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Old 02-12-2019, 12:13 PM   #11
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I like the 5 points you proposed. However, how can they and other similar ideas be implemented/enforced?

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I don't agree that it is the responsibility of the Republic of Macedonia to protect/assist Greek citizens. I think Greece is responsible (and fully accountable) for that.
So for #1-4 its really about the citizens themselves to respect each other, and the municipal police I believe as well as the nazi golden dawn to fuck off. These are all issues the government denies I'm sure that take place on a municipal/grass roots level of society between citizens. As well the greek Orthodox Church plays apart in it. because all of this takes place at the lowest level of society I don't think theres away to fix this, I don't think the government stepping in does any good it would just anger and create more problems while fuelling hate for Macedonians. Only way this would be fixed would be if the greek state didn't systematically oppress the Macedonians, and for greeks to understand there not a homogenous state and maybe that is a start.

for #5 you would need immense pressure internally (from who???) and externally (probably eu, nato, Red Cross, un, etc)

I don't think its there responsibility either but I believe they should at least play apart in it; like use there place in the international community to lobby international organizations to pressure greece. But they've done nothing and have turned their back on there own people. Even though there greek citizens, there treated like second class ones because of who they are. I think its hard for the greek state to actually help them because it causes there image of a homogeneous state to come crashing down along with the many things they've done to the Macedonians to come to light for people to realize the greek states true colours. We all know the greek state would rater keep pressing us then actually help for the sake of there false image to not be tarnished
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:29 PM   #12
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Are you sure you're a Greek Yuri? Excuse my French but this feels like a complete mind fuck listening to you, a Greek, sticking up for Macedonians the way you have done. I know you're the exception and not the norm but, just out of curiosity, are there others like you or would you acknowledge that you're pretty much a lone Greek voice of reason in the stubborn wilderness that is Greek fascism. Either way, thank you for the support if you're intentions are genuine here and not simply trolling.
I'm taking your comment on maybe not being a Greek as a compliment! Haha, thank you!

I do agree with you that I am more or less a vast minority regarding the Macedonian issue. The discussion with other Greeks (if it ever starts) is usually over with an angry "don't call them that" comment.

Apart from posting on a forum, which has some effect but not extended, I am trying a bit in my day to day life. I am currently convincing my employer to drop the ethnicity question for new people. It has options that include African, Middle Eastern and South Slav but also Greek, Italian, Spanish etc. I hope you can see the problem here.. One of the arguments I used was that Macedonians for example find it offensive being called South Slavs, not to mention that South Slav, African or Middle Eastern are not even ethnicities in the first place! They are a language family, a contental adjective and a regional adjective. And please notice that this is Not 8n Greece! The same problems in their core transcend the world..
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:57 PM   #13
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@YuriB just wondering after reading our responses how would you improve the life of the Aegean Macedonians? And do you really think its possible, because I don't?

Also you probably answered this before but what part of of greece are you from, and why did you leave to new zealand?
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Old 02-13-2019, 01:38 AM   #14
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Apart from posting on a forum, which has some effect but not extended, I am trying a bit in my day to day life. I am currently convincing my employer to drop the ethnicity question for new people. It has options that include African, Middle Eastern and South Slav but also Greek, Italian, Spanish etc. I hope you can see the problem here.. One of the arguments I used was that Macedonians for example find it offensive being called South Slavs, not to mention that South Slav, African or Middle Eastern are not even ethnicities in the first place! They are a language family, a contental adjective and a regional adjective. And please notice that this is Not 8n Greece! The same problems in their core transcend the world..
I didnít realise NZ was so backwards. Perhaps you can convince your employer to simply add another picklist value called Macedonian into the database? A much easier path.
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Old 02-13-2019, 02:12 AM   #15
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@Nushevski777 Post 11 is indeed a great analysis of the problem. I think you are nailing the intertwined nature of the Greek state, Golden Dawn and Greek Church in attacking minorities from all angles.

