Population of Macedonia and Adjacent Areas

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  • Carlin
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 3332

    Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
    Not only did French travel writer Olivier (end of 18th century) consider the entire population of Macedonia to be "Greek" but many other European nations, including Russians, did not know the ethnic composition of Macedonia.

    Before the Russian-Turkish war of 1828-1829, according to Milan Prelog, a Russian journalist was amazed that in European Turkey there exist people of Orthodox faith, who still speak a language that's close to Church Slavonic (Milan Prelog, Slovenska renesansa 1780-1848, Zagreb 1924, 159).

    Even Victor Grigorovich, as related to us by D. Miladinov, during his visit to Ohrid in 1844 wondered how in these distant parts of the Balkans, where previously it was believed only Greeks lived, there is a Slavic-speaking population.

    -- Page 74 of Dragan Taskovski's book "The birth of the Macedonian nation"
    From the same book ^^ page 106.

    The Bulgarian writer St. Salgandzhiev writes ironically about a Salonica teacher as being a "mixture of nationalities", because the teacher's father was a Vlach and his mother Macedonian.

    When asked whether he was "Bulgarian" or Vlach the teacher replied: "I am neither Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Vlach, but a pure Macedonian - same as Philip and Alexander and Aristotle the philosopher."



    Elsewhere in the same book, 1871 source relates how there are such people in Macedonia who think and talk about how they are not Bulgarians, but Macedonians and these are mostly Graeco-Vlachs (= 'Greeks') and Graecophile "Bulgarians" (List Pravo, Tsarigrad, March 1871).



    According to Enicherev, year 1874, the Bitola Vlachs used to sing: "The Pan-Slavist scab will not infect the Macedonians."

    Last edited by Carlin; 10-14-2019, 10:38 AM.

    Comment

    • Liberator of Makedonija
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 1595

      Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
      From the same book ^^ page 106.

      The Bulgarian writer St. Salgandzhiev writes ironically about a Salonica teacher as being a "mixture of nationalities", because the teacher's father was a Vlach and his mother Macedonian.

      When asked whether he was "Bulgarian" or Vlach the teacher replied: "I am neither Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Vlach, but a pure Macedonian - same as Philip and Alexander and Aristotle the philosopher."

      ]
      I read this in a different book, I think the conversation took place in the 1840s?
      I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

      Comment

      • Liberator of Makedonija
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2014
        • 1595

        Here it is, it was in the 1860s my mistake.

        I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

        Comment

        • Carlin
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 3332

          The Peresadyes were a tribe that lived in the ancient region of Illyria and ruled over, or with the Enchelii, or the Sesarethi, and were part of the Taulantii group of tribes. About their classification they had been identified as Illyrian tribe, however, recent research has strengthened the possibility that they were Thracians. The name itself is very close to Thracian Berisades, suggesting a possible Thracian origin.

          - The Cambridge ancient history: The fourth century B.C. p. 427:
          "The name suggests that they were Thracians, and the placing of gold foil on the face of a corps to form either a mask or just a mouthpiece is known to have been practiced in Thrace. This suggestion has been recently strengthened by the discovery of such death-masks..."

          - A History of Macedonia: 550-336 B.C by Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, Guy Thompson Griffith, 1978, ISBN 0198148143, page 93:
          "The Peresadyes, then, were the rulers of Trebenishte, and Hecataeus wrote of them when they were at the height of their power."

          URL:
          Last edited by Carlin; 11-09-2019, 02:40 PM.

          Comment

          • Carlin
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 3332

            Се отвори апетитот и на северниот сосед

            URL:
            Националната српска телевизија РТС, во својата емисија „Квадратура на кругот“, неделава објави видеоприлог во кој се тврди дека „Мијаците се старо српско племе, кое денес живее во западниот дел од Македонија“. Во прилогот се вели и дека „денешните наследници на Мијаците ги зачувале обичаите на српската династија Немањиќ“. За домашната експертска јавност ваквите јавно изнесени […]




            Додека државните институции се посветени на градење на добрососедските односи, а релациите меѓу Бугарија и Македонија како и оние помеѓу Грција и Македонија сега веќе процедурално се минираат од страна на двете соседни земји при примена на Преспанскиот договор и договорот за добрососедство, деновиве „темпирана бомба“ е фрлена од северниот сосед.

