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Old 08-09-2011, 03:55 PM   #1
Delodephius
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Default South Slavic tribes

I made a list of "Slavic" tribes that existed in the Balkans in the period from the 6th until 9th century AD. Some existed afterwards, some before, some also had namesakes in other parts of Europe. I am not sure if the list is complete.

Slavic tribes. For these tribes we can say with some certainty were Slavic speaking since they have names that can be explained through the Slavic languages. The tribes in red have namesakes, other Slavic tribes in other parts of Europe that have the same name. This could indicate common ancestry of those tribes.
Severians, Ezerites, Moravians, Druguvites (Δρουγουβῖται), Vaiounetes (Βαϊουνηται), Braniches (Braničevci), Smolyani, Obodrites, Milingoi (Μηλιγγοί)

Iranian tribes. These tribes were most likely Iranian speaking or can be linked to the Iranian speaking Scythians, Sarmatians, Iazyges, Alans, etc.
Croatians, Serbs, Sagudates (Σαγουδάται)

Germanic tribes.
Guduscani (modern day Gočani in Lika and Dalmatia). Goths, probably from Gothiscandza from where their name might also be derived.

Turkic tribes. Tribes most likely of Avar or Bulgar origin that came with the Slavic speaking tribes. Common Slavic being the Lingua Franca of the Avar Khaganate they too most likely spoke it.
Velegezites (Βελεγεζίται), Berzites (Βερζηται)

Balkan tribes. These were Slavic speaking tribes, but their name is of local Balkan origin (Palaeo-Balkan, Latin, Greek) indicating that they might also have been founded by natives who adopted Slavic as the common language or Lingua Franca.
Travunians, Konavlians, Diokletians, Zachlumians, Nerentines (Paganians), Timochans, Strymonoi, Rynchines, Carantianians

The tribes in blue were the ones which sieged Solun in the 5th century.
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Old 08-09-2011, 06:28 PM   #2
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Just with the Berzites (Βερζηται) - weren't they Slavic-speaking also?
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Old 08-10-2011, 03:23 AM   #3
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Well actually all of the tribes in blue are suppose to be Slavic speaking. Berzites are today's Brsjaci, right? Their origin, or maybe just the leading part of the tribe, was Turkic. Berz is apparently a Greek rendition of Barč a Khazaro-Bulgarian tribe. That is at least what O. Pritsak had to say. According to him Druguvites and Vaiounetes are also Turkic tribes, but their names seem much too Slavic to me, the first coming from the word 'drugovi' which means 'comrades', 'friends', and the second from 'voin(ik)' meaning 'soldier(s)'.
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Old 08-10-2011, 06:28 PM   #4
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One could probably argue a Slavic origin for the word Berz also:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=4965

PIE bheres - 'quick, festinate'; THR bruzas - ‘quick’; LTH bruz'as - ‘somebody who runs to and fro’; Old Maced. b'rzo; Mod. Maced. brz, brzo - 'quick'
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Old 08-10-2011, 07:25 PM   #5
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This is kinda pointless because you cannot easily differentiate and categorize any medieval Eurasian tribe. You cannot claim that Berzites was only Slavic or Croatians and Scythians, Sarmatians was only Iranians. Most likely, all these tribes are mix of these people, all of them.

For example, there was a language called Crimean Goth. It became extinct in 18th century but according to the records of that era, there was bilingual people around northern Blacksea who spoke Turkic and Gothic German or Slavic and Gothic. These people was the leftovers of early medieval Goths who mingled with others.

Now, how come you can claim that Berzites was only Turkic or only Slavic? Would it be correct to categorize them with strict differences? Even in 10th century, eastern Roman emperor Constantine was writing that Avars was Huns/Turks in one sentence and Avars as Slavs in another sentence in his own text, Administrando Imperio;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...t=1610&page=10

Another example is eastern Roman emperor Leo`s book called Tactica written in early 10th century. He says that the people in Pannonia are Turks and Panonia is Tourkia. As you know, Hungarian kings has been crowned as the King of Tourkia for about 200 years. He also talks about another tribes as Pechenegs and Uzes (Oghuzs) in that book. After 11th century, the people in Pannonia became Hungarians and Uzes (Oghuzs) came to Anatolia en masse and they became Turks and Anatolia became Tourkia.


These differences started to become clear only after 11th century but if you are talking about 5th to 10th century, everything is shallow.

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Old 08-10-2011, 09:01 PM   #6
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This is kinda pointless because you cannot easily differentiate and categorize any medieval Eurasian tribe.
We have an interest, so we can try and base our assessment on the information we have, both linguistic and historical.
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You cannot claim that Berzites was only Slavic or Croatians and Scythians, Sarmatians was only Iranians. Most likely, all these tribes are mix of these people, all of them.
I don't believe anybody said they were "only" one or the other. But doubting that one or the other was largely Slavic-speaking, for example, is being ignorant. Thus, if you have no interest in the topic I find your intervention on this thread rather pointless. If you have something constructive to contribute in terms of determining the origin of these tribes, then by all means share it.
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:34 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
One could probably argue a Slavic origin for the word Berz also:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=4965

PIE bheres - 'quick, festinate'; THR bruzas - ‘quick’; LTH bruz'as - ‘somebody who runs to and fro’; Old Maced. b'rzo; Mod. Maced. brz, brzo - 'quick'
Could be that too, but the name of a tribe being "The Fast Ones" sounds a bit unconvincing. Unless they were primarily composed of lightly armoured and fast warriors.
The misconception most people have of early Slavic peoples is that their warriors had little to no armour and carried only light weapons. This stems from the descriptions of Slavs in Roman sources, but only of the Slavs living on the Danube border that occasionally raided the Roman territory. The Slavs that sieged Solun were very well equipped, with thick armour and heavy weapons: swords, axes, pikes, they even had siege weapons. Some scholars have made note that these Slavs were not the same as the Slavs who raided Roman territory before, but were much better organized armies of warrior tribes making a living out of war and conquest, not local pheasants who did a skirmish or two a year to supplement their farming and hunting. It was these conquering Slavs that established the Sklaviniae in the Balkans.
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:59 PM   #8
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Could be that too, but the name of a tribe being "The Fast Ones" sounds a bit unconvincing. Unless they were primarily composed of lightly armoured and fast warriors.
Fair enough, although it wouldn't be too unusual to name a group after an attribute such as 'quickness'. It is often used for sporting teams today, for example. Another reason why I made the suggestion is that the devoiced z -> s, which can come into play for a proposed development of b(e)rzi -> brsjak. A parallel in Macedonian could be the verb vrzi (to tie), which becomes vrska (a tie).

How about a connection to 'breg' or 'breza'? See Thracian equivalents below:

- berga ‘hill, bank’; breg in most Slavic languages.
- berza ‘birch’; breza in most Slavic languages.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:08 AM   #9
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"no proof has been found yet to suggest a continuous settlement until the 8th century Frigisinga".. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freising

Freising Manuscript
Slovene Brižinski spomeniki (I know this translation is made in 19 century but it seems logic)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freising_manuscripts

Some variances of the name of: Phrygians - Brigiens - Brigi-Brizi??
At the end we have Brizijaci-Brzjaci-Brsjaci/Berziti....

Greater part of Brigians have relocated in Antolia. Maybe that's the turkish connection
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:26 PM   #10
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Greater part of Brigians have relocated in Antolia. Maybe that's the turkish connection
I have often questioned what makes everyone assume all influences came from the Ottomans and wonder what may well have gone the other direction even before the Ottoman invasions.
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