Ventilator

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  • DIMO
    Junior Member
    • Apr 2010
    • 68

    Ventilator

    As soon as i see that new flag i feel division, the only reason i respect it is because the macedonian soldiers died under it in 2001, but i still cant except it.
    OBEDINETA MAKEDONIJA
  • Daniel the Great
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2009
    • 1084

    #2
    Wow Dimo i see you like to express things that are in you mind.
    Well i have to say i agree in a way with what you have said, the old flag looks more real in the sense it is our real flag first of all and it was the first flag we adopted when we gained independence from Yugoslavia, so its hard just to forget about the old flag.
    But we have now accepted the new flag, it is a very good looking flag,
    and it is the new sun of liberty, novo sonce na sloboda.


    :rmacedonia


    ______________________
    Macedonian and proud

    Comment

    • julie
      Senior Member
      • May 2009
      • 3869

      #3
      The old flag for me
      I dont accept "negotations " enforced by HellAss
      "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

      Comment

      • Makedonetz
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2010
        • 1080

        #4
        when the flag was changed i was like WTF were not japonski
        Makedoncite se borat
        za svoite pravdini!

        "The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria,Greece or Serbia can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but not a good Macedonian"
        - Goce Delchev

        Comment

        • fyrOM
          Banned
          • Feb 2010
          • 2180

          #5
          Actually we kind of are Makedonetz. I think it was on MTO or www.mazedonium.org I saw a clip about ancient Macedonian shields. Some had the 16 point sun symble while others had 8 like the currant flag while others had swirling suns. So I guess we kind of are the empire of the sun in the west.

          Comment

          • Makedonetz
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2010
            • 1080

            #6
            Ozimak i guess we are the originators than!
            Makedoncite se borat
            za svoite pravdini!

            "The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria,Greece or Serbia can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but not a good Macedonian"
            - Goce Delchev

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15658

              #7
              If we chose the new flag, I would have no problem with it.
              I like it but cannot say it inspires me in the same way as the old one.
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

              Comment

              • Frank
                Banned
                • Mar 2010
                • 687

                #8
                There still remains a lack of Knowledge that the 8 ray Macedonian Sun burst is invented when it clearly is not.

                But I understand being forced to change your Countrys adobted Flag is unacceptable and not to be forgottn by EVERYONE.

                Comment

                • BigMak
                  Banned
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 209

                  #9
                  An evolutionary change of the flag would have been acceptable, but a forced change is wrong.

                  Im for the old flag.

                  Comment

                  • blackcactus
                    Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 242

                    #10
                    Personally I would never call the RoM flag a "ventilator", I'll leave that for the greeks

                    Soldiers have died under that flag, and it's symbolism is relevant to Macedonian history as explained by others, I'll not belittle it in any way

                    But saying that, RoM choose the 16 ray star at independence, we were forced to change (which is disgraceful to both the Macedonians and the Greeks for different reasons), I would be glad to see it reinstated as the flag of Macedonia, it represents us in a deeply psychological way, all Macedonians love that flag/symbol, it's universally uniting
                    The one who tells the story rules the World - Hopi proverb

                    “Your highness, when I said that you are like a stream of bat's piss, I only meant that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark” - Monty Python

                    Comment

                    • indigen
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2009
                      • 1558

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Frank View Post
                      There still remains a lack of Knowledge that the 8 ray Macedonian Sun burst is invented when is not.
                      I think your view is mere wishful thinking and not what really happened. It has also been clearly stated by its creators that it has no ethnic, cultural or historic significance for Macedonians. in fact, there was info published back in 1995 (Today Denes paper, Australia) linking it to an exact (or close) replica of a Soviet Red Army Flag of WWII era.

                      The following is a valid response (taken from kajgana forum):

                      Neznam kako da gi okvalifikuvam vakvite komentari:
                      Tesenje,
                      Opravduvanje,
                      Samozalazuvanje ili nesto cetvrto...

