left places like Macedonia, stayed in Australia for a number of years and decided it wasn't for them and returned 'home'.

        Home is where the heart is Gocka...there's no truer proverb and it's not shaped by Western ideals and systems alone...it's a purely individual choice with no right or wrong answer, with no better or worse outcome...it's simply the place where the individual is happiest in...I'm sure there are millions of content Russians that would be asking why you're consistently shitting on their home.

        My Russian doppelgänger may just be as happy in Russia as I am in Australia, or as happy as you are in the US, or he may even be as happy as our jet-setting friend RtG and he may even have a comparable collection of balalaikas instead of guitars...

        Comment

        • Gocka
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2012
          • 2306

          #34
          Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
          ...I still believe that you're generalising way too much and you are denigrating the Russians in a stereotypical Cold War fashion...I'm sure there are plenty of Russians who are not poor, there would be many parts of Russia where crime is virtually non-existent and where the police are not corrupt...just as there are millions of Americans who live below the poverty line, a multitude of US cities where crime is endemic and daily examples of police corruption.
          Yes I am generalizing, I'll concede that, but I have to counter that with this. You could say that about any country on earth. Even the poorest and most hopeless places in the world have citizens who are well off, who live in safe neighborhoods, etc. There are millions of Americans who live in "poverty", but to be honest I don't think it can be compared to what we traditionally consider poverty. By that standard the entire Balkans live in poverty, because the average American in poverty is still much better off than most working class Macedonians. I'm generalizing because the topic is such that we could never even discuss it if not in general terms. I still think my assertions are generally true about Russia. If they weren't why don't people try to immigrate to Russia like they do to other countries?

          I guess I have to say this. My issue is not with the Russian people, I am not some boob American who thinks they are all evil. I simply made the point that Russia is an authoritarian state, it has been pretty much for ever. That life there is difficult for many. That disobedience is not tolerated, and that the elections are not real. Why can't we just look at those facts in a vacuum. Those assertions don't require a tit for tat type of comparison to any other country. From everything we know about Russia, I don't see how it can be argued that Russia is not an authoritarian state. I also think had I not been an American, these opinions might be looked at a little differently, and not automatically dismissed.

          Now the is my opinion but here it goes. I believe that a country, any country where opposition to leadership is simply not allowed, is an authoritarian state. It doesn't matter if the size of the opposition is small. Even if only 10% or any arbitrary percent of the citizenry is in opposition to the leadership, and if that opposition is met with hostility, and even death in some cases. Then that state is still Authoritarian. Before you automatically dismiss that idea, let me remind you that a similar situation could be possible in soon to be NRM.

          Just because a portion of Russian society is okay with an authoritarian leader, it doesn't mean he isn't. Even if a majority of Russians are okay with Putin jailing and murdering his opposition, he would still be an Authoritarian leader. Same would apply to any country.

          Your question of where you would prefer to live is nonsense in most cases because I and most other people have only the one experience in our lives, we have nothing to compare, it's what you have been accustomed to and the experiences and opportunities that have come your way in your lifetime, only that will determine what you consider to be the best place.

          Sure, there are people who have left places like the Balkans and settled in the West and vowed they would never return but there are also many who left places like Macedonia, stayed in Australia for a number of years and decided it wasn't for them and returned 'home'.

          Home is where the heart is Gocka...there's no truer proverb and it's not shaped by Western ideals and systems alone...it's a purely individual choice with no right or wrong answer, with no better or worse outcome...it's simply the place where the individual is happiest in...I'm sure there are millions of content Russians that would be asking why you're consistently shitting on their home.
          I agree with this totally. Home can be a lot of places and can not be boiled down to gdp or other random factoids. What I was really getting at is whether you would prefer the socio-economic system employed in Russia, to be implemented in Australia in exchange for the western system it currently has?

          We shit on our own home constantly, with vigor. Why should I feel bad about shitting on Russia? I don't feel like I have some obligation to be nice to Russia. This all started because I said I essentially feel bad for the Russian people, because I consider them to be pretty intelligent and capable, and believe they could be much more prosperous as a nation and a people if they were not ruled by an Authoritarian regime. Then that somehow transformed into what appears to be denials that Russia is an Authoritarian state at all, but no one has really given an example or reason of why they believe Russia isn't authoritarian.

          My Russian doppelgänger may just be as happy in Russia as I am in Australia, or as happy as you are in the US, or he may even be as happy as our jet-setting friend RtG and he may even have a comparable collection of balalaikas instead of guitars...
          Our many brethren in various parts of Macedonia, both occupied and otherwise, may also be happy with the way things are where they live, but we seem to take extreme issue with that. Why don't we apply the same standards to other places and peoples.

          Anyway, I agree that RTG would be one hell of a character no matter where he ended up.

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            #35
            Russians all use dash cams on their cars because of the prevalence of idiots looking to make dodgy insurance claims at the expense of personal injury. Nobody helps anyone injured outside in China because they will end up paying for the injured person's rehabilitation for life. Chinese are known to kill their daughters once they have one too many. Pigs are happy to live in shit.

            We are indeed judging people where is best to live based upon our own preferences and experiences. Gocka did ask where WE ( or YOU) would prefer to live. He didn't ask where Russians would prefer to live, although that would be a more interesting question. Of course it is here ..... though not in some parts of Victoria.
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15658

              #36
              Originally posted by Gocka View Post
              Anyway, I agree that RTG would be one hell of a character no matter where he ended up.
              If I lived in Macedonia, I would be either a priest or a politician. In both cases I would do nothing other than talk for my money and food.

