The Macedonian Cause

[Risto the Great]

I am bringing you the voices of the Macedonians the new opinion is about the national symbols to be defined for use in the text.

Yes. The symbols! The symbols!

16 rays
8 rays (controversial but just as historically significant IMO)
Lion

Enshrined in our identity. And not the property of any one political party.

[Risto the Great]

The full and unreserved respect of, and the support for, the Rights of all people of non-Macedonian descent living in Macedonia and around the world, who share a reciprocal full and unreserved respect for the Macedonian people, their homeland and their state.

Excellent wording. Although I think "Rights" needs a quick definition. UN Charter etc.

1) the unchangeable national, ethno-cultural and historic name of the Republic of Macedonia

Let us not forget it is our Constitutional name as well:

1) the unchangeable national, ethno-cultural and historic name of Macedonia
2) the unchangeable Constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia

It has only been a Republic for a little while. We need to distinguish between the 2 names.

[Risto the Great]

Pelister, 100% correct with the prior to 1913 reference.

We (unfortunately) need to address the minorities in Macedonia in one way or another. They were dealt with in every one of our uprisings.

Do we need to even mention Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria? ... should we just refer to the adjoining countries that shared the spoils of a partitioned Macedonia. They are not worthy of our mention.

I still believe the adjoining countries remain a threat and Albania and Kosovo are not mentioned yet the Macedonian cause should always include skepticism towards all of our neighbouring countries good intentions for Macedonia.

[Bratot]

Excellent wording. Although I think "Rights" needs a quick definition. UN Charter etc.


Let us not forget it is our Constitutional name as well:

1) the unchangeable national, ethno-cultural and historic name of Macedonia
2) the unchangeable Constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia

It has only been a Republic for a little while. We need to distinguish between the 2 names.

The constitutional name is incorporated in the term- national, in my opinion.

Because many of us stil make a mistake and always speaking about the Constitutional name but our name is much more than constitutional thats why I added the ethno-cultural and historic name.

[Risto the Great]

Historically it has never been Republic of Macedonia, hence the need for distinguishing the two in my opinion.

[Rogi]

I saw this on the Kajgana forum where after Bratot's post, they're discussing this definition...

Does the term "Republic of" limit Macedonia to always being a republic, and does that limit the definition of the cause from being 'timeless'?

For example, what if the Macedonian people wanted to live in a Kingdom, i.e. the Kingdom of Macedonia?

Or if in future unforseen events were caused which led to unification of geographical Macedonia into the 'Federation of Macedonia' and so on...

Just a consideration. Your thoughts?

[Risto the Great]

This is why there is a need for distinguishing between the Republic and any other historical/future form. Best left as "Macedonia".

[Pelister]

There is also the Macedonian Christian Tradition - very important piece of information, because the fault lines in our history centre around Sveta Gora, and who owns the christian tradition there. The Greek churhces have been "at war" over who owns the rights to this tradition, because most things were written in Macedonian, not Greek, and most of the monks were Macedonians, not Greeks. There is evidence for this, provided by Nicholas Oikonomides - yes, the same guy who talked about a "secret Macedonian language" shortly before he died visiting Greece under mysterious circumstances. The Greeks were trying to shut this guy up - it was a political assasination against a historian.

[Risto the Great]

The Macedonian Christian Tradition as evolved from the Ohrid Archbishopric and more is a very important point Pelister. Good one.

[Rogi]

Yes that is a very good point.

Any suggestions on wording that still makes it inclusive and not exclusive of non-religious or non-Christian Orthodox Macedonians?

[Risto the Great]

Yes that is a very good point.

Any suggestions on wording that still makes it inclusive and not exclusive of non-religious or non-Christian Orthodox Macedonians?

An interesting point.
But to be real, the Macedonian cause we are talking about is quite exclusive. It relates to Macedonians being defined by (amongst other things) their belonging to Macedonian Orthodox Christianity.

The Macedonian Orthodox tradition stemming from the apostle Paul upon his calling to Macedonia through to its spiritual peak in the Ohrid Archbishopric.

If someone chooses not to believe, they still understand the significance of the above statement.

[Rogi]

There are arguments against that, for example, Bogomilism began in Macedonia by Macedonians... the wording should be precise and definite, but very well thought out.

[Risto the Great]

I know what you mean, but can I suggest to you that the ones who want to fight for (eg.) Bogomilism, can define a cause they are happy with. We are talking about a cause that reflects the majority of ethnic Macedonians.

I would be willing to support a cause that mostly aligns itself with my cause such that the differences are not detrimental to my cause. For example, Islam does not even accept nationality from what I understand about it. We can't really be helping Macedonian muslims if we are to be honest with ourselves.

... which is the reason why you left religion out of the cause in the first place I would imagine.

I have had intense discussions with Macedonians (in Macedonia) about being Macedonians. And religion is a HUGE determinant.

[Risto the Great]

Has this thread received the Hitler curse?

[Rogi]

I bloody well hope not. Anyone able to come up with a well-worded way to include the upholding of the Macedonian Christian tradition in the definition of the cause?