Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry

[Soldier of Macedon]

People that claim to be the same ethnicity as yourself (Greek) were united with the Turks against other Christians in several acts, this is a fact. It's easy for you to talk about 'yours' and 'theirs' here on a Macedonian forum, but the actions of Greek-speakers should rightfully be considered in a collective manner, to obtain a true and objective picture. While 'yours' were growing some balls each time a Ventian or Russian ship sailed past the Peloponnesian coast, 'theirs' were too busy trying to preserve their 'special' status within the Ottoman Empire, at the expense of other Christians. Fact.

[Spartan]

People that claim to be the same ethnicity as yourself (Greek) were united with the Turks against other Christians in several acts, this is a fact.

Agree

It's easy for you to talk about 'yours' and 'theirs' here on a Macedonian forum, but the actions of Greek-speakers should rightfully be considered in a collective manner, to obtain a true and objective picture.

I respect your opinion to look at it, and judge at as you like.
Personally, I think thats generalizing a bit, but whatever.... just my opinion.

While 'yours' were growing some balls each time a Ventian or Russian ship sailed past the Peloponnesian coast,

The Venetians and Russians knew who to go to if it was rebellion they were seeking.
I dont see why this fact would bother someone.

'theirs' were too busy trying to preserve their 'special' status within the Ottoman Empire, at the expense of other Christians. Fact.

Traitors and weaklings

[Soldier of Macedon]

The Venetians and Russians knew who to go to if it was rebellion they were seeking.

The Venetians and Russians went wherever they felt was appropriate at the time, and that wasn't always the remote coasts of the Peloponnese. In the end, it took the assistance of the English and French in addition to the above for you to realise your apparently 'clear' aims.

Traitors and weaklings

People of your ethnicity, and they didn't seem to think they were traitors and weaklings.

[Spartan]

The Venetians and Russians went wherever they felt was appropriate at the time, and that wasn't always the remote coasts of the Peloponnese.

Between 1460 and 1830, it was more often than not Lakonia, more specifically the Mani peninsula....and the venetians had abandoned all claims in the Morea in the 1700s
Geography?
Coincidence?

In the end, it took the assistance of the English and French in addition to the above for you to realise your apparently 'clear' aims.

Like I said...dont see why this would bother someone.

People of your ethnicity, and they didn't seem to think they were traitors and weaklings.

Then they are sadly mistaken.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Between 1460 and 1830, it was more often than not Lakonia, more specifically the Mani peninsula.
Geography?
Coincidence?

Really? So they never tried the same with populations in Macedonia, Serbia, Bulgaria and the western coasts of the Balkans?

Like I said...dont see why this would bother someone.

It bothers me when Greeks lie and make out like they did everything themselves, when it is more than obvious that your people would have been soundly defeated by the Ottomans had not your saviours arrived.

Then they are sadly mistaken.

Says the guy alive in 2010, not the contemporaries.

Personally, I think thats generalizing a bit, but whatever.... just my opinion.

Of course you do, because you have done everything you can to distance yourself in all ways from what people of your ethnicity (but not of your geographic location) have done that doesn't blend with the narrative you're trying to present. Unfortunately, just like our relatives and kinsmen, we can't choose events of specific areas only as representatives of the general picture. If 10 Greeks from the Peloponnese did an honourable thing, and a 1000 Greeks outside of the Peloponnese were dishonourable racists, then generally speaking, Greeks are dishonourable racists, because it is the norm, and not the exception, that is considered in a general light.

[Spartan]

Really? So they never tried the same with populations in Macedonia, Serbia, Bulgaria and the western coasts of the Balkans?

Not saying that, I meant in comparison to other regions of greece.
But they came often to mani, as the maniates held out/rebelled for much of the occupation. This made them an obvious and logical choice. The Turk grip wasnt solid in some areas of the south, and it only made sense to work with these people.
The geography was a plus as well.

It bothers me when Greeks lie and make out like they did everything themselves,

Im not saying that.
I havent lied.

when it is more than obvious that your people would have been soundly defeated by the Ottomans had not your saviours arrived.

Only a hate for greece would bring one to be bitter about this.

Says the guy alive in 2010, not the contemporaries.

Thats what I believe

If 10 Greeks from the Peloponnese did an honourable thing, and a 1000 Greeks outside of the Peloponnese were dishonourable racists, then generally speaking, Greeks are dishonourable racists, because it is the norm, and not the exception, that is considered in a general light.

True...but those 10, regardless of what you think of the 1000, are not guilty of being 'dishonorable'.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Only a hate for greece would bring one to be bitter about this.