            Имено, националната српска телевизија РТС, во својата емисија „Квадратура на кругот“, неделава објави видеоприлог во кој се тврди дека „Мијаците се старо српско племе, кое денес живее во западниот дел од Македонија“.

            Во прилогот на српската национална телевизија, кој трагикомично ја разбуди јавноста, е и лиферуваната информација, во врска со дебарско-реканска етнографска целина, во која се наведува дека „денешните наследници на Мијаците ги зачувале обичаите на српската династија Немањиќ“.
            Според тврдењата на етнографот Бранко Станковиќ дадени за РТС, Мијаците денес не постојат (!?). Според српскиот етнограф, денес во Македонија има нивни наследници, кои се идентификуваат со мијачките традиции и верувања, кои, пак, според него, се и со српска националност.

            Ваквите јавно изнесени ставови на српскиот етнограф Станковиќ за домашната експертска јавност се пропагандистички, фактографски и историски неиздржани, со елементи на националшовинистички провокации.

            Според домашните познавачи на проблематиката со кои се консултиравме, ваквите тврдења од српската страна, кои се пласираат периодов за Мијаците не се никаква новина. Експертите дополнуваат и низа други вакви примери, кои во одреден чувствителен момент за Македонија и македонскиот народ се лансираат во функција на негирање на македонскиот посебен етнички супстрат. Тие појаснуваат дека српската, бугарската, но и албанската пропаганда на оваа тема низ годините секогаш биле актуелни и ќе бидат. Тоа е така бидејќи територијата на Македонија и Македонците низ историјата биле окупирани и управувани од разни сили, кои потоа од свои интереси „креирале своја историја“.

            Познавачот на историјата на Мијаците Мелетије Брковски, за „Нова Македонија“ вели дека Мијаците единствен спој со Србите би можеле да имаат преку печалбарскиот живот што го воделе заминувајќи на работа во Белград и во Србија. Секакво друго тврдење дека Мијаците и денешните нивни наследници, кои живеат во западниот дел на Македонија, се српски племиња е целосна измислица и невистина.

            – Мијаците може да се каже дека се онаа племенска група во македонскиот род, кои себеси се сметаат за потомци на најстарите жители на Балканот, односно на Пелазгите и Мионите (Минејците), но истовремено може слободно да се коментира дека тие всушност се и легитимни претставници наАнтичките Македонци. Сепак, низ времето оваа посебна етногена група меѓу македонските Словени, која се одликува со силно изразена стара словенска (старомакедонска) основа, во зависност од владетелите во земјава и во регионот, била асимилирана од цивилизациите и од властите што владееле тука. Оттука единствено можам да го сфатам и протолкувам некаквото поврзување и идентификување на Србите со Мијаците – вели Брковски.

            Според него, ниедно друго население од централниот тип немало и нема поголем стремеж за самостојност и независност на Македонија одошто Мијаците. Во таа насока, како што објаснува Брковски, денешните наследници на Мијаците се гордеат токму со своето име и со своите благородни генетски особености, кои го карактеризираат Македонецот на овие простори. Слично размислува и Мојсо Поповски, дипломиран професор по историја и креатор и администратор на блогот „Лазарополе“. Според Поповски, српските тврдења дека Мијаците се српско племе што живее во дебарско-реканската етнографска целина е фраза веќе слушната на овие простори. Како што објаснува професорот, ваквите тврдења, кои сега се повторно актуелни од, за него, непознати причини, доаѓаат од српска страна уште во 19 век, а пред тоа и од бугарска, но и од албанска. Проблемот, како што објаснува професорот по историја, е поради наша грешка, бидејќи политичарите во земјава досега не обрнувале внимание на културната и на локалната историја туку единствено на политичката.

            – На почетокот сакам да истакнам дека денес постојат луѓе што се гордеат со своите предци и со културното наследство на Мијаците. Да си Мијак треба да си таму и да живееш во тој регион. Сепак, денес сите тие населби што се идентификуваат со Мијаците се викенд-населби и немаат реална допирна точка со мијаштвото единствено во наследувањето на некои од обичаите и традициите – вели Поповски.
            Професорот, коментирајќи ги последните случувања на српската национална телевизија РТС во кои се тврдеше дека Мијаците се старо српско племе што живее во денешна западна Македонија, вели дека на тоа не треба да му се придава голема важност.