                      Varijanta na kamenite crtezi moze da bide samo togas koga tie ke bile zemeni vo predvid koga se kreiralo znameto , a ne koga posle 10 godini na neko mu teknalo "E vidi naseto zname e slicno na crtezite ..."
                      Koga go menuvaa znameto SDSM ne se spomnuvaa ni kameni ni bakraci, tuku se izmisli nesto sto ama bas na nikoj vo drzavata ne mu znacese nesto, nitu pak imase nekakva simbolika...Tuku ete taka kolku da ima nesto i da lici kolku tolku na sonce...
                      But I understand being forced to change your Country's adopted Flag is unacceptable and not to be forgotten by EVERYONE.
                      It CLEARLY represents CAPITULATION - NO IFS AND NO BUTS!
                      Thus it IS a symbol of shame and defeat - poraz and in no way can it arouse any pride in sane and thinking Macedonians, IMO!

                      Comment

                      • indigen
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2009
                        • 1558

                        #12
                        1995 responses to the capitualtion and signing of the "Accord" with the 1st party

                        Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
                        From: Slavko Mangovski
                        Date: 1995/09/09
                        Subject: Rezolucija


                        UNITED MACEDONIANS,
                        P.O. Box 3641,
                        Postal Station M.I.P, Markham,
                        Ont, L3R 6G9

                        REZOLUCIJA

                        Donesena na 7.9.1995 g. na prosireniot sostanok na Organizacijata Obedineti Makedonci i site makedonski crkveni opshtini, selski spomagatelni drushtva i poedinci koi ziveat i rabotat vo Kanada i Amerika odrzan vo prostoriite na MPC Sv. Kliment Ohridski vo Toronto a vo vrska so prevzemenite cekori na Vladata i Pretsedatelot na Republika Makedonija za promena na znameto i ustavot na drzavata Republika Makedonija vo namerno predizvikan spor so Grcija a prema informaciite i izjavata na na ministerot za nadvoresni raboti Stevo Crvenkovski, Makedonskata komuna vo Toronto na sostanokot odluci:

                        1. I pokraj dolgovremenoto ponudeno dogovaranje od strana na Republika Makedonija za nakaradnite baranja na Grcija za promena na imeto na Republika Makedonija so nekoi opisni dodavki resitelno se sprotivstavuvame na bilo kakvi razgovori za nekakva promena na istoriskoto ime MAKEDONIJA.

                        2. Znameto na Republika Makedonija, sesnaesetzracnoto Sonce go pretstavuva istoriskoto minato pod koe zname makedonija rastela, se razvivala, se sirela i pobeduvala a vo posledno vreme obnoveno po legalen pat so zakonska procedura vo Makedonskiot Parlament barame da ostane i da ne se menuva bidejki toa e neprocenlivo nasledstvo i sovremen Makedonski nacionalen simbol.

                        3. Razgovorot okolu promena na ustavot na Drzavata pretstavuva nevidena navreda od tugja strana, mesanje vo vnatresnite raboti na R. Makedonija i gubenje na pravoto na matichnata drzava da se grizi za pravata na Makedoncite od okupiranite delovi na Makedonija e nacionalna navreda i nevideno predavstvo na sopstveniot narod.

                        Isprakjame delegacija vo R. Makedonija koja ke mu ja predade Rezolucijata na Pretsedatelot na R. Makedonija Kiro Gligorov.
                        Delegacijata ke ja predvodi pretsedatelot na Organizacijata Obedineti Makedonci g. Vlade Grozdanovski.

                        Ovaa Rezolucija e ispratena do:
                        Pretsedatelot Kiro Gligorov;
                        Pretsedatelot na Sobranieto Stojan Andov;
                        Pretsedatelot na Vladata Branko Crvenkovski;
                        Do liderite na opozicionite partii;
                        Do sredstvata za javni informacii;
                        Do site Makedonski asocijacii vo Amerika, Kanada, Evropa i Avstralija.

                        Toronto, 7.9.1995 g.
                        Pretsedatel na OOM
                        Vlade Grozdanovski

                        Comment

                        • indigen
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2009
                          • 1558

                          #13
                          Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
                          From: Slavko Mangovski
                          Date: 1995/09/08
                          Subject: Interests or who gets what

                          The new Graeco-Macedonian (actually Graeco-"fyromian") "friendship" treaty
                          merits thorough analysys because of its monumental significance for the
                          Macedonian nation. The treaty threatens a definite split among the
                          Macedonians themselves so we have to see
                          who gets what from it and whose interests are best served.

                          The EU
                          Benefits:
                          Clear benefit and a loud "sigh!"
                          Less worries for the Balkans.
                          No need to prosecute Greece because of the embargo and therefore liberation
                          from a major embaressement.
                          Losses: none.

