Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Pelagonija]

If a far left fascist traitorous dictator does not incite the people then nothing can motivate the soulles people if NMK.

[Niko777]

Pavle Voskopoulos publicly posted this on his facebook profile:

Драги Македонци во Македонската држава...
Можете да размислете...
1. Пред скоро 30 години и кризата и понатамо со години, Југославија се растури... како и познатиот "Источен блок". Нова Европа, нов Балкан.
Поранешните Југословенски Републики станале независни држави.

2. Од сите Републики и Балканските држави, една од поранешните Републики тргна против Западот и про-Руски отворено. Ово е Србија. Друга држава пак со децении изолирана (Албанија), тргна отворено про-Западно.

3. Резултатот? Најреална ситуација пред неколку години и денес. На Балканот втора Албанска држава Косово. Чудо невидено! Очигледно Српската определба-политика погрешна.

4. Независна Македонска држава што треба да крејра за иднината на Македонштината? Да имплементира Српските или Албанските определби?

ПС Македонците свесни во северна Грција знајме. Без разлика на слабостите при Западните демократији чекориме силно про-Западно, про-Европски. Дури и тамо со малите сили настојуваме слабостите при Западните политики да се поправат. Ово принципијелно правиме со нашите сојузници во Европската Слободна Алијанса-Зелени.

Се надеваме ќе дојде време Македонските Европратеници ќе седат рамноправно со Грците и Бугарските колеги во Европскиот Парламент.

Ние Македонците од северна Грција ќе аплаудираме...

[Risto the Great]

Are we to now assume Pavle is for the Prespa Accord? Which then means he cannot pursue the rights of Macedonians in Greece thereafter?

[maco2envy]

Sounds like he has sold out

[Risto the Great]

Sounds like he has sold out

"Ние Македонците од северна Грција ќе аплаудираме..."
He is using the term Македонците in an ethnic sense and seems to have failed to understand that he wouldn't even be able to talk to the "Macedonians" across the border for fear of Greek backlash.

[VMRO]

From what i see Pavle and Eugenia (Even though they hate eachother) are beating the same tune. Both are supporting Zaev's treason with applause like it some sort of victory.

Sadly even the ex activist Jim Thomev from the old days seems to have become delusional and doesn't believe Zaev's government that bad even to the point of saying Zaev's alternative has more benefit.

[Tomche Makedonche]

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonia-leader-resume-talks-on-name-referendum-07-19-2018

Macedonia Leaders Resume Talks on 'Name' Referendum

Macedonia’s political leaders were set to resume talks on Thursday on clearing the path towards a referendum in autumn on the historic 'name' deal with Greece.

After marathon discussions between the heads of all of Macedonia's parliamentary parties on Wednesday ended without agreement, talks were due to resume in Skopje on Thursday between the leaders of the four largest parties alone.

Zoran Zaev, the Prime Minister and head of the ruling Social Democratic Union, SDSM, said he had accepted the request of the head of the main opposition VMRO DPMNE party, Hristijan Mickovski, for a narrower meeting to try to resolve differences.

Mickovski's party has for weeks blocked the preparations for an autumn referendum on the country's historic deal with Greece, and has called the deal a national capitulation; the party left Wednesday’s talks early on.

Mickovski has insisted on the prior adoption of a new law on the financing of political parties, and on a provision guaranteeing the formation of a wide coalition government before the next parliamentary elections, before agreeing to participate in the referendum.

“Mickovski’s conduct … is unserious, irresponsible and offensive towards all the other political subjects and to Macedonian citizens,” Zaev complained to reporters after the talks broke down on Wednesday night.

He said the other political leaders had discussed key aspects of the plebiscite, mulling a referendum question along the lines of: “Do you support EU and NATO membership by accepting the 'name' agreement between Macedonia and Greece?”

A principal aim of the landmark agreement with Greece, signed on June 17, was to ensure that Greece ended its longstanding blockade of Macedonia’s membership of NATO and the EU.