            – Пред да се зборува на оваа тема треба да се има познавање за пропагандите низ годините во Лазарополе, Галичник и целиот тој крај. Според моите истражувања, во минатото имало различни струи, кои во зависност од тоа кој бил на власт во територијата на денешна Македонија, така се влечеле струите односно наклонетоста кон одредените владетели. Конкретно за српската пропаганда за Мијаците, таа започнува некаде на почетокот на 20 век кога всушност Македонија била под српска власт. Истото тоа се тврди и за времето кога Бугарите ја окупирале Македонија и ги присвојувале Мијаците како нивен народ. Оттука сакам да истакнам дека не треба сериозно да се сфаќаат овие тврдења што сега доаѓаат од Белград, бидејќи тие отсекогаш биле присутни. Важно е да се напомене дека дебарско-реканската етнографска целина и Поречијата се места каде што сонцето свети на поинаков начин и воздухот има посебен мирис и со децении се одржуваат традициите на племињата што живееле таму од кои денес се идентификуваат со карактерот на денешниот Македонец – завршува Поповски.

            Comment

            • Carlin
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 3332

              Empires and Barbarians: The Fall of Rome and the Birth of Europe, by Peter Heather

              Pg. 106: By c. 200 AD, for instance, the Roman army was able to recruit into its ranks Goths - one of the old Wielbark groups - from the fringes of Dacia. A hundred years before, Gothic territories had been too remote from the frontier for this to happen.

              Pg. 135: Gothic troops were serving with Roman armies against Persia even before the attack on Histria in 238.

              Pages 127-8: In 238, after their assault on Histria, the Romans granted the attacking Goths an annual subsidy on condition that they withdrew from the city and returned prisoners. This provided a howl of protest from the local Carpi, who claimed to be ‘more powerful’ than the Goths. The Carpi, as we have seen, were a group of so-called free Dacians established in the Moldavian hinterland of the Carpathians, semi-subdued clients who had not been brought under formal imperial rule. The expansion into the frontier zone of Goths and other Germanic-speakers brought the migrants into competition with these Dacian troops. And, over time, Gothic power in the region grew directly at the Carpi’s expense. In the end, the Carpi lost out completely. Their political independence was totally dismantled, with large numbers -hundreds of thousands of them, according to the Roman sources- being resettled inside the Empire either side of the year 300. Again, precise figures can be doubted, but not the overall picture. The Carpi disappear as an independent political force from the early fourth century, and we have explicit evidence that they were resettled south of the Danube. Likewise, there is not the slightest doubt that the Germanic-speaking Goths replaced native Dacian-speakers as the dominant force around the Carpathian system.

              P. 132: As to the total number of migrants involved, it is impossible to say. […] But it is precisely when faced with this kind of evidential impasse that the qualitative definition of mass migration used in comparative studies becomes helpful. The ‘shock to the political systems’ at the receiving end of each of the migration flows could hardly be clearer. Especially in the third century, the Roman Empire abandoned Transylvanian Dacia, many of the Carpi were pushed out of long-established homes into the Empire […] The domination of this region by Germanic-speakers, so evident from c. 300 AD, was the result of an armed migration flow certainly to be numbered in the thousands, and very probably tens of thousands. Using a qualitative rather than a numerical type of definition now commonly adopted in migration studies, this was straightforwardly a ‘mass’ migration.

              Comment

              • Carlin
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 3332

                Titus Livius (Livy) - URL:


