The pen is mightier then the sword

[Napoleon]

Here's my response to a modern Greek from another forum...


Kallimachos wrote:

The entire line of Macedonian kings claimed direct decendancy from Argos in southern Greece.

This is a classic example of how modern Greek propaganda works...its simply a lie by omission. By only telling half of the story, our modern Greek friends are deliberately trying to make an assertion completely opposite to what the ancient historians originally meant to convey. For instance, yes it is true that since the time of Alexander I, the Argead royal family in Macedonia claimed to be 'Greeks' originally from Argos in the Peloponnese, but that is only half of the story. The Argead kings of Macedonia claimed to be 'Greeks' (not Macedonians) from the Pelopennese who had moved north to territory completely outside of Greece to establish themselves as kings over a non-kindred race (the Macedonians). Isocrates tells this story (myth) in full below in his letter to Philip II;

"And the founder of your empire, although he aspired higher than did his fellow citizens and set his heart on a king's power, was not minded to take the same road as others who set out to attain a like ambition. For they endeavored to win this honor by engendering factions, disorder, and bloodshed in their own cities; he, on the other hand, held entirely aloof from Hellenic territory, and set his heart upon occupying the throne of Macedon. For he knew full well that the Hellenes were not accustomed to submit to the rule of one man, while the other races were incapable of ordering their lives without the control of some such power. And so it came about, owing to his unique insight in this regard, that his kingship has proved to be quite set apart from that of the generality of kings: for, because he alone among the Hellenes did not claim the right to rule over a people of kindred race, he alone was able to escape the perils incident to one-man power."
Isocrates., To Philip, 5.106.

Ironically, even if we were to accept the improbable claim that the Argead kings were actually 'Greek's, this still doesn't change the fact that ancient Greeks such as Isocrates continued to consider the general Macedonian population to be non-Greek. For reasons of politics and prestige, it was common for the rulers of various nations in the ancient world to claim descent from other peoples. For instance, if we were to accept the highly improbably Argead claim to be 'Greeks' originally from the Peloponnese, then we must also accept the following impropable claims as well;

The Spartans kings as 'genuine Egyptians'

"...the Dorian Chieftans are pure are genuine Egyptians. This is the accepted Greek version of the Spartan royal house."
Herodotus., The Histories, 6.54.

The Persians kings as 'Greeks'

"We Persians believe we are descended from Perses, whose father was Danae's son Perseus, and whose mother was Andromeda the daughter of Cepheus. Thus we are of the same blood as yourselves, and it would not be right for us to make war upon the people from whom we have sprung."
Herodotus., The Histories, 7.150.

...And the Lycestian Macedonian kings (rivals of the Argeads for the throne of Macedonia), at one stage claimed to be 'Bacciads' (Corinthian Greeks) ruling over a non-Greek people...the Macedonians.

"These people, I say, were not ruled by men of native stock; and the Lyncestae became subject to Arrabaeus, who was of the stock of the Bacchiads."
Strabo., Geography, VII.8.

As you can see, the Argead claim of descent from Argos as well as these other claims have more to do with politics and prestige then reality.

This inscription was found in Pella and is called "Pella Katadesmos". It was written by a woman in Pella and it is a love spell. The language is Doric Greek. The alphabet is Greek. The tablet is dated between the 4th and 3rd century BC.

The modern Greeks in their desperation to find 'evidence' of a ancient 'Greek' Macedonian dialect have put forward this inscription as proof that the langauge of the ancient Macedonians was 'Greek'. After all its written in Greek, so the ancient Macedonians must have been 'Greek' right? Unfortunately for our modern Greek friends, this assertion is in direct contradiction to the testimony of numerous ancient historians that the ancient Greeks needed translators to communicate with the ancient Macedonians.

As I wrote before, why is it that evidence of just about every other dialect of ancient Greek has been found on artifacts in Macedonia but not one single trace has ever been found of this elusive 'Greek' Macedonian dialect. Remember, if it was a 'Greek' dialect, then it was so different that both Greeks and Macedonians needed translators for basic communication as evidenced on numerous occasions by the ancient historians. Therefore if this were the case then it would be easy to discover evidence of the elusive dialect, but no trace has ever been found. This fact together with the existence of various Greek dialects being used in Macedonia proves that Greek was a foreign language in the region which was brought into Macedonia as a result of the influence of the various Greek colonies established in Chalcidice as well as Macedonia's proximity to Greece.