                          USA
                          Benefits:
                          Clear benefit and a loud "sigh!
                          Less worries for the Balkans.
                          Great satisfaction for the Greek lobby and therefore a lot of votes for Clinton.
                          Losses: none.

                          GREECE
                          Major benefit.
                          Almost maximum demands met.
                          Sense of accomplishment and new national pride.
                          Clear road for placing the Macedonian Sun on it's flag and becoming the
                          legitimate heir of ancient Macedonia and everything Macedonian.
                          With it's identity destroyed the Macedonian minority is no longer a problem.
                          The name issue to be discussed "in the future" but excellent chances of
                          winning again.
                          Possibility to re-introduce the embargo at any time to make it's argument
                          more convincing.
                          Absolute vindication of its stands in front of the international public.
                          Economic access to MK's territory.
                          Revival of the Northern Greece economy.
                          Losses: none.

                          MK
                          Benefits:
                          Possibility to go on vacation and shopping to Greece but without using the
                          passport and first applying for visa (will we have again the famous lines
                          in front of the Greek consulate in Skopje with people spending the night in
                          order to be among the first to
                          apply?)
                          Posibility of the exporters to export through Solun therefore saving money.
                          Gaining access to various international bodies and organizations under the
                          name FYROM (somebody will have to tell us what the benefits will be).
                          Appearance of Greek products in our shops.
                          Obtaining loans from foreign countries and organizations (which will have
                          to be repaid with interest) with wide misuse by the somewhat corrupt
                          government.
                          Economic developement (similar to Bulgaria and Albania which *DO* have
                          access to the Solun port).

                          Losses:
                          Loss of our identity.
                          Without ancient Macedonian heritage automatic acquring of the status of
                          "Slavs from Macedonia" or Slavomacedonians, as presently in Australia.
                          Global introduction of the "Australian solution" and international pressure
                          on Greece to yield and accept the derivative of the name "Macedonia" i.e.
                          "Slavomacedonia."
                          Definite split among the Macedonians and start of ferocious infighting
                          further weakening the nation.
                          Various kinds of bugaromans, serbomans, greacomans, yugomans etc. emboldened
                          by the new developements.

                          I invite others to contribute to the list so that we can make a complete
                          analysys. We are all intelligent and rational people and should act in our
                          best interests otherwise we risk being called idiots.

                          I wrote the above in English in the hope of reaching a larger number of
                          Macedonians.

                          Slavko

                          Comment

                          • indigen
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2009
                            • 1558

                            #14
                            Some more reponses from 1995 from well known activists

                            Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
                            From: Chris Angelkov
                            Date: 1995/09/08
                            Subject: MACEDONIAN CAPITULATION IN NEGOTIATIONS

                            Dear Fellow Macedonians and Friends,

                            I have been shocked by the recent unexpected developments in the dispute
                            between Macedonia and Greece. It would appear that the Government of the
                            Republic of Macedonia is seriously compromising Macedonia's position by
                            making monumental concessions for very little in return. After all, this
                            agreement does not include Greece's acceptance of the name "Republic of
                            Macedonia" which will remain unresolved. When one considers that this whole
                            dispute centres upon this name then it is ludicrous to suggest that this
                            impending agreement is of any use or longevity.

                            Macedonia is about to make the very humiliating and neglectful concessions of:

                            (1) changing its flag to remove the Ancient Sun of Alexander the Great and
                            (2) changing its constitution to remove any reference to the Republic of
                            Macedonia' responsibilty to fellow Macedonians in Neighbouring countries
                            and abroad.

                            What is Macedonia going to receive in return?
                            (1) The lifting of an illegal economic blockade by Greece against Macedonia.
                            (2) Greece's lifting of its veto against the entry of Macedonia into
                            various European and international institutions.
                            (3) The promise of financial assistance from the European Union and
                            Germany in particular.

                            For all intents and purposes Greece's blockade against Macedonia has been a
                            resounding success. It has managed to change our flag, get assurances from
                            the Macedonian Government that it will abandon any responsibilty towards
                            Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia and has still stopped us from being
                            universally recognized under our correct name of "Republic of Macedonia".

