South Slavic tribes

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    #16
    Greek has no close living relates because it is a mixture of Indo-European and non Indo-European languages. And if you look at some important lexical examples of Phrygian it has the same sound changes as Paleo-Balkan and Balto-Slavic languages. Words for a god, city, earth and water all have cognates to Paleo-Balkan/Balto-Slavic which are much closer than they are to Greek. Later, when Phrygians moved to Asia Minor their language influenced by Greek. That is why the (assumed) deciphered Phrygian inscriptions may be similar to Greek in some respects, but without having researched them properly, I can't say for certain.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      #17
      I found this very interesting about Phrygian it put's it in perspective:

      Cautions / Clarifications and FAQ about Phrygian
      During the 19th and 20th century, Phrygian was studied extensively by many scholars in order to reach the level of understanding we have today. The scarce nature of the material, left Phrygian exposed to anarchical research in forms of interpretations. Phrygian texts are generally understood by proximity, therefore one needs to be conservative with the interpretation of them. Based on what we've seen so far online and what people have been searching on Phrygian to reach Palaeolexicon, a list of FAQ has been compiled below:
      Is Phrygian a palaeo-Balkan language?

      Yes it is. Even though it is attested only in Anatolia, it does not have any affinity with languages such as Hittite, Luwian, Lydian, Lycian etc. Of course, personal names and certain characteristics found in the IE Anatolian languages were passed to Phrygian.

      Is Phrygian a satem language?

      No it is not. See the classification section for details over the centum vs satem debate.

      Is Phrygian a Hellenic / Greek language/dialect?

      No it is not. Question yourself, is 'Is Portuguese Spanish'? The answer is the same, but both are Latin languages. In the case of Greek and Phrygian, we have two languages deriving from a common Proto-Indo-European dialect/language that some call 'Greco-Phrygian'. In this same group, it is believed that proto-Armenian belonged as well.

      Is Phrygian a Baltic or Slavic language?

      Not even close. Several words are close to the Baltic and Slavic equivalents, but that is a phenomenon seen between all IE languages. No ' Phrygian' scholar has ever claimed a relationship between Phrygian and Balto-Slavic languages.

      Is Phrygian the oldest language ever?

      Of course not. The experiment of Psameticus is for sure not an example to follow in linguistics. If Proto-Indo-European (that Phrygian derived from) started to split in dialects because of migrations around 4000 B.C then automatically Phrygian cannot be the oldest language ever.
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
      GOTSE DELCEV

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        #18
        I've seen that article, parts of it are mere speculation and deliberate misinterpretation to distance the relationship of Phrygian as a Paleo-Balkan language to Balto-Slavic.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Po-drum
          Junior Member
          • Mar 2009
          • 66

          #19
          The name of Rynchines may be connected with the name of the river Rendina which flows through Lagadin and Beshlik (Bolbe) lakes and goes in the Orphano gulf.
          Another one is that their name is possibly derived by slavic word "ruchei" (with included nasal vowel) - stream (Strymonian's???), brook, creek..
          Macedonia - my shoulders from ruins and skies

          Comment

          • Carlin
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 3332

            #20
            Hi to all, I think Velegezites (Βελεγεζίται) and Berzites (Βερζηται) were of Slavic origin, or at the very least, 100% Slavic-speaking.

            Is there any evidence that they were of Turkic/Avar origin? Are there any primary sources or is it mere speculation and guess-work?

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #21
              Originally posted by Carlin View Post
              Hi to all, I think Velegezites (Βελεγεζίται) and Berzites (Βερζηται) were of Slavic origin, or at the very least, 100% Slavic-speaking.

              Is there any evidence that they were of Turkic/Avar origin? Are there any primary sources or is it mere speculation and guess-work?
              I think it is likely that they spoke the Slavic lingua franca, but they may not have necessarily been indigenous Danubian peoples. Here is another thread where the possible Turkic etymology of some of the tribal names is discussed:

              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • momce
                Banned
                • Oct 2012
                • 426

                #22
                this is true there were turkic and iranic(not sure, controversial) tribes in those regions before the Ottomans

                Comment

                • Carlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3332

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  I think it is likely that they spoke the Slavic lingua franca, but they may not have necessarily been indigenous Danubian peoples. Here is another thread where the possible Turkic etymology of some of the tribal names is discussed:

                  http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...t=curta+turkic
                  Thanks SOM. Great stuff.

