Origins of Ancient Greece

[George S.]

At the risk of repeating myself the greeks were wannames & they didn't know what they were throughout history that's why they had many names greece was not one of them only that the owers that be gave it to them in 1832.
Danians, dorians,achaeans, hellenes,romaoi.greeks or greece.Now they are telling the world they are MACEDONIANS.Guys you don;t know who the FUCK you are stop lying to yourselves you are nothing but impostors ,thieves,gypsies,you are everything vile under the sun.You can't decide on your own identity let allone Macedonias name.The reason for that is you want macedonia to stop using it's rightfull name.If you think you are going to stop macedonia think again as in 1944 the state republic of macedonia is a world registered bame.Its ergo,its ipso facto.You can't change it by calling them slavs .Slavs they are not or any other prefix.Also you actually aren't a party to the name as macedonia is a sovereign state & what does greek hold a province that came into exixtence after the kutlesh star was found.You have no basis for your claims & Macedonia has overwhelming support in recognition of their constitutional name around the world.So really there is nothing you can do to force macedonia to change her name.

[Carlin]

Seeing as we’re talking about self identifying, here is one for SOM & Napolean. I read ur earlier posts regarding quotes from Herodotus. Can u please strip this quote down showing the inconsistencies in it or better still, can u please show/quote a reliable source that debunks & falsifies it. The quote by Herodotus I’m referring to is this one below.
"Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Greece; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Greece change her freedom for slavery."

(From the speech of Alexander I of Macedon when he was admitted to the Olympic games, Herodotus, "Histories", 9.45)

I'm not sure what relevance this quote "has" to you or other (modern) Greeks. Even if it can be proven without doubt that Alexander I was of Hellenic descent, the Macedonian Royal House went extinct by 200-100 B.C. - as reported and testified by Polybius in his Histories.

The point being:
- The Macedonian Royal House went extinct long time ago and left no heirs. There were many claimants for the throne of Macedon, in Roman times, but these 'pretenders' were rejected as illegitimate usurpers.
- What do ancient worlds and civilizations have in common with the modern world?
- More importantly, why do you (or modern Greek scholarship) in general, take quotes out of context and interpret passages as you see fit? Do political and cultural realities of the time mean little or nothing? Even prior to Alexander's conquests many peoples, especially members of high society and aristocracy spoke Hellenic and respected and loved Hellenic culture as their own. Shouldn't the Thracians, Phrygians, Carians, and Jews be considered "Hellenes" as well then?
- Why do you refuse to think with your head and ignore other passages from Herodotus? Do his statements and testimony that Ionian Hellenes were all of barbarian descent (Pelasgians) mean anything? Should we forget that Athenians were once Pelasgic-speakers, and adopted Hellenic speech (most likely for political and cultural purposes), according to Herodotus? If you accept H. testimony of Alexander I of Macedon, do you also accept his testimony that Dorians (Dorian chieftains) were of EGYPTIAN descent?

[Carlin]

At the risk of repeating myself the greeks were wannames & they didn't know what they were throughout history that's why they had many names greece was not one of them only that the owers that be gave it to them in 1832.
Danians, dorians,achaeans, hellenes,romaoi.greeks or greece.Now they are telling the world they are MACEDONIANS.Guys you don;t know who the FUCK you are stop lying to yourselves you are nothing but impostors ,thieves,gypsies,you are everything vile under the sun.You can't decide on your own identity let allone Macedonias name.The reason for that is you want macedonia to stop using it's rightfull name.If you think you are going to stop macedonia think again as in 1944 the state republic of macedonia is a world registered bame.Its ergo,its ipso facto.You can't change it by calling them slavs .Slavs they are not or any other prefix.Also you actually aren't a party to the name as macedonia is a sovereign state & what does greek hold a province that came into exixtence after the kutlesh star was found.You have no basis for your claims & Macedonia has overwhelming support in recognition of their constitutional name around the world.So really there is nothing you can do to force macedonia to change her name.