                            I can only feel shame and sorrow that the Republic of Macedonia has not been
                            able to negotiate a compromise from which we can say that something has been
                            conceded but something even more significant has been gained. In fact
                            nearly everything has been conceded for nothing in return! And what is left
                            in the Macedonian cupboard to negotiate with when the name issue comes up
                            for resolution in the future? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

                            It is about time that the Government of the Republic of Macedonia took a
                            long hard look at itself and admitted that it does not have the personell to
                            negotiate at the level required in international fora. For too long we have
                            been naive and reluctant to show any independent line of thought, waiting
                            on other countries and international organizations to assist us or to
                            dictate to us (a la U.S.A.). The one outstanding and world renouned
                            negotiator that we do have, Dr Vasil Tupurkovski, has been sidelined. Is
                            the RoM so well endowed with master negotiators that Tupurkovski's skills
                            and experience is not needed?

                            Fellow Macedonians, I can only hope that the deal which has been struck
                            contains a lot more positive aspects for Macedonia than we currently know
                            about but I am not confident that this is the case. I know that from the
                            comfort of Australia, Canada and the U.S.A. it is easy to be critical and
                            that we do not fully appreciate the hardship and instability that our people
                            in RoM are experiencing from the Greek and U.N. imposed Yugoslav Blockades
                            and that the Government of the Republic of Macedonia finds itself in a very
                            difficult situation. However, I am afraid that our naivety and tactical
                            errors in negotiation will haunt us for a long time to come.

                            Chris Angelkov
                            Perth
                            Western Australia



                            Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
                            From: Lubi Uzunovski <[email protected]>
                            Date: 1995/09/07
                            Subject: REZILOK

                            Somebody help me out here. We get a report from the Macedonian
                            Foreign Office indicating that an agreement has been reached between
                            Macedonia and greece. Apparently there are no winners or losers and
                            the opposition parties have been asked to refrain from spreading
                            misinformation.

                            Hello, good morning, earth calling gligorov!

                            Mr. gligorov, Mr. tsrvenkovski and Mr. gaber are the ones who are
                            causing this misinformation to be spread. If an agreement has
                            been concluded with greece, (and obviously one has) then why is it
                            that the president of the Republic has not yet made a statement to
                            the citizens? Is he afraid? He should be. It is my meagre
                            understanding that in a democracy the tail does not wag the dog.
                            Gligorov must do as the citizens mandate him to, and that does not
                            include negotiating away our identity.

                            No one from gligorov's inner sanctum has come out to deny that
                            the flag has not been sold to the greeks. But who's flag is it?
                            It's not the personal property of gligorov, nor tsrvenkovski
                            nor any of the puppets at the Macedonian foreign office. What
                            will they sell next? After all, the precedent for selling the
                            Macedonian state symbols has now been set, only the quantity
                            is left to be regulated. This is the reward given to greece by
                            gligorov and his incompetent negotiating team.

                            My position is simple. Gligorov and his puppets no longer have
                            any shred of credibility. When the Macedonian flag is handed over
                            to the greeks, I want gligorov's head to be be wrapped inside it,
                            still bleeding. As for the amendments to the Macedonian constitution.
                            Ke se prerodi gligorov pred nie dai ostaime nashite vo grtsia. I am
                            of the opinion that he has deviated too far from the mandate given to
                            him and is now causing confusion and disunity amongst the Macedonian
                            people. If he couldn't cut the mustard, he should have quit. He is
                            truly a man of no class. I strongly believe he should removed upon
                            the signing of this "deal".

                            Can this act be seen as anything but High Treason. Certainly not by
                            the eyes inside of my head. I wonder if John Major would have sold
                            the Union Jack to the greeks. What country in the world would sell
                            their flag? Am I stretching the envelope. Ovoi choak treba da e
                            k'lnat. Kao ne mue stram? Mene mie stram za neo, ovie se detinski
                            raboti. Marifeto e Makedonskio identitet da ne se zagubi. Pa ovoi,
                            bash toa go prodava? It's hypocritical of the foreign office to
                            imply that there are no winners and no losers given that the souvlaki
                            sticks are still sticking out of their asses. Macedonia is big
                            enough to fit over two million people, but its obviously not large
                            enough for gligorov's ego. Do you think he has our new name picked
                            already? Perhaps it will be gligorovia, and we can use his underwear
                            as our flag.