Don't give impartiality the name of "hate", irrespective of what I feel towards the Greek state for the way they have treated the Macedonians, I can remain objective in my assessments. Only someone that is in complete ignorance and denial would imply that the fighters of the 1821 rebellion were able to 'win' the battle against the Ottomans without external help. They (great powers) created a state for you, you didn't achieve it yourselves.

True...but those 10, regardless of what you think of the 1000, are not guilty of being 'dishonorable'.

When they remain passive and do nothing to stop or condemn the actions of their ethnic 'brethren', then they are guilty by association. As an ethnic group you're all in it together, so people will generally refer to your actions in a collective manner, regardless if you agree with that (as an individual) or not.

[Soldier of Macedon]

15th century

Kladas, a Greek from Laconia, was granted lordship by Mehmet ........In 1463, Kladas joined the Venetians in their ongoing war against the Ottomans......

Kladas was quite happy to be a Turkish tool prior to joining the ranks of another group of foreigners, the Venetians, who fought against the Ottomans.

16th century


From 1500 to 1570, Mani kept its autonomy without any invasion from the Ottomans.

The Greek writer called Kassis is cited several times in your wikipedia article. Please reveal where Kassis obtained his information. Wasn't the Morea an Ottoman 'sanjak' between 1458 to 1687?

The Ottomans were busy driving the Venetians out of the Peloponnese.......

The Venetians were there, again.

The Maniots found a champion in 1612, Charles Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua and Nevers. Charles was a descendant of the Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II Palaeologus through his grandmother, who was of the line of Theodore I of Montferrat, Andronicus' son.[29] Through this connection he claimed the throne of Constantinople. He began plotting with the Maniots, who addressed him as "King Constantine Palaeologus".

Another foreigner in Gonzaga. Please reveal where Kassis obtained his information.

In 1645, a new Turkish-Venetian War, the so-called "Cretan War" began, during which the Republic of Venice was attempting to defend Crete, one of their provinces since 1204, from the Ottoman Empire, initially under Ibrahim I. The Maniots supported the Venetians by offering them ships..........

The Venetians were there, again.

Baba arrived in Mani demanding that the Maniots surrender hostages, but instead he was answered with bullets. During the night, ten Maniots went and cut the hawsers of Hasan's ships. This caused some of Baba's ships to founder on some rocks, and the Maniots, taking advantage of the situation, attacked and killed the Turks and seized the ships. Baba managed to escape with only one ship.

Please reveal where Kassis obtained his information.

18th Century

After the envoys were killed, the remaining Maniots attacked the Ottomans. The fighting was fierce, and only 6,000 Turks managed to reach Mystras. No one knew exactly how many casualties the Maniots suffered, but the Turks definitively lost 10,000 men.

Kassis, again. Same inquiry from me, again.

Throughout the 18th century Russia were continually urging the Macedonians and neighbouring Balkan peoples to rebel against the Ottomans, and this call was heeded to. Documents refer to several Macedonians crossing the borders into the Austrian and Russian empires, the latter even created regiments in their army consisting of Macedonians during 1752. It was these events, in addition to the sporadic rebellions carried out by optimistic Macedonians and neighbouring peoples up until the 18th century, that turned the Ottomans sharply in favour of the Greek-speaking people in the Rum Millet. The latter, rather than joining the other Christians, graciously received Ottoman assistance to expand and consolidate their hold on the Rum Millet. Enter the Phanariot domination in Wallachia and Moldavia, and the forced cessation of Romanian and Slavic-speaking church liturgy and schools during 1766-67.

Clearly, the Ottomans weren't too annoyed by the actions of the Maniots, they did not represent the general view of the Ottomans towards the Greek-speaking people in the Rum Millet. Had not the Turks shown your people special favour from this point onwards, one only wonders how much smaller the number of native Greek-speakers would have been in the Ottoman Empire by the 1821.

[Onur]

The interesting contradiction is, if some Greeks really collaborated with Venetians at that time then they probably called as traitors by the patriarchy and other majority of Greek people who remained loyal to Ottoman Empire. They probably regarded these pro-Venetian Greeks as Catholic converts and betrayers.

The contradiction is, now Spartan calls them as "traitors and weaklings" instead.

Also, SOM is right about the collaboration between Byzantine Greeks and Turks. I should remind you that after 8th century, Byzantine dynasty started to became half Turk, half Greek already because of intermarriages. Also after 9th century, their military force was totally dependent on mercenary Turk(Cuman, Pecheneg and some Oghuzs) soldiers, since their common enemy was Russians and all Catholics. Thats why Ottoman Empire captured Anatolia so quickly because none of these mercenary soldiers fought against their Turkish speaking kinsmen beside Byzantine Greeks. This is considered as the first event for widely used term "Broken arrow" invented. It`s still used in today`s military glossary. Byzantine Empire hires Cuman Turk mercenaries from Balkans to fight against Ottoman Empire in Anatolia but when they face vs each other, they see that their opponent army is also Turks and they brake their arrows as a symbol for cease fire.