Under the deal, Macedonia agreed to change its name to Republic of North Macedonia, while Greece agreed to lift its veto on Macedonia's EU and NATO integration.

For the deal to be fully implemented, however, Macedonians must show they support it in a referendum that the Social Democrat-led government wants held in late September or early October, so that there is time to adopt the required constitutional changes by year-end.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Mickovski has insisted on the prior adoption of a new law on the financing of political parties, and on a provision guaranteeing the formation of a wide coalition government before the next parliamentary elections, before agreeing to participate in the referendum.

Exactly what tangent are DPNE on with this?, what has this got to do with the referendum and changing Macedonia's name?, how and why are these items the priority for DPNE? (as opposed to challenging the legal constitutional basis of the agreement and its terms, etc)

[vicsinad]

Exactly what tangent are DPNE on with this?, what has this got to do with the referendum and changing Macedonia's name?, how and why are these items the priority for DPNE? (as opposed to challenging the legal constitutional basis of the agreement and its terms, etc)

Good questions. DPNE has a chance to stand up for the Macedonian people/nation/identity, and it's still "party first" for them.

[maco2envy]

75% of Macedonians are against the name change

https://www.mkd.mk/makedonija/politika/makedoncite-se-protiv-chlenstvo-vo-eu-i-nato-so-promeneto-ime-a-albancite-se-za

Анкетираните Албанци (25% од 1.200 испитаници) сметаат дека договорот со Грција е добар - 94,7 %. Од нив 5,3 отсто одговорија дека не го поддржуваат договорот со Грција за промена на името, а кај Maкедонците тој процент е 74,5. 25,5 отсто од анкетираните Македонци сметаат дека договорот со Грција е добар. Освен кај Ромите и Србите, кај сите други националности (Турци, Власи, Македонци муслимани, Босанци) мнозинството е за договорот.

Таков е односот во однос на сите прашања на телефонската анкетата спроведена од агенцијата Маркет висион од 9 до 15 јули.

[Gocka]

So for those that can't read Macedonian. A survey of 1200 Macedonian citizens was conducted with the question of whether you support or do not support the agreement with Greece. Of the 1200 people 25% were Albanian, I'm not sure why that bit of information was singled out, other than to maybe show what the impact of the Albanian vote will be overall. Moving on.

1200 surveyed
25% were Albanians

94.7% of Albanians answer that they support the agreement
5.3% of Albanians said they do not support the agreemnt

74.5% of Macedonians answered they do not support the agreemnt
25.5% of Macedonians answered that they do support the agreement

Other ethnic group in Macedonia in including Turks, Vlachs, Macedonian Muslims, and Bosnians, had a majority of respondents support the agreement. specific numbers not disclosed.

Serbs and Roma, apparently are the only other ethnic groups that had a majority that was against the agreement. Again no numbers disclosed.

75% of Macedonians are against the name change

https://www.mkd.mk/makedonija/politi...lbancite-se-za

[Gocka]

A few things don't make sense to me, which make me question the veracity or the professionalism of the survey.

First thing that sticks out is the Vlachs. I always found Vlachs to be quite patriotic and pro Macedonian. I find it hard to believe the majority are in support. I don't know the ins and outs of the Vlach community but this was just my general experience with them.

The same thing can be said about the Turks, except that with the Turks I do have a much more intimate experience with them. Ohrid has a lot of Turks. They all speak flawless Macedonian, and have always been pro Macedonian. On top of that, they despise Greeks, so I find it hard to believe that a majority would accept the agreement, just on there hatred of Greeks. Now the only way I could justify it is that most Turks own businesses, maybe they are thinking financially here, but still doesn't sit right with me.

The Serbs don't surprise me. The Serbs in Macedonia are mostly Macedonian in spirit anyway, I even question sometimes whether they are Serb at all.

The Roma also don't surprise me. for some odd reason, despite being treated with utter disregard, are quite patriotic. Macedonians really should treat them better.