                            Lubi



                            newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
                            From: Josif Grezlovski
                            Date: 1995/09/09
                            Subject: Re: MACEDONIAN CAPITULATION IN NEGOTIATIONS


                            :: Mr. Angelkov!
                            :: Mi se svide, bendisa tvojot post; no samo edna malka zamerka ke bide
                            :: potrebna: Topurkovski ke go smeneshe nasheto ime mnogu oddavna, beshe
                            :: spremen da gi zadovoli svoite stranski kolegi ushte vo Viena.
                            :: Shto se odnesuva do deneshnata "stramota" ili kako Lubi ja nareche
                            :: "rezilak" jas sum totalno razocharan od se shto gledam. Se si imav edna
                            :: budalska idea deka taka-vaka na kraj ke si zadrzhime i zname a i ime.
                            :: Od druga strana neshto mi go mateshe mozokot: Odime da pregovarame
                            :: za shto? Nie ne baravme neshto od nekogo? Nie otidovme da dajme onolku
                            :: kolku ke ni pobaraat. Nie ispadnavme edni obichni KRAVI. Da bevme
                            :: voloi, ajde de, ke se poturkavme malku, a sega sme obichna krava,
                            :: obichna OVCA za sekoj da ne strizhi. Osekjam edna golema duhovna praznina.
                            :: Denes, dojde den, da jas se chuvstvuvam porazen: od edni skapani Grci.
                            :: Cel zivot ne porazuvaat, ni go "fakjaat patot", ni prechat, ne drzat dolu,
                            :: ne sramat, pleme mu nivno, a nashite od "Slavo Makedonija" ke se pretepaat
                            :: za koj da se spushti vo Grcija na "odmor", za koga ke se vratat nazad
                            :: da se gordeat so svojata Grchka vakancija. Za gabe si go jadime rizikot
                            :: ovde. Tie od tamu ni se smeat deka sme bile "Usijani glavi".
                            :: Ochekuvajte da se vikame neshto sosema drugo vo najbliska idnina.
                            :: Najmnogu shto mi e maka e toa shto ke go gledam gnevot na niskite i
                            :: crni grci....
                            :: Josif


                            Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
                            From: Luben Todorouski
                            Date: 1995/09/15
                            Subject: Re: MAYBE THE GREEKS HAVE A POINT ....

                            > On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, M Petkovski wrote:

                            > > > Slavko:
                            > > > Are those passions weakened because of the $100.00 or because Govt.
                            > > > discouragement of nationalism? It doesn't seem that Bulgaria and/or
                            > > > Albania standard is much highre yet I don't see THEM giving up their flag.

                            > > Well, when nothing works in a country, the most obvious choice for the
                            > > government - to distract the attention to the real problems - is to
                            > > blame someone else, i.e. to start a nationalist campaign. That is
                            > > exactly what happened in the ex-Yu, and what is probably happening
                            > > in Bulgaria, Albania, Greece nowadays. The fact that our government
                            > > hasn't played that card yet is one of the few good points (if not
                            > > the only one) about them.

                            > That is a nice theory, Mihail, yet we have to look at the results of such
                            > policies: all the nationalsitic countries like Slovenia (first
                            > independent, on it's way to become Eu member, almost solved its problems
                            > with Italy); Croatia (independent, great future, on its way to solve
                            > disputes with Serbia); Serbia (on its way to get half of Bosnia); Greece
                            > (clear winner as it officially becomes a Greaco-Macedonian state);
                            > Bulgaria and Albania (clear nationalists and moving forward) and
                            > non-nationalistic Macedonia (actually Fyrom, with no identity, on its way to
                            > become kind of Bosnia). Clear results from the "wise" policies of
                            > Gligorov and Co.

                            Few equations:

                            modern state = nation

                            nationalism - the basic ideology of the nation's existance.

                            NO nationalism = NO Nation = NO State = nameless teritory with

                            no indentity and no future (example: FYRM).

                            Zaboravete sto imate uceno na casovite po Marksizam.

                            Procitajte nekoi dr. definicii na Nacionalizmot. Na primer nesto
                            za Garibaldi, prviot opsto poznat Nacionalista ...

                            Ako sakas da unistis zemja togas unisti i go Nacionalniot Indentitet.

                            (Napisano na Makedonski bidejki e nameneto voglavno na tie
                            sto se imaat educirano so 4 casovi na marksizam nedelno)

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              #15
                              Some excellent dialogue from our recent history.
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

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