Here's a quote, word for word, from the link below:

As it is clearly obvious, in a country whose people knew that the three quarters of its nation continued to live in subjugation, such a distortion of History bore serious national dangers. And why shouldn’t it, when Korais (one of the “founding fathers” of the modern Greek state) had opened the way for the acceptance of such a theory, in his attempt to ‘illuminate’ the subjugated Hellenes with words such as: “The nation is a corpse being devoured by crows. The homeland is dead.....from the time that Philippos had trodden on us, and up to 1453.” 18 It is fortunate that the Slavomacedonians of Skopje have not yet discovered Korais.....

To be absolutely precise, Korais was not even fond of the term “Hellene”. In his famous “Dialogue between two Greeks” (1805), he wrote: “So, one of these two things (‘Hellene’ or ‘Greek’) is the proper name of the nation. I approved of the term ‘Greek’, because that is how all of the enlightened nations of Europe refer to us.” And further down: “Not only should we be deemed inhuman, but also foolish in this matter, if we were to prefer the name of the Romans instead of the name ‘Greeks’”, to conclude: “Whomsoever calls me a Roman from now on, I will look upon him as my enemy. From this day on, I am a Greek.” 19

The term “Greek” - as pointed out by prof. John Romanides and as we shall examine in more detail in chapter 7 – is a national name that was bestowed upon us by the “enlightened” nations of Europe in the 8th century, at a time when they were still engulfed in the deepest darkness of their History. Unfortunately, a conclusive study of the obscure role of Korais in the shaping of the neo-Roman identity still awaits its author.... As for poor, afflicted Hellas, after everything that we said up to now, it becomes obvious that the borders of 1830 were by no means a coincidence, as they corresponded to the exact borders of ancient Hellas, as seen by foreigners and their local mimics. The acceptance of the name “Hellenes” had provided the necessary ideological alibi to all those who had envisioned a tiny Hellas, within the bounds of 1830...

http://www.oodegr.com/english/biblia/romiosyni/kef1.htm#_Toc158748531

[George S.]

How come this idiot Panmervis is being tolerated here ,why don't admin ban him he has insulted & shown disrespect here?Also he has dared to be banned what an idiot.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

How come this idiot Panmervis is being tolerated here ,why don't admin ban him he has insulted & shown disrespect here?

george, pan macedonians are a diaspora myth and i can eat them up without even breaking a sweat ..

MACEDONIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM - LONG LIVE OUR GLORIOUS MACEDONIA - YouTube

Pan Macedonians have very similar goals as the UMD (2025) .. discuss privately in the comfort of your own homes

[George S.]

mk your missing my pointthe guy should be banned for insulting us .He has shown the same disrespect as his greek govt

[Soldier of Macedon]

Now, while you're thinking about this, I will show u some very credible quotes from one of Eugine Borza’s books...

Borza is a professor of ancient history, not modern ethnology. And from what I have seen he doesn't hold the position of modern Greeks (with respect to ancient Macedonians) in high regard either.

Seeing as we’re talking about self identifying, here is one for SOM & Napolean. I read ur earlier posts regarding quotes from Herodotus. Can u please strip this quote down showing the inconsistencies in it or better still, can u please show/quote a reliable source that debunks & falsifies it. The quote by Herodotus I’m referring to is this one below.
"Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Greece; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Greece change her freedom for slavery."

(From the speech of Alexander I of Macedon when he was admitted to the Olympic games, Herodotus, "Histories", 9.45)

Seeing as you like using Borza as a reference, here are his thoughts on a topic that he actually does possess some knowledge in:

"The theme of the Olympic and Plataea incidents are the same: "I am Alexander, a Greek" which seems to be the main point. The more credible accounts of Alexander at Tempe and at Athens do not pursue this theme; they state Alexander's activities without embellishment or appeal to prohellenism. Moreover, the insistence that Alexander is a Greek, and descendant from Greeks, rubs against the spirit of Herodotus 7.130, who speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission--a perfect opportunity for Herodotus to point out that the Macedonians were a non Greek race ruled over by Greek kings, something he nowhere mentions."

"In sum, it would appear that Olympia and Plataea incidents---when taken together with the tale of the ill--fated Persian embassy to Amyntas' court in which Alexander proclaims the Greek descent of the royal house--are part of Alexander's own attempts to integrate himself into the Greek community during the postwar period. They should be discarded both because they are propaganda and because they invite suspicion on the general grounds outlined above."