                The demise of Philip happened very seasonably for the purpose of gaining time and collecting strength for the support of a war: for, in a few days after, the nation of the Bastarnians, in consequence of long solicitation, set out from their own abodes, with a large force of infantry and cavalry, and crossed the Danube. [3] Antigonus and Cotto (the latter was a Bastarnian of distinction, and Antigonus had been sent, much against his will, with this same Cotto, as ambassador, to persuade his countrymen to take arms) went forward, to carry intelligence of this to the king; but at a small distance from Amphipolis a rumour, and then authentic information, acquainted them with the king’s death; which event disconcerted the whole arrangement of their plan. [4] It had been arranged in this manner; — Philip was to procure for the Bastarnians a safe passage through Thrace, and supplies of provisions. In order to be able to effect this, he had courted the chieftains in that country by presents, having pledged his faith that the Bastarnians should march through it in a peaceable body. [5] It was proposed to exterminate the nation of the Dardanians, and to establish settlements for the Bastarnians in their country: [6] [p. 1913] from which measure a double advantage would accrue, if both the Dardanians, a nation ever hostile to Macedonia, and anxiously looking to the unfortunate periods of its kings, would be removed out of the way; and the Bastarnians, having left their wives and children in Dardania, might be sent to ravage Italy. [7] That the road to the Adriatic Sea and Italy was through the country of the Scordiscians, and that the army could not be led by any other way; that the Scordiscians would readily grant a passage to the Bastarnians, for they would have no dislike to people resembling themselves in language and manners, and would probably join them in an expedition, when they saw that they were on their way to the plunder of a most opulent nation. [8] The remaining plans were accommodated to every kind of event that might take place; for if the Bastarnians would be cut off by the Romans, still the removal of the Dardanians, and the booty to be gained from the remains of the former, and the full possession of Dardania, would prove a consolation; [9] or if they should be successful, then, while the Romans would be employed in the Bastarnian war, he might recover what he had lost in Greece. Such had been the designs of Philip.

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                • Carlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3332

                  Travels in Epirus, Albania, Macedonia, and Thessaly
                  by F.C.H.L. Pouqueville (London: Printed for Sir Richard Phillips and Co, 1820)

                  1) "The population of Castoria is computed to amount to fifteen hundred families, Christian, Mahometan, and Jew. A mile from Mavrovo, on the east border of the lake, is Crepeni, now a hamlet of only eight families, but once a large village of one thousand inhabitants, near which are the Pelasgic remains of a very ancient city, the Argos Oresticum of Strabo, which, like its founder Orestes, seems to have been persecuted by the furies. By war, pestilence, and famine, this colony from Argos has been effaced from the earth, and even of its successor Crepeni, all that now remains is that, in all public acts of the district of Castoria, it is still entitled the capital of Orestis.

                  It was my intention to make Castoria my central position, from which to make radial excursions to different points of the environs. All those it was not, however, in my power to accomplish, for various reasons, one of which was, that the surrounding inhabitants in general understood only their own tongue, that of the modern Bulgarians, the Triballi of antiquity."

                  2) "Chatista (Siatista as it is writren in Greek,) was founded in the twelfth century, by a body of Valachian shepherds, attracted by the excellence and the extent of the pastures of Mount Bermius."

                  Се смета дека Сачишта е основано уште пред Шишани — во XVI век. Од името е очигледно дека првично било македонска населба, која подоцна станала влашка. На крајот на XVII век митрополитот Зосим II на Охридската архиепископија тука го преместил седиштето на епархијата, кое дотогаш било во Шишани. Во 1677 г. во Геранија е изградена црквата „Св. Петка“ — најстариот зачуван христијански храм во градот. Грчката пропаганда проработела многу рано, бидејќи веќе во 1710 г. во селото било отворено грчко училиште. Според Спиридон Гопчевиќ гратчето традиционално било чисто влашко, но во 1889 г. е утврдено дека од 10–12.000 лица одвај една четвртина разбирале влашки, а сите по дома зборувале грчки. Густав Вајганд тврди дека влашкото село Сачишта е погрчено од дојденци од Шишани. Кога Вајганд ја посетил паланката (крај на XIX век) само старците занеле влашки.

                  Macedonian Wikipedia URL:
                  Last edited by Carlin; 12-07-2019, 02:54 PM.

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                  • Carlin
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3332





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                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      "Who Were the Dardani?", Miroslav Lazic:




                      "OVERVIEW OF ETHNIC STRUCTURE OF DARDANIA DURING THE ROMAN PERIOD", E. Kalaja-Hajdari:
                      Pre-Roman Dardania was inhabited by an indigenous Dardanic population. The Roman invasion was followed with the introduction of a number of novelties regarding the administration, political and economic system, but it also reflected in the



                      Last edited by Carlin; 12-21-2019, 01:04 PM.