Clearly, the Ottomans weren't too annoyed by the actions of the Maniots, they did not represent the general view of the Ottomans towards the Greek-speaking people in the Rum Millet. Had not the Turks shown your people special favour from this point onwards, one only wonders how much smaller the number of native Greek-speakers would have been in the Ottoman Empire by the 1821.

Spartan only showed us some non-scientific British missionary reports with sentences and descriptions like a movie scenario, so i am still not convinced about this Maniot rebellions. Especially the expressions like "Churchbells was the proof of Maniots freedom vs Turks" is so stupid. Church-bells was never banned Christian populated places in Ottoman Empire, instead the Turks helped and funded local people to build churches.

Even if this story of Maniots is true, most definitely the Turks didn't care about them since they had a giant Empire to run and Hapsburg Empire to deal with.

[Spartan]

Don't give impartiality the name of "hate", irrespective of what I feel towards the Greek state for the way they have treated the Macedonians, I can remain objective in my assessments.

Disagree, and its really showing.
Bordering on parroting.
I respect your view on this matter, no need to say it in every post.
All I was arguing was that you and your buddy onur were claiming that 'no blood was shed pre 1821.

Only someone that is in complete ignorance and denial would imply that the fighters of the 1821 rebellion were able to 'win' the battle against the Ottomans without external help

I didnt imply that.

Kladas was quite happy to be a Turkish tool prior to joining the ranks of another group of foreigners, the Venetians, who fought against the Ottomans.

And?

The Greek writer called Kassis is cited several times in your wikipedia article. Please reveal where Kassis obtained his information. Wasn't the Morea an Ottoman 'sanjak' between 1458 to 1687?

If you dont believe it, go look for it.
Ive read countless pages about the Maniots and their resilience
Its common knowledge that the Maniots resisted the Turk from day 1.
Sorry that this bothers you.
It is your perrogative to minimize their struggle, or deny it alltogether.
Your opinion doesnt change the reality.
Whatever floats your boat champ.

The Venetians were there, again.

so?

Another foreigner in Gonzaga. Please reveal where Kassis obtained his information.

Please go find it.
If you want to prove it wrong, be my guest.

The Venetians were there, again.

And?

Throughout the 18th century Russia were continually urging the Macedonians and neighbouring Balkan peoples to rebel against the Ottomans, and this call was heeded to. Documents refer to several Macedonians crossing the borders into the Austrian and Russian empires, the latter even created regiments in their army consisting of Macedonians during 1752.

Good for them...you should be proud.

The latter, rather than joining the other Christians, graciously received Ottoman assistance to expand and consolidate their hold on the Rum Millet.

Thats unfortunate.

[Spartan]

Even if this story of Maniots is true, most definitely the Turks didn't care about them since they had a giant Empire to run and Hapsburg Empire to deal with.

What ever makes you feel better
Do you still stand by the statement that 'no blood was shed between 1460-1821"?

[Soldier of Macedon]

All I was arguing was that you and your buddy onur were claiming that 'no blood was shed pre 1821.

Check post #130 of this thread, I asked what blood did Greeks shed before 1821, I didn't state that no blood was shed whatsoever, so enough of your dramatisation.

It is your perrogative to minimize their struggle, or deny it alltogether.

It's unfortunate that you feel I am trying to minimise their actions as insignificant, I just don't agree with your exaggerated understanding of these events.

And?

And what? Were it not for the Venetians, Kladas would have remained a tool of the Turks.

Please go find it.
If you want to prove it wrong, be my guest.

You made the statement, not me. Don't sweat it, champ, you're not the first Greek to make a claim and then subsequently refuse to substantiate it.

Wasn't the Morea an Ottoman 'sanjak' between 1458 to 1687?

Simple question which received a whinge in response. I guess your emotion has got the better of you, shame.

Good for them...you should be proud.

I am.

Thats unfortunate.

For some, not for your people. Your hatred for the Turks doesn't allow you to accept this deep collaboration with Greeks, it's unfortunate as it blinds you from the truth.

[Spartan]

Check post #130 of this thread, I asked what blood did Greeks shed before 1821, I didn't state that no blood was shed whatsoever, so enough of your dramatisation.

Fair enough, although if anyone is being dramatic it is you.
Ive remained cool and collected through this whole line of questioning

It's unfortunate that you feel I am trying to minimise their actions as insignificant, I just don't agree with your exaggerated understanding of these events.

Where did I exaggerate?
I said the Maniates fought against the Turkish oppression throughout their time in the Morea.
Do you disagree?

And what? Were it not for the Venetians, Kladas would have remained a tool of the Turks.