Again, I repeat; to this day not one inscription in the lands inhabited by the ancient Macedonians has been found in any other language than Greek. There has been no archaeological evidence to suggest that the ancient Macedonians spoke an entirely different language than the other Hellenic peoples. Every coin, tomb, inscription, artifact, statue etc is in Greek.

Again, the idiotic modern 'Greek' logic, if one speaks Greek, then they must have been 'Greek' right??? This is another modern Greek lie by omission for the simple reason that they forget to mention that ancient Greek had been spoken throughout the mediterranean by numerious different ethnic groups along side their own native languages as an international language of trade and diplomacy for as far back as 700bc (due to the influence of Greek city-state colonisation). If one was to apply the argument that "if a person speaks Greek, then he must be 'Greek'", even further, then the Pelagonians, Thracians, Moesians, Illyrians, Celts, Romans, Jews and numerous other ancient peoples must have all been 'Greek' as well due to the fact that they all had used the Greek language in an official capacity at some stage or another. If this modern 'Greek' argument that "if a person speaks Greek, then he must be 'Greek'", is to be accepted, then we must also accept a similar argument that everybody who uses the internet in English, is a really an 'Englishman'.

The ancient Macedonian elite initially adopted various ancient Greek dialects for reasons of prestige and diplomacy though contact with the ancient Greek colonies in Macedonia such as Olynthos etc. It was only later that Alexander III (the great) adopted the koine as the official administrative language of his multinational, multiracial empire. The ancient Macedonian aristocrat Philotas cleary confirms this fact in a statement during his trial;

"One charge made against me is that I disdain to communicate in my native language, that I have no respect for Macedonian customs (which means I have designs on an empire I dispise). That native language of ours has long been rendered obsolete though our dealings with other nations, and conquerors and conquered alike most learn a foreign tongue."
Quintus Curtius Rufus., The History Of Alexander, Book Six, 23.

Although the ancient Macedonians never wrote in there own langauge, evidence of their language has come down to us today through their typonyms such as;

Bylazora
Doberus
Edessa
Pluinna
Ossa
Stargira

Here are ancient Macedonian coins from both ancient Macedonia

...Again the absurd modern Greek logic that if a person uses Greek, then he must be 'Greek'. If this is the case, then are the following coins and peoples 'Greek' as well???


Armenia - Tigranes II (37-74bc)



Cilicia (31bc)



Judea - Trajan of Sepphoris (82ad)



Moesia (198ad)



Paeonia - Audoleon (315bc)



Phoenicia - Tyre (71ad)



Phrygia - Akmoneia (33bc)



Thrace - Kotys II (57bc)



Scythia - Vonones (75bc)



Etc Etc Etc

[TrueMacedonian]

Napolean I can only compare your thread with the nuking of hiroshima. Outstanding and Devastating to the modern "greeks" propaganda mytHistory.

[osiris]

great post napoleon but unfortunately it would have fallen on deaf greak ears.

as you correctly mention the instances of the ruling and upper classes speaking a foreign language are countless and exist even today in some parts of the world. modern greeks would be best served concentrating on their recent history and trying to understand why they so willingly abandoned their native langauges and adopted a foreign one as their own.

their non stop babbling on about the ancients is to deflect interest and scrutiny of their 19th century history, and to continue to hide their non greek origins. they are consequently masters of deceit and taking facts out of context. they refuse to explain why the needed to recreate a langauge and recast a culture and then force themselves to learn and adopt it as their own. i dont care if the albanians of the peloponese and attica and the valchs of thessaly readily deluded themselves and became greeks, what concerns me is why they then forced others into their madness.

its laughable when my kin who belong to and still practice our culture are eagerly accepted as greeks while we are nonsensically derided as slavs, a non existant ethnicity.

i challenge any greek to post one example of the ancient macedonian "greek" dialect they keep harping on about, also to explain why greek colonies were established in macedonia if it was already greek.

i also challenge them to explain why egyptian semitic and pelasgian influences on ancient greek culture are dissmissed so readily as unimportant while any greek influence on the rest of the ancient world is lauded as proof of greekness in those nations.

