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I'm very impressed by both these DNA companies. If you had just presented your results only a few hours earlier I might have preferred to order from the same one. I'll first wait for my results from my-heritage-DNA and see.
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Carlin -What about Acarnina-Aetolia? I have seen some of your posts in the past but can no longer find them. What do you think/know about this region.
It was once named Little Vlachia.Comment
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In any event I don't think you made a mistake.Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
I'd be curious to compare my ancestrydna results with another service.Comment
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Torbeshi in Macedonia - video/debate from 2011 (in Macedonian):
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You personal summary in English?Originally posted by Carlin15 View PostI know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.Comment
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In this debate F. Canoski and S. Ajradinoski are arguing that Torbeshi are ethnic Torbeshi and a separate people, and as such should be granted a status of a separate ethnic community in Rep. of Macedonia (they were also talking about numbers and which areas of the republic they live in; they also admitted how numerous Torbesh villages/communities declared themselves as ethnic Albanians or Turks, out of revolt). The two women in this debate are arguing that Torbeshi are ethnic Macedonians -> Macedonian Muslims.Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View PostLast edited by Carlin; 08-31-2018, 10:48 PM.Comment
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I'm sharing the following links here that are unfortunately neither in English or Macedonian (they are in Serbo-Croatian or Croat-Serbian language). Please let me know if you'd like to read/understand some parts.
Bogomilism and Ethnogenesis of Torbeshi of Kukes Gora, Nazif Dokle
Old Balkan toponymy and anthroponymy of Gora, Sadik Idrizi Aljabak
Aromanian-Vlach traces in Gora, Sadik Idrizi Aljabak
"In Gora, even after linguistic Slavization (which took place during Bulgarian and Serbian rule, from the 10th until 14th c.) old Balkan toponymy and patronymy was preserved, which is mainly Romance, that is Vlach..."
Last edited by Carlin; 08-31-2018, 11:14 PM.Comment
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- The Aromanians were scattered everywhere in kaza Kastoria. This kaza bordered the old Aromanian settlements on Mount Gramos.
Great number of the Christian population in the town of Kastoria was of Aromanian origin. When Victor Bérard visited Kastoria toward the end of the 19th century, Aromanian was spoken or at least understood in every Christian house, which, beyond doubt, indicates the strong Aromanian presence in this town. In the mid-nineteenth century, one of the Greek propaganda leaders in Kastoria, the teacher Anastassios Piheon, reports that the town’s Greek upper class was mainly made up of Aromanian families.
- In the kaza of Katerini, the Aromanians were fairly numerous during the winter season when the Aromanians from Olympus, Mariovo, Ano Vermio, Veria, Edessa (ar. Vudena; mk. Voden), Flambourari and the Grevena area moved down toward Katerini and the coast.
According to Weigand’s statistics, 6000 Aromanians lived in kaza Katerini. According to Vasile Papa Ianuşi, Katerini was a town with 7000 inhabitants, of which half were Aromanian (PAPA IANUŞ, 1904: 41). According to Weigand, Katerini was home to 1500 Aromanians who originated from the Aromanian villages on Mount Olympus (WEIGAND, 1888: 13). Neniţescu provided a figure of about 2800 Aromanian inhabitants of Katerini (NENIŢESCU, 1895: 557).
Anastassios Piheon was born in 1836 in Ohrid, in a Vlach family. According to Bulgarian sources only his father was a Vlach, and his mother a "Bulgarian".
Last edited by Carlin; 09-08-2018, 05:10 PM.Comment
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- In northernmost areas of Macedonia, the Vlach-speakers did not settle at all until 1874, after the construction of the railroad line Skopje-Vranje. The Vlach traders from Kruševo, Bitola, Prilep, Serres, Kavala and Thessaloniki settled in Skopje after 1874 and by the Balkan Wars almost all of the economy in the town was in the hands of the 150 families from Kruševo, among which most prominent were Dicea, Papatheodosi, Crangu, Sapungi, Shcodreanu, Comati, Lazu, Catzavolu and Shcaperda. These Vlachs in Skopje inhabited Vlaško Maalo. The settlement of Vlach tailors, goldsmiths, bankers and hotel owners from Kruševo, Nymfaio, Veles and Malovište in Kumanovo occurred at the same time as the settlement of the Vlachs in Skopje (HÂCIU, 2003: 210-212; ТРПКОСКИ-ТРПКУ, 1986: 91).
- Vlasti was inhabited by Vlachs from Moscopole and Pindus, as well as by Vlachs from the former Episcopal seat Sissani (ПОПОВИЋ, 1937: 42). Hellenised Vlachs from Sissani transferred the Hellenic influence to Vlasti, which led to the hellenisation of more than half the Vlasti population in 1875 (PICOT, 1875: 37). Similar to nearby Siatista, where in 1889-1890 Weigand noted that children did not speak Vlach (WEIGAND, 1895: 129), Vlasti probably encountered the same when the Vlach population ceased using the Vlach language. In 1900, Kanchov recorded 2500 inhabitants in Vlasti, of which he considered 1300 to have been Vlach and 1200 Greek (КЪНЧОВ, 1996: 269). For more details see: ΤΣΙΡΟΣ, 1964.
- The first Vlach settlers in Bitola arrived in the second half of the 18 century, after the collapse of Moscopole. The original Vlach nucleus in the town had consisted of Moscopolitans, followed by unspecified numbers of refugees from Nikolicë, Linotopi, Grammousta, Foussia, Veternik, Niçë, Grabovë, Llëngë etc. (KOUKOUDIS, 2000: 353).
