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Old 09-24-2017, 01:55 PM   #11
Amphipolis
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Well, if anyone can find in Homer the words he's discussing (okko, ethumo, nokar) or can understand which differend words he's misspelling, I'm all ears.

I don't know all ancient words and my imagination has its limits.







==

Last edited by Amphipolis; 09-25-2017 at 01:35 AM.
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:46 PM   #12
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The language of Homer is extremely complicated there are many doubts on scholars who work the translation too.
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Old 10-07-2017, 04:41 AM   #13
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Ok so I skimmed through the translation I posted a link to and I found that there are multiple words that seem to be treated as synonymous with eachother. For example you have the usual gaia for earth but also cthon (χϑὼν). Words translated as king seem to include both variations of ἄναξ and βασιλήων. Ocean seems to be capitalized whenever it's used but other words treated as synonymous include πόντον (ponton) and θαλάσσης (thalasses). In addition to polis another word for city that came up was ἄστεος (asteos)/ἄστυ (asty). Both Zeus (Ζεύς) and Dios (Διός) seem to have been used. ἑταῖροι (hetairoi) was translated as companions (p.85 or 85 and 35 iirc). υἱὸς (yiós) and πάϊς (païs) were both translated as son. ϕάρμαχα (pharmacha) was used once and translated as medicines. I think it was something about fig tree sap.

Regarding the nokar part, he clearly explained the transition:

Quote:
Slavic nok > noke> nokta (Macedonian ноќ (nokj), Slovene noč) which, when analyzed as a conceptual development relating to natural light and the human eye, evolves from the word for eye: okko, oke, oki, occi, oči and the particle не (ne) meaning no. Therefore, we have a simple creation of ne + okko > neokko > nokko > nok. This concept is confirmed in Classical Mythology by the primordial goddess of the night, Noks > Nuks Νύξ.
Given the letter is called upsilon I figure u is a valid interpretation of the letter even if you're more accustomed to it being transliterated as y. I found it written as νὺξ (nýx) like he said. I also found νύχτι (nýkti). I don't think the word was used much overall in the Illiad so it'd be worthwhile to look at the Odyssey for more examples. It's important to note sound changes within and across languages concerning this stuff.

On a related note, it seems Greek went more with the occi and oči variants of eye since I found όσσε (osse), apparently repeated twice when used to note a pair of eyes. Eyeing was ὀσσόμενος (ossomenos) but there was also ὄμματα (ommata), ὀϕϑαλμοὶσιν (ophthalmoisin). Saw was ἲδον (ídon) and εἲδων (eídon). Other words related to eyes were γλαυχῶπις (glauchopis) and βοῶπις (boópis), which suggest opis has something to do with eyes.

I found that ϕρένς (phréns)/ϕρεσὶ (phresi)/ϕρένα (phréna) and θυμῷ (thymo) are treated as synonymous with each other as meaning mind, also being used for soul as ϕρέν (phrén) and θυμῷ (thymo). The version with an e was a more modern variant that led to the word etymology. umo > thumo > thymo > ethymo > etymo

I didn't pay too close attention to the case and tense but it's supposed to be a literal translation and some of those are probably context specific. I can go back to individual sections to note more words down or the context they're used in now that I've had a general look at the whole thing. I think I see why there's a theory that Homer didn't write it all himself.

Last edited by Starling; 10-07-2017 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 10-08-2017, 11:29 AM   #14
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I’m not getting the point. It is implied, I guess, that your people recognize similar words in your language.

As in any language, every Greek word has one or more full or partial synonyms.

Gaia=Earth, ground, land, farm. Chthon has all these meanings too

Thalassa and Pontos are full synonyms (=Sea). Usually Pontos tends to be something bigger than thalassa.

Asty=City. Polis=City and also State, community, country, Political system

Zeus and Dios is the same name in nominative and genitive case

Yios=son, Pais=Child

Pharmakon=Medicine (and similar things like mixture, poison etc)

Hetairos= Companion, comrade, friend etc

Nyx=Night, Nykti is the same word in dative case

Ossa=Omma=Ophthalmos=Eye

Ossomai=Oro= to see

Eidon (not Idon)= I saw (in past tense)

Boopis= Bull-eyes suggests someone with big eyes

Glauchopis suggests someone with light-color, piercing eyes

Phren=diaphragm, heart, soul, mind, judgment etc (in modern Greek it means brake and sound mind)

Thymos=Spirit, soul, life, power, will, anger etc (in modern Greek it means anger)

Thymo (as a verb) = to exacerbate, to irritate, to be angry
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Old 10-08-2017, 05:03 PM   #15
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Of course most languages have words that are synonymous. The thing is that's how a lot of loan words get used. Poetic prose loves synonyms, loan words and metaphors. Rhythm and tone are important parts of a poem, especially if they were originally sung. Gustlars are still around as an ongoing oral tradition in Macedonia, singing epic poetry. In French you get stuff like parking and stationnement, where the first is basically the English word while the second is derived from a Latin word and is used in various ways with french grammatical rules applied to it. English uses station in various ways too but they got it from French rather than the other way around and basically adapted the grammatical rules along with it, such as stationaire > stationary. English in general is full of borrowed terms from all over the place, which is why it has more exceptions than rules regarding grammar.