Sure...and if that was the case, he would have been dealt with too...imo.

You made the statement, not me. Don't sweat it, champ, you're not the first Greek to make a claim and then subsequently refuse to substantiate it.

I did substatiate it, and I could do so even further.
Your mind is made up, so I honestly dont see the point.
If you believe the events cited in my initial post are a lie, or the man that wrote it is lieing.... show me.
Can you substatiate that the events in the text i provided are 'stories', and has no truth to it?

Simple question which received a whinge in response. I guess your emotion has got the better of you, shame.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion, but ok .

I am.

Good man.
Surely then, you can understand that I am proud of my ancestors as well.

For some, not for your people. Your hatred for the Turks doesn't allow you to accept this deep collaboration with Greeks,

my people never collaborated with the Turks, maybe a traitor here or there, but for the most part not in the least.

it's unfortunate as it blinds you from the truth.

I agree with you, and concede that many greeks collaborated with the Turk..... Not my people though...they fought them.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Fair enough, although if anyone is being dramatic it is you.

Why, because I questioned you about the assertions you made? God forbid.

I said the Maniates fought against the Turkish oppression throughout their time in the Morea.
Do you disagree?

No, I don't disagree, I just don't agree with the way you have presented your point of view, because it appears that nearly all of the 'rebellions' by the Maniots were a result of foreigners initiating battle against the Ottomans rather than local grass-roots uprisings. You're also unable to accept the actions of your ethnic 'brethren' as a part of the collective, because they are apparently not "your" people.

I did substatiate it, and I could do so even further.
Your mind is made up, so I honestly dont see the point.

No, you provided a wiki article that uses Kassis as a source for nearly all of your assertions. I merely asked who and what he based his sources on. Too much to ask? I am prepared to accept an alteration of my perception concerning these events if they could be corroborated with something more than a wiki article.

Can you substatiate that the events in the text i provided are 'stories', and has no truth to it?

That's not the way it works, buddy. If I claim that Heracles was really an Indian based on what one author wrote, and failed to provide a follow up in support, is it right that I ask for you to refute such an argument? It's really quite simple, but perhaps you just don't have the sources to back up some of the statements made in your wiki article, which is the reason why you're giving me this song and dance.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion, but ok

I asked a simple question, if the Morea was an Ottoman 'sanjak' between 1458 to 1687, you still haven't answered. What conclusion would you expect one to come to?

Surely then, you can understand that I am proud of my ancestors as well.

I know you are, and you have every right to be, but you should also be open to criticism, which you're not. As for this:

I agree with you, and concede that many greeks collaborated with the Turk..... Not my people though...they fought them.

Tell me, do you go around saying "my" people and "your" people to your fellow ethnic Greeks? Is an ethnic Greek from Thessaly not allowed to be proud of what the Maniots did, can they not say that "my people fought against the Turks" also?

[Spartan]

No, I don't disagree, I just don't agree with the way you have presented your point of view, because it appears that nearly all of the 'rebellions' by the Maniots were a result of foreigners initiating battle against the Ottomans rather than local grass-roots uprisings.

The Maniates also refused (at first) to join the newly formed greek state. They are responsible for the assasination of Kapodistria, and took up arms against King Otto (at first).
They also resisted the Venetians as well at times.
They just didnt like foreign rule....from anybody.
Im not saying this was in the name of Hellas either....they just didnt like foreign rule.
Of course they were at times during the occupation supported, and riled up, by foreign powers, but they actively sought this help as well.

You're also unable to accept the actions of your ethnic 'brethren' as a part of the collective, because they are apparently not "your" people.

I dont condone those actions.

No, you provided a wiki article that uses Kassis as a source for nearly all of your assertions. I merely asked who and what he based his sources on. Too much to ask? I am prepared to accept an alteration of my perception concerning these events if they could be corroborated with something more than a wiki article.

I was using that text to show that their was fighting/battles/resistance to the Ottoman inbetween 1450-1821. I dont know if every detail is correct, but i feel it is enough to prove the point I was initially arguing.
Do you want me to post more book pages stating the southern Lakonians resisted the Ottoman, and their rebellious charachter?

I asked a simple question, if the Morea was an Ottoman 'sanjak' between 1458 to 1687,

Yes it was, a province that proved to be a pest to the ottoman during those years in its southern region, and was at times not fully under their control.

I know you are, and you have every right to be,

Thank-you

but you should also be open to criticism, which you're not.

How do you figure?
Ive responded to all your critisisms.

Tell me, do you go around saying "my" people and "your" people to your fellow ethnic Greeks?

If i feel I need to.

Is an ethnic Greek from Thessaly not allowed to be proud of what the Maniots did,

In my opinion, no

can they not say that "my people fought against the Turks" also?

If they did, they can.