[Napoleon]

Hi Osiris & TrueMacedonian,

mytHistory...I love this term, it perfectly sums up modern 'Greece' in one single word.

i challenge any greek to post one example of the ancient macedonian "greek" dialect they keep harping on about, also to explain why greek colonies were established in macedonia if it was already greek.

So true...it seems our modern Greek friends never mention the influence and effect ancient Greek colonisation had on ancient Macedonia let alone answer the basic question as to why the ancient Greeks would even establish colonies there if the place was 'already' Greek. See the image below for the extent of ancient Greek colonisation in Macedonia.

their non stop babbling on about the ancients is to deflect interest and scrutiny of their 19th century history, and to continue to hide their non greek origins.

Exactly Osiris...and this is the real reason behind their dispute with Macedonia. A recognition of the Republic of Macedonia is also a recognition of Macedonian ethnicity and language. They fear that recognising Macedonian ethnicity would eventually lead to them having to recognise other large sections of modern Greek society as being non-Greek as well, resulting in the unravelling of the foundation myth behind the creation of the modern Greek state (that everybody in Greece is Greek and directly descended from the ancient Hellenes).

i challenge any greek to post one example of the ancient macedonian "greek" dialect they keep harping on about

Osiris...they have just as much chance of finding evidence of this elusive ancient Macedonian 'Greek' dialect as they have of finding some self-proclaimed Greek 'Macedonian' Pontian and proving he is directly descended from Alexander the Great.

[osiris]

napoleon modern greeks seem to be living in a frappe fantasy, and dont they just love to announce their greekness. no matter what the circumstances are they will always exclaim proudly how greek they are. it defines them completely no matter what the question their first response is well i am greek and blah blah blah. very insecure motherfuckers and so besotted with their turkish culture.

[TerraNova]

Hi Osiris & TrueMacedonian,

mytHistory...I love this term, it perfectly sums up modern 'Greece' in one single word.

It's a really nice word.

So true...it seems our modern Greek friends never mention the influence and effect ancient Greek colonisation had on ancient Macedonia let alone answer the basic question as to why the ancient Greeks would even establish colonies there if the place was 'already' Greek. See the image below for the extent of ancient Greek colonisation in Macedonia.

When the colonization took place (800-500 BC) the Kingdom of Macedon was either non existant...(till 700-650BC) or too small -just Emathia and inner Pieria-and away from the coast.
All this coastline was inhabited by Thracian tribes.
Those of the area of later Macedonia,were expelled by Alexander I(478-450BC).

Osiris...they have just as much chance of finding evidence of this elusive ancient Macedonian 'Greek' dialect as they have of finding some self-proclaimed Greek 'Macedonian' Pontian and proving he is directly descended from Alexander the Great.

"Katadesmos" of Pella is an evidence.A form of Greek,close but different from Doric,and similar to the Northwestern Greek dialects.
It was written by a simple woman from Pella 4th-3rd cent BC,and not from the royal elite or some officials.
Also many Macedonian names and placenames are known,as well as some words.
90-95% of them are recognized as clearly Greek.

[Soldier of Macedon]

What's the matter Terry, got bored talking to your racist brothers on the Greek forums?

There is no such thing as a Macedonian 'dialect' of Greek in the ancient or modern period, and there is no agreement among pro-Greek scholars if (in the case it was a Greek dialect, which it wasn't) it is Doric or Aeolic, everything is based on speculative fantasies biased in favour of a modern myth (that Macedonia is apparently 'Greek') recently constructed by some nationalistic deludes.

[Spartan]

Again, correct me if Im wrong SoM, but I believe Doric is a form of Ancient Greek which is closely related to tsakonian.The latter which is still spoken by a few thousand people in the Pelloponese in isolated mountain towns.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have read that Spartan, do you have any examples on hand of ancient Doric and Tsakonian so we can see how similar they are?