I noted synonymous words not because they're all necessarily Slavic so much that it's statistically probable that one of the synonymous words was borrowed from another language. It's worth comparing those words to ones with similar meanings in other languages to see if they're related. I found that barbaros is likely tied to the sanskrit barbaras, for example. It's also useful for trying out conceptual linguistics to better understand how those words came to mean those things.

Quote:
Gaia=Earth, ground, land, farm. Chthon has all these meanings too
From what I found Gaia primarily refers to the earth on the surface while cthon refers to the earth underneath, which explains why it was mostly used in relation to the nourishing earth. I'm pretty sure I saw cthon used more generally in ways that don't appear tied to underground. I also found that might be related to Kora, another name for Persephone. Cthon is probably tied to the sanskrit word for earth (ksam). In slavic languages Kora means crust, which in this context would likely be the earth's crust. For Gaia, it seems earlier forms of the name were Gê (Γῆ) and Gã (Γᾶ), which were derived from Ma-ga, a variation of the Mycanean Ma-ka. Maka is similar to Majka, the Macedonian word for mother. I remember finding a couple myths where the Ma/Make/Majka was a primordial goddess in Macedonian myths. Based on this I suspect cthon was the main Greek word before Gaia came in and then they gained connotations of surface/underground.

Quote:
Thalassa and Pontos are full synonyms (=Sea). Usually Pontos tends to be something bigger than thalassa.
I think pontos was used more for river and thalassa for sea but that they were used for both interchangeably. Pontus is the name of a primordial sea god born from Gaia without a consort, though sometimes has Aether as his father. Thalassa is also a sea goddess but with no stated origin. Together hey had Aphrodite, Halia and the Techines, who are said to be the original inhabitants of Rhodes. Thalassa is derived from the Cretan θᾰ́λᾰθθᾰ (thálaththa), which is likely related to ἅλς (háls), meaning salt. It's relatively similar to other words for salt and Thalassa is an old goddess/spirit so it could go either way.

Quote:
Zeus and Dios is the same name in nominative and genitive case

Yios=son, Pais=Child
I find it kinda weird that they're just a case difference rather than the result of dialectal variation. I saw a number of variations of Dios, such as Dii. I don't recall case changes altering the first letter. In any case according to wiktionary Slovak's declensions has Zeus as nominative, Dia as genitive, Diovi as dative, Dia as accusative, Diovi again for locative and Diom for instrumental. There are several other variations of the name: Δάν (Dán) is Aeolic, Δεύς (Deús) is Laconian, Ζάν (Zán)/Ζάς (Zás) is Doric, Θιός (Thiós)/Σιός (Siós) is Boeotian and Τάν (Tán) is Cretan. The Olympians were a pantheon of gods worshiped further north and originally tied to the Danube, so Zeus' name was originally so the Aeolic Dán is likely what the others branched off from.

There was another word for child, something like techos. I'll have to look for it.

Quote:
Hetairos= Companion, comrade, friend etc
I brought up that I found hetairoi in the Illiad because it's an explicitly Macedonian word. Given that its best known use was for the Macedonian elite companion cavalry and that it originated the use of company as a military term, the meaning seems clear enough.

Quote:
Nyx=Night, Nykti is the same word in dative case
Which establishes how latin got noct. Noks > Nuks > Nyx > Nykti > Noct. French has nocce, which is closer to the original nok. Nok > Nokke > Nocce.

Quote:
Ossa=Omma=Ophthalmos=Eye

Ossomai=Oro= to see

Eidon (not Idon)= I saw (in past tense)

Boopis= Bull-eyes suggests someone with big eyes

Glauchopis suggests someone with light-color, piercing eyes
IIRC Idon was I saw while the other was just noted as saw. Minor changes like that are to be expected over time. I was already aware of bull eyes and the relativity of colour terms. I looked up glauchopis and found that it probably originally referred to bright, piercing eyes before gaining the connotation of pallor, hence why it was used to describe Athena. There was something about the way and owl's gaze is described and the connotation of wisdom tied to the term bright-eyed. It's neat how concepts tie together that way.

Quote:
Phren=diaphragm, heart, soul, mind, judgment etc (in modern Greek it means brake and sound mind)

Thymos=Spirit, soul, life, power, will, anger etc (in modern Greek it means anger)

Thymo (as a verb) = to exacerbate, to irritate, to be angry
The brake meaning of modern Greek phren probably came from Latin influences, given french has frein and Italian and Spanish have freno. ψυχή (psyche) was translated as soul, μένος (ménos) as spirit, χῆρι (chíri) as soul and νόος (nόos) as mind. Phrens seemed to be the most common with the most variations, suggesting it's the default. Phren is the one that's tied to anger. It's where frenetic and frenzy came from. It also gave us Schizophrenic. The phrenic nerve is called that because Aristotle believed the mind resided in the heart. Diaphragm is derived from dia-phragma, a partition between the thorax and abdomen. Phonetically similar but different roots. Phragma > fragment. I don't think I saw thymo used to mean anger.
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