I have copied this entire thread & will be pasting it on my future blog.......

The internet has no laws that regulate stupidity. There are several blogs run by people who are anti-Macedonian. One more will make no difference.

[George S.]

Definitely on stupidity when it comes to N Makervis.Can he answer me why was aristotle banished from Athens if he was Greek.The greeks made a distinction they banished him because he was non greek he was macedonian!.Also there are lots of instances where clearly the Macedonians had their own mother tounge & preferred to use it in preference to greek.Macedonian was unintelligble to greeks .So this claim about the macedonians ONLY speaking greek because they were greek is a whole lot of BS.THere is ample evidence to conclude that the macedonias had a mother tounge.I think Borza makes a valid point about that.

[damian]

Pamaveris was very disrepectful. The people on this forum are very well educated and informed. There is all kinds of evidence to support the fact that Macedonia has its own history.

[damian]

I'm not sure what relevance this quote "has" to you or other (modern) Greeks. Even if it can be proven without doubt that Alexander I was of Hellenic descent, the Macedonian Royal House went extinct by 200-100 B.C. - as reported and testified by Polybius in his Histories.

The point being:
- The Macedonian Royal House went extinct long time ago and left no heirs. There were many claimants for the throne of Macedon, in Roman times, but these 'pretenders' were rejected as illegitimate usurpers.
- What do ancient worlds and civilizations have in common with the modern world?
- More importantly, why do you (or modern Greek scholarship) in general, take quotes out of context and interpret passages as you see fit? Do political and cultural realities of the time mean little or nothing? Even prior to Alexander's conquests many peoples, especially members of high society and aristocracy spoke Hellenic and respected and loved Hellenic culture as their own. Shouldn't the Thracians, Phrygians, Carians, and Jews be considered "Hellenes" as well then?
- Why do you refuse to think with your head and ignore other passages from Herodotus? Do his statements and testimony that Ionian Hellenes were all of barbarian descent (Pelasgians) mean anything? Should we forget that Athenians were once Pelasgic-speakers, and adopted Hellenic speech (most likely for political and cultural purposes), according to Herodotus? If you accept H. testimony of Alexander I of Macedon, do you also accept his testimony that Dorians (Dorian chieftains) were of EGYPTIAN descent?

And thats a political rhetorical speech Alexander is giving it doesnt mean he is telling the truth.

[damian]

Thats some excellent stuff on the controversial aspect of ancient greece origins.

Some primary source quotes...

















Furthermore...

In regards to 'Black Athena', it's author Martin Bernal believes that ancient Greece evolved as a result of Egyptian (Danaos), Phoenician (Kadmos), and Anatolian (Pelops) invasion and colonisation over the indigenous Pelasgian population. This theory was also widely believed by the ancient Greeks themselves as evidenced by the above qoutes. Bernal also states that unfortunately, the German, English and French scolars of the 18th century fabricated the racist 'European' 'Aryan' origin for ancient Greek civilisation that is still currently taught today, thus denying ancient Greece's true Afro-Asiatic roots.

[damian]

George, now ur starting to be rude & offensive just like MK but that's ok, it's ur privilege to be this way.

BTW, I'm not Pontian & I have already shown LP & the rest here where my grandfather is from in post #78 page 8. I wrote it in such a simple way & u still didn't understand it yet I'm the one that's slow?

So you are from the Aegean islands and you think you have the right to tell people in Macedonia things who dont even speak your language as their mother tongue? Talk about being flippant.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Pamaveris was very disrepectful. The people on this forum are very well educated and informed. There is all kinds of evidence to support the fact that Macedonia has its own history.

Macedonia does have its own history. But not all people on this forum are educated, or well informed for that matter. Those that aren't but speak as if they are can quite often be counter-productive and unnecessarily make knuckleheads like "Pamaveris" look better than they really are.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

mk your missing my pointthe guy should be banned for insulting us .He has shown the same disrespect as his greek govt

George, the only reason he is/was here is because he's very bored with malakasontheweb .. dead end.

[Louis]

Makedonska_Kafana
Thanks for the link on anal sex. Actually it was full of useful information.