              In Thailand, I would either be a Thai boxer or a very poor ladyboy.

              In Russia, an alcoholic (= politician).

              We need to be flexible!
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

              Comment

              • Om3n
                Junior Member
                • Feb 2009
                • 46

                #37
                Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                The Orthodox faith is steeped in dogma, much of which is in direct opposition to the bible. Most of our church customs are pagan, we worship saints and icons, a big no no in the bible.
                The Bible is a written record of God's revelation to man and icons are a pictorial record of the same. The iconographic tradition is as old as the Bible itself and a good indication of this is the ancient house church and synagogue at Dura Europos, Syria which are plastered with art depicting scenes from the Scriptures. Both traditions, along with the oral tradition, reveal theological truths and no one is above the others. You seem to have a Protestant-influenced outlook on this.

                Comment

                • Gocka
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2012
                  • 2306

                  #38
                  I'm honestly not very religious, I view our faith as part of my Macedonian identity and culture, more so than a connection with god.

                  The history of the church and religion in general is interesting, but that's about it for me.

                  It's not just the depiction through icons, it is our worship of them that in my reading of the bible, I find contrary. We says prayers to saints, se krstime vo niv, I'm not expert, but I'm pretty sure that is prohibited.

                  The dogma is part of an religion really but after reading enough history about the official churches, its not that hard to come to the realization that the official church is anything but a connection to god.

                  My quip was about how the Russian Church is somehow leading the way back to godliness. I just don't believe any official Christian church is genuinely capable of accomplishing that.

                  Originally posted by Om3n View Post
                  The Bible is a written record of God's revelation to man and icons are a pictorial record of the same. The iconographic tradition is as old as the Bible itself and a good indication of this is the ancient house church and synagogue at Dura Europos, Syria which are plastered with art depicting scenes from the Scriptures. Both traditions, along with the oral tradition, reveal theological truths and no one is above the others. You seem to have a Protestant-influenced outlook on this.

                  Comment

                  • Gocka
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2012
                    • 2306

                    #39
                    And somehow in Australia you end up merely and accountant! lol


                    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                    If I lived in Macedonia, I would be either a priest or a politician. In both cases I would do nothing other than talk for my money and food.

                    In Thailand, I would either be a Thai boxer or a very poor ladyboy.

                    In Russia, an alcoholic (= politician).

                    We need to be flexible!

                    Comment

                    • Om3n
                      Junior Member
                      • Feb 2009
                      • 46

                      #40
                      I can understand why you feel that way about Orthodoxy and I'm sure most Macedonians share the same sentiments, namely, that it is a cultural phenomenon rather than a spiritual reality. It is something people do rather than live to the end that they become regenerated. It is in this sense that I don't think that reverencing icons and such can even be called that, since it has mostly become routine. After all there is a correct way and incorrect way to worship: for instance lighting candles does not magically bring one luck, and a certain Canon of the Church says that anyone who doesn't stay for the entire service is to be excommunicated. Everything serves a purpose in revealing the fullness of the Gospel; how to approach God and our fellow human beings, as well as for our divinisation. All of this is cheapened by the faithlessness of the Church which is unfortunate because Orthodoxy has the authentic Apostolic teaching.

                      Comment

                      • FoxTale
                        Junior Member
                        • Jun 2018
                        • 10

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                        If I lived in Macedonia, I would be either a priest or a politician. In both cases I would do nothing other than talk for my money and food.

                        In Thailand, I would either be a Thai boxer or a very poor ladyboy.

                        In Russia, an alcoholic (= politician).

                        We need to be flexible!
                        You would make a good politician though, Risto!

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15658

                          #42
                          Originally posted by FoxTale View Post
                          You would make a good politician though, Risto!
                          Thank you FoxTale. I do nothing exquisitely well, so I am eminently qualified to be a politician!
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Carlin
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3332

                            #43
                            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                            It's not separate. Our church has been advocating for recognition for 50 years. The ROC has continually refused to proceed down a principled path on the matter.
                            Speaking as an atheist (..if you will), it's pretty laughable yet sad how the Orthodox church (as a whole) has refused to recognize the MOC. The arguments and reasons seem to be arcane, and we have some major league bullshit and double standards going on, to quote the REAL G. Carlin. If Macedonians would like their own indepedent church there is no good reason or argument that could or should prevent that - other than bullshit arguments and nationalist mythologies (religious/Orthodox Macedonians are simply doing the same thing everyone before them has done in the Orthodox world; an independent state followed by its own independent church). The eparchies of (current) Rep. of Macedonia were bought/purchased by the Serbian church with significant sums of monies. I wonder which 'holy canons' were followed during this 'transaction'.

                            George Carlin --- Religion is Bullshit
                            Buy George Carlin's autobiography on Sale from Amazon July 2019!https://amzn.to/2MiIq8kSupport me for more videos (account not needed)https://www.patreon.com...
                            Last edited by Carlin; 07-20-2018, 05:40 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                              And somehow in Australia you end up merely and accountant! lol
                              I agree.
                              But I have culture too!
                              Like this ...
                              There was this one channel, kickboxing, 24 hours a day
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • Phoenix
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2008
                                • 4671

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                                If I lived in Macedonia, I would be either a priest or a politician. In both cases I would do nothing other than talk for my money and food.

                                In Thailand, I would either be a Thai boxer or a very poor ladyboy.

                                In Russia, an alcoholic (= politician).

                                We need to be flexible!
                                A priest, politician, ladyboy and accountant...hmmm...I guess the common thread is fleecing the flock...

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X