In terms of how to improve the lives of Macedonians (and other minorities) we must make the general Greek population empathize with them. I don't believe Greeks are inherently bad; their paranoid and delusional when it comes to this topic though..

I was living in Athens. I left Greece because I never really felt aligned with and a part of the population. I was also seeing little prospect in terms of job opportunities. I chose NZ because of a good job offer but primarily because, along with Canada, it had the best reputation (I believe) in treating immigrants and other cultures nicely among the English-speaking countries.

@Sydney Yes, we need to work on some issues here too. They are mostly the result of inertia not mall intent though.

I believe there is no need to ask ethnicity at all actually. There are way more ethnicities than there countries and languages. I think it's a personal matter much like religion. Alternatively, we could provide an open textbox for people to write up whatever they want but still, I don't see why any institution should know this..
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:26 AM   #16
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@Nushevski777 Post 11 is indeed a great analysis of the problem. I think you are nailing the intertwined nature of the Greek state, Golden Dawn and Greek Church in attacking minorities from all angles.

In terms of how to improve the lives of Macedonians (and other minorities) we must make the general Greek population empathize with them. I don't believe Greeks are inherently bad; their paranoid and delusional when it comes to this topic though..

I was living in Athens. I left Greece because I never really felt aligned with and a part of the population. I was also seeing little prospect in terms of job opportunities. I chose NZ because of a good job offer but primarily because, along with Canada, it had the best reputation (I believe) in treating immigrants and other cultures nicely among the English-speaking countries.
Thanks, I actually just had a conversation with my grandfather about life of the Aegean Macedonians in present day; from talking with him the Macedonians over time it seems like they've been gradually been treated better. He believes right now the Aegean Macedonians are very close to being treated as equal citizens with greeks but still not on par with them. He says the reason for this is the greek state is afraid that something might get out of hand and they are treating them better for this reason, he told me that there is a very small movement for independence and the greek state is worried that this would cause a ripple effect of other stuff. Now he also told me that theres a large amount of young Macedonians that aren't afraid of the greek state and they listen and dance to Macedonian music so that part isn't much of a problem anymore, I think the key here is that the younger generations don't care what the greek state thinks anymore. So although there is still problems I was a bit overzealous in naming issues that have since gotten better.

I don't think greeks are inherently bad either, but most of them that I've met have been delusional. I don't know if its more of a process of getting greeks to empathize with them but to realize their greek citizens too and should be treated as such. But maybe empathize is the right way to get them on an emotional level to start a social movement for change.

thats really interesting why you left, I would of never thought someone would leave there country because of how the population around them acted; but also finding a job must of been also very important. Do you ever regret leaving or would you of gone to a different country?
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:13 AM   #17
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@Nushevski777
This is actually great news and I'm happy to hear there is so much improvement!

Does your grandpa stay permanently in Greece? Do you happen to also have a Greek citizenship yourself? Voting can definitely help!

No, no regrets for leaving Greece. I have a more cosmopolitan and multicultural mindset. Thus, I also have concerns about the US and even Australia. I like Canada though!
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:10 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by YuriB View Post
@Nushevski777
This is actually great news and I'm happy to hear there is so much improvement!

Does your grandpa stay permanently in Greece? Do you happen to also have a Greek citizenship yourself? Voting can definitely help!

No, no regrets for leaving Greece. I have a more cosmopolitan and multicultural mindset. Thus, I also have concerns about the US and even Australia. I like Canada though!
Definitely good news, I've always had the mindset for some reason that their still treated as if the greek civil war hasn't ended which was so far from the truth.

My grandfather came to Canada after his mandatory service in the army in the 1966, I was born in Canada so I don't have greek citizenship and have never been back although I'd like to go one day. Who is there to vote for; I don't follow greek politics so are there major parties that are actually offering stuff for the minorities in greece, I've heard of rainbow party but do they even do anything?

Thanks, I like Canada too but sometimes it's easy to take it for granted.
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