- Greek sources claim that toward the end of the 19th century half the Greek population of Salonica comprised of Vlachs (ΚΟΥΚΟΥΔΗΣ -1-, 2000: 87-90, 118-120). According to Weigand, the Greek element in Salonica was composed of hellenised Aromanians and Bulgarians. The majority of them had forgotten their mother tongue. Despite that, Vlach was spoken in the neighbourhoods of St. Nicholas, St. Athanasius and St. Theodore (WEIGAND, 1895: 222). According to Delacamara, about 10000 Vlachs lived in Salonica (DELACAMARA, 1904: 49), and the same figure was given by Cordescu as well. He concluded that the vast majority of them had already been hellenised (CORDESCU, 1906: 147). Neniţescu, on the other hand, claimed that 12500 Vlachs lived in Salonica. Their children filled the streets in the three Vlach neighbourhoods, sung and told riddles exclusively in Vlach (NENIŢESCU, 1895: 553, 571). Wace and Thompson agreed that a significant number of Salonica Greeks were, in fact, Vlachs from Mount Olympus (WACE -THOMPSON, 1914: 210). Apart from the Vlach villages on Mount Olympus, Vlachs came to Salonica from Kleisoura, Nymfaio, Kruševo, Veria, Korçë, Nižepole, Berati and the Vlach settlements in Thessaly (ZUCA, 1903: 257; NENIŢESCU, 1895: 572).
- КАТАРЏИЕВ, 1961: 16-17; According to Weigand, in 1890, 2000-3000 persons from Serres inhabitants were with Vlach origins, among which the wealthiest families: Tegochik, Duro, Kontos and Karamichu. They came from Pindus and Olympus (WEIGAND, 1895: 228). According to Picot, Vlachs were the majority in Serres (PICOT, 1875: 23). Neniţescu pinpointed a figure of over 4000 Vlachs in Serres, who were the wealthiest and most powerful in the town and pulled all the strings (NENIŢESCU, 1895: 560).Last edited by Carlin; 09-10-2018, 11:57 AM.Comment
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This one:Originally posted by Carlin15 View PostURL:
- When the Venetian captain Angiolello passed through Macedonia and on August 13, 1470 recorded his stay on the Holy Mountain, he wrote that "there are many Christian monks, some of whom are Greeks, others Macedonians, Vlachs, and there are even Italians and people from other nations." Four days later, while camping by the mouth of the Mesta River, he noted that "there live Greeks and Macedonians."
- In the 15th century, Bertrando de la Brokier traveled through the Balkans and left behind an account of his travels. Among other things, he writes "...and I remembered the heavy oppression of the Turk over the emperor in Constantinople and over all Greeks, Macedonians and Bulgarians, and even over the Despot of Rascia [Rashka, as he referred to Gjuragj Brankovich] and all his subjects, which is very unfortunate for the all of Christianity.... And there are many Christians who are forced to serve the Turk, like the Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Esklavonians, Rascians and Serbians...".
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Daco-Thracian tribes in Macedonia (and other regions).Comment
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The following maps come from Dragoslav Srejovic - "Iliri i Tracani" ("Illyrians and Thracians"). The entire book, which is in Serbian, can be found here:
Paleo-Balkan peoples and their territories
Tribes and towns in Thrace
I haven't read the book but the author seems to separate the Greeks from the Macedonians. The Thracians and Illyrians are placed alongside (as separate) the other Balkan peoples such as the Dardanians, Triballians, Macedonians, etc. First page:
Last edited by Carlin; 09-22-2018, 10:58 PM.Comment
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Expropriations et confiscations des terres dans le cadre de la colonisation romaine en Achaïe et en Macédoine, Athanasios D. Rizakis
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Summary:
Rome had, in the Greek peninsula, a significant amount of land belonging to the ager publicus; this land was either old royal property (e.g. in Macedonia), confiscated by Aemilius Paullus in 167 BC and leased by the censors or else land belonging to cities (e.g. Corinth) and confiscated after the Achaean war (146 BC). When public property was not available Caesar and his successors had no qualms about confiscating the required land for their colonists (e.g. Buthrote, Dymé) by using various pretexts. Augustus, meanwhile, claimed to have bought the land given to his colonists and literary sources suggest that, in some cases, other kind of financial compensations were given to the old inhabitants of a city transformed into a colony (e.g. Patrai). At the same time the Italian grant of ius italicum was given to some colonies in Macedonia (e.g. Dyrrachion, Philippes) where the newcomers had been expelled from their Italian lands.
Ius Italicum (Latin, Italian or Italic law) was an honour conferred on particular cities of the Roman Empire by the emperors. It did not describe any status of citizenship, but granted to communities outside Italy the legal fiction that it was on Italian soil. This meant that it was governed under Roman rather than local or Hellenistic law, had a greater degree of autonomy in their relations with provincial governors, all those born in the city automatically gained Roman citizenship, and the city's land was exempt from certain taxes. As citizens of Rome, people were able to buy and sell property, were exempt from land tax and the poll tax and were entitled to protection by Roman law.
Map of Caesar's and Augustus's Colonies
The Diffusion of the Roman-Italian communities in Macedonia
Last edited by Carlin; 09-23-2018, 10:30 AM.Comment
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