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                      • Carlin
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3332

                        "... the Samothracians, like the Ilians, are said to have been recognized as the kinsmen of the Roman people"





                        Last edited by Carlin; 12-24-2019, 10:58 AM.

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                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          Areas settled by Circassians

                          Balkans

                          In 1861–1862 alone, in the Danube Vilayet, there were 41,000 Circassian refugee families. By the end of the process, there were around 250,000 Circassians in the Balkans, accounting for 5 to 7 percent of the total Balkan population, on top of the earlier arrival of 100,000 Crimean Tatars that Balkan populations had just recently had to absorb.

                          Kadir Natho notes that "a net of Circassian settlements enveloped practically all the European part of the Ottoman Empire". Very large numbers of Circassians were settled in Bulgaria. Istoria Bulgarii reports that "about 6,000 families were transferred through Burgas and settled in Thrace; 13,000 families-- through Varna and Shumen -- to Silistra and Vidin; 12,000 families to Sofia and Nish. The remainder 10,000 families were distributed in Svishtovsk, Nikipolsk, Oriskhovsk, and other outskirts." There was a chain of Circassian settlements stretching from Dobrudja to the Serbian border, with an additional cluster of 23 settlements in the Kosovo field. Circassians also settled in a few mostly Greek areas, particularly in the southern part of Epirus, Cyprus and one colony at Panderma in the Sea of Marmara.

                          URL:

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                          • Liberator of Makedonija
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2014
                            • 1595

                            What happened to the Circassians? Used to be tons in Macedonia, were they deported in the 1920s?
                            I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

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                            • tchaiku
                              Member
                              • Nov 2016
                              • 786

                              Comment

                              • Carlin
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2011
                                • 3332

                                The so-called "Culture of Koman" (that existed in northern Albania during the 7th and 8th century AD) is classified by scholars like Popovic and Bowden as likely to be post-Roman: so it would be connected, and perhaps integrated to the Romance-speaking people who lived in the neo-Latin Nis-Skopje area of southern Serbia and northern Macedonia:
                                Can ideas and approaches current in mainstream archaeology be made to work in the conservative world of classical archaeology? This volume seeks to explore theoretical frameworks, methodology and field practice suited to the late antique Mediterranean. Broad themes such as long-term change, topography, the economy and social life are covered, but in terms of specific issues and evidential problems currently being tackled by scholars of late antiquity. This book will be useful to students and researchers seeking to enrich their approaches to Mediterranean historical archaeology and to anyone wishing to possess an overview of the current state of late antique archaeology.


                                One of the most interesting books about the "neo-Latin" presence in Serbia and Macedonia was written at the end of the nineteenth century by Sir Arthur Evans:


                                In this book (Sir Arthur Evans was not linked to any Vlach or Romanian "nationalism") it is clearly declared that in the Middle Ages (and until some centuries after 1000 AD) there was a pretty large population of Vlach/Romance-speakers who survived the invasions of the Dinaric Alps, from Croatia and Bosnia, to Serbia and Macedonia.

                                It is stated on page 31:

                                "Politically the country outside the limits of the still Roman coast-towns was by Constantine (Porphyrogenitus)'s time in the hands of Slavonic Zupans, but side by side with the dominant race the older inhabitants of the land continued to inhabit the Dinaric glens and Alpine pastures.

                                The relics of the Roman provincials who survived the Slavonic conquest of Illyricum were divided, in Dalmatia at all events, into two distinct classes, the citizens of the coast-towns, who retained their municipal and ecclesiastical institutions and something of Roman civilization under the aegis of Byzantium, and the Alpine population of the interior, the descendants for the most part of Romanized Illyrian clansmen recruited by the expropriated coloni of the municipia, or at least that part of them who had been forced to give up fixed agricultural pursuits for a semi-nomad pastoral life.

                                Both classes spoke the Latin language, approaching, in various stages of degradation, the Romance variety still spoken by the Rouman population of parts of Macedonia and the Danubian provinces; and both were indiscriminately spoken of by their Slavonic neighbours as Vlachs, or Mavrovlachs: Romans, or Black Romans (Morlachs)."
                                Last edited by Carlin; 02-02-2020, 08:24 AM.

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