The Torbeshi, ugh, the fucking Torbeshi. ......... nothing more to say here just fucking Torbeshi. The fact that they are even considered their own ethnic group separate of Macedonians, tells you all you need to know about them.

Bosnians? What all 10 of them, who cares. I don't think I ever met a Bosnian ever in Macedonia.

Finally that leaves me with Macedonians. its not 75%. There is a majority there, but i'd say its very narrow. The same phenomenon is happening there like it was in the US election in 2016. People are embarrassed to say how they really feel, so they say one thing in public, another in private. I know a lot of people don't want the name to be changed, but they also don't want to miss out on the EU either. Its impossible to pin down a number. A lot of Macedonians won't vote for one. Two I think a lot of people who might vote NO are also conflicted and can not be counted on to be a definite NO. While people who are for YES, are staunchly and unapologetically a YES.

This whole thing will come down to turnout. Albanians are going to be out like ants, much higher turnout than Macedonians, and given they are 95% yes votes they will have a big impact. They will make up a solid 25% of the vote (given their higher turnout) so already they are 25% there with only Albanians. If the other ethnic groups are 10% of the vote and split 50/50, there is another 5% for yes. So even if Macedonians make up the other 65% of the vote and vote about 30% Yes, (the turnout for yes voters will be higher than no voters), that brings the total to about 50%, so it will be a nail bitter.

So if turnout among Yes voters is significantly higher, than Yes will take it.

That's all if you assume only 25% of Macedonians are for Yes, if 30% are for yes, and their turnout is better, then they win hands down.

Also this is all assuming absolutely no cheating or manipulation.

Taking everything into account, Unless the turnout is absolutely massive on the NO vote, this is a forgone conclusion.

I'm expecting the yes vote to win comfortably, thanks to Albanians, and about a third of Macedonians.

So for those that can't read Macedonian. A survey of 1200 Macedonian citizens was conducted with the question of whether you support or do not support the agreement with Greece. Of the 1200 people 25% were Albanian, I'm not sure why that bit of information was singled out, other than to maybe show what the impact of the Albanian vote will be overall. Moving on.

1200 surveyed
25% were Albanians

94.7% of Albanians answer that they support the agreement
5.3% of Albanians said they do not support the agreemnt

74.5% of Macedonians answered they do not support the agreemnt
25.5% of Macedonians answered that they do support the agreement

Other ethnic group in Macedonia in including Turks, Vlachs, Macedonian Muslims, and Bosnians, had a majority of respondents support the agreement. specific numbers not disclosed.

Serbs and Roma, apparently are the only other ethnic groups that had a majority that was against the agreement. Again no numbers disclosed.

[Pelagonija]

Looking at those figures my gut feeling tells me that the result will go the way of the yes camp 51 v 49 with %51 turn out..

And of course Albanians who haven’t lived in fyrom for 30 years or were born in Kosovo will have a their say say too.

[Rogi]

That's not the only survey conducted.

There are others, such as the one Milososki just referenced, conducted in July, which shows 69% of the overall population intend to boycott the referendum, while 31% would vote Yes. He goes further to share the numbers in the Bitola municipality as being 78% boycott and 22% in favour.

http://expres.mk/zoshto-vladata-ja-krie-anketata-sprovedena-vo-juli/

[Rogi]

Exactly what tangent are DPNE on with this?, what has this got to do with the referendum and changing Macedonia's name?, how and why are these items the priority for DPNE? (as opposed to challenging the legal constitutional basis of the agreement and its terms, etc)

If Zaev continues to see survey results that show an insufficient turnout for the referendum, he'll likely merge the referendum with parliamentary elections.

In that case, VMRO-DPMNE would be in a check-mate position in that if they come out with the "boycott" position, they will lose the election and Zaev and co will have over 81 MP seats, giving him a two-thirds majority and free reign to do what he wants. While If DPMNE dont hold the boycott position, then there will likely be enough turnout in the referendum to make it valid and the result could go either way given 30% of the population is not Macedonian.

It's manipulation at every step now in Macedonia.