[Spartan]

Only what Ive read on Wiki, and what my grandfather has told me.
However there is a language map of the Peloponnese that has been posted on this forum that shows where in Peloponiso it was spoken. If someone could post it here it would be great.

Here is what I found-
Tsakonian is a dialect of the Indo-European Greek language, now widely agreed to be descended from the Doric branch. Although it is often classified as a dialect of Modern Greek, it can be regarded as a separate Hellenic language, since all other extant Greek varieties are Attic in origin. According to Dr. Nick Nicholas, Greek scholars prefer to use the term διάλεκτος (dialect) for varieties mutually intelligible and unintelligible with Greek, while using ιδίωμα (idiom) for intermediate varieties (The Story of Pu, p. 482). Professor Athanasios Costakis (a native Tsakonian) calls it a dialect, while calling its varieties "idioms."


Light Blue-Tsakonian
Pink-Albanian
Purple- Greek

link- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language
(if you scroll down on the wiki page, it further explains the sounds and intracacies of the language)
(Slovak could decipher it better im sure, as he is apparently a linguist. Its a bit over my head I must admit)


The Tsakonian Language
Language Name : Tsakonian
Alternate Name(s) : Tsakonia
Dialect Name(s) : Northern Tsakonian Southern Tsakonian Propontis Tsakonian
Alternate Dialect Name(s) : Kastanista-Sitena Vatka-Havoutsi Leonidio-Prastos
Spoken in : Greece
Language Code : tsd (Former code: TSD)
Status : Living
Family : Indo-European
Subgroup : Doric
Subgrouping Code : IEGAB

Link- http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/...n.cfm?code=tsd

Of the local dialects, Tsakonian, spoken in certain mountain villages in eastern Peloponnese, is quite aberrant and shows evidence of descent from the ancient Doric dialect (e.g., it often has an /a/ sound for the early Greek /ā/ that went to /ē/ in Attic, later to /i/).

Encyclopedia Britanica-

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/607588/Tsakonian-dialect

Here is an example of the language/dialect in its written form


The yellow is in Tsakonian
The white in modern Greek
it says "Our language is Tsakonian. Ask and they'll tell you."

[Spartan]

I just noticed the word used for language- "Grousa"
I think you guys were having this discussion in another topic
Maybe this can shed some light on your dialogue?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks Spartan, I will add this in the other thread.

[Spartan]

cheers my friend

[Napoleon]

TerraNova Wrote:

When the colonization took place (800-500 BC) the Kingdom of Macedon was either non existant...(till 700-650BC) or too small -just Emathia and inner Pieria-and away from the coast. All this coastline was inhabited by Thracian tribes. Those of the area of later Macedonia,were expelled by Alexander I(478-450BC).

This is not correct as the majority of the ancient Greek colonies in Macedonia lasted well into the Roman period.

"Katadesmos" of Pella is an evidence.A form of Greek,close but different from Doric,and similar to the Northwestern Greek dialects. It was written by a simple woman from Pella 4th-3rd cent BC,and not from the royal elite or some officials. Also many Macedonian names and placenames are known,as well as some words. 90-95% of them are recognized as clearly Greek.

As I said before, this is direct contradition to what numerous ancient historians such who stated that both the ancient Macedonians and Greeks needed translators to communicate with each other. This "Katadesmos" tablet is nothing more then an artifact written in one of the numerous Greek dialects discovered on artifacts in ancient Macedonia thus proving that the language was foreign to the region resulting from the influence of the ancient Greek colonies and Macedonia's proximity to Greece.

[Pelister]

Just got around to reading this. Nice post Napoleon. I found the quotes from Herotodus and Strabo interesting, as well as the colonizing practices of the ancient Greeks. I was reading one of Hammonds' books once and he claims that it took the ancient Greeks hundreds of years of trial and failure to colonize the coastal region of Macedonia and Thrace, and each time they were repelled by Thracian tribeman and people.

That map of the Peloponese is interesting. Most of the topynyms are Slavic - the descendents of Thracian and Macedonian tribes settling these parts I suspect.