                  I will revise my beliefs & misconceptions accordingly. : )

                  Comment

                  • George S.
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 10116

                    #24
                    carlin if you can find this map of slavic movements throughout the ages it will show you which types of slavs moved towards macedonia ,which slavs originated the thracians etc.I think it's in on one of those proto slavic threads.I was surprised to see how many different type of slavs there were.Also i found by research that all those slavic people so called originated from sumeria mesopatamia.It all ties in with the origination of all people's from that region.
                    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                    GOTSE DELCEV

                    Comment

                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      #25
                      The Slavs and the Avars, by Omeljan Pritsak

                      LINK:


                      Part 1 ( Avars; nomads of the steppe and nomads of the sea; rule by professional warrior and merchant elites; charismatic leaders usually living in towns before coming to power; leader's retinue - the Germanic comitatus, the Old Turkic buyruq, the Hunnic boyla-r; military slavery systems - the Mamlūks of Egypt/Syria, or the Ottoman qulluq; military settlements - the Russian Kazak; Pseudo-Avars)

                      Part 2 ( the name «Slav»; Jordanes; Οὖννοι, Σκλαβηνοί, Ἄνται; Venethi; Vinidarii; the Slavic and the Turkic linguae francae of the 500 AD )

                      Part 3 ( the Ostrogothic and Frankish Vinidi; Winidi and Samo; Winidi and Antai - frontiermen; Alans - cavalry )

                      Part 4 ( the Sclaveni as a post-Gothic institution; the Σκλάβοι/Σκλαβηνοί as the new military units for the new pax-builders in the steppe - the Proto-Bulgars, after the Germanic tribal withdrawal to Italy/Gaul; all Proto-Bulgarian branches have their own Sklavin-/Ṣ(a)qlab; the Khazar pax; the five Sklavin bands attacking Thessalonica and their Hunno-Iranian names which reflect the Ponto-Caspian milieu of the time; Proto-Bulgarian etymology of Sklavin- / Slav-; the Sklavins as a new, amphibious, type of troops after the rise of Constantinople; the Sklavins and the Avar pax )

                      Part 5 ( nomadic paxes - Säbirs, (Pseudo)-Avars, and their need for manpower; a Slavic lingua franca developing in the military camps of the Avar pax; Germanic cultural borrowings in «Common Slavic» from the Winidi; Serbs and Croats - successor states after the demise of the Avar Pax )




                      The anonymous Miracula S. Demetrii (= Mir II; compiled ca. 675-685) [117] gives a list of five bands (ἔϑνος) of the Sklavins who attacked Thessalonica in 614 [118]. Many scholars have labored in vain to establish Slavic etymologies of these putative «Slavic tribal names» [119]. If the Sklavin troops were created by the Proto-Bulgars sometime during the last decades of the fifth century, as I assume, the self-designations of these bands should reflect the Ponto-Caspian milieu of the time, which was Hunno-(Eastern) Iranian. Let us therefore check to see whether the hypothesis holds. Here are the names [120]:

                      Βαϊουνητ-
                      Βελεγεζητ-
                      Βερζητ-
                      Δρουγουβιτ-
                      Σαγουδατ-

                      Four seem to have a suffix /it/, spelled -ητ- or -ιτ-, while the fifth may be seen as without suffix.

                      There is a suffix /it/ that is very familiar to Altaists. Indeed, it occurs in the name of the Hunnic Avars: Varxun- it (see fh. 30, above).

                      .
                      .
                      .
                      .

                      Detaching the it-suffix, let us look at the four bases Baioun-, Belegez-, Berz- and Drougoub-.

                      Baioun. Here we can read u or ū < *-aġu- [124], plus the nominative singular suffix /n/. This is then the equivalent of a well-known Old Turkic word, which occurs with the majestic plural suffix /t/ (because of the meaning): bayagu-t «rich-merchant» (the standard translation of Sanskrit śreṣṭ̣hī). Therefore we posit *bayūn < *baya-ġun [125].

                      Belegez is a reasonable transcription of Hunnic bel-egeč, where *bēl means «five », and *egeč is comparable to Old Turkic äkäč «(elder) sister of the clan» [126] and Old Mongolian egeči «elder sister» [127]. The surname bel-egeč reminds one of Beševliev, the surname of the leading Bulgarian specialist in the field of Proto-Bulgarian inscriptions: beš-evli is Ottoman Turkish and means «(having) five wives».

                      Berz- is doubtless the front variant of the name of a Khazaro-Bulgarian charismatic clan Barč- [128]; it can be taken as an incorrectly reconstructed form from Βερζιλ- Barč il > Bärčil, and finally Bärč. The band leader was apparently a member of the Barč clan.

                      Drougouw-. This word has three distinct Hunnic (Hunno-Bulgarian) features: first, initial d-, as against Old Turkic t- [129]; second, metathesis of the vowel, producing a consonant-cluster in initial position, *dur- > dru- [130]; and third, the development of the final g into -w [131]. The root is the verb *dur- (OTurkic tur-, but Ottoman dur-) «stand», both in the sense of «stand upright» [132] and «stand still» */ġuġ/ is the suffix of nomen usus. This then is a surname *Druġuw (equivalent to Turkic turġuġ, turquġ), signifying «he who usually stands still». Kāšġarī, the eleventh-century Turkic philologist explains the name (in Arabic) thus: «shyness (shame, diffidence) about something; one says ol mändän turquġ = (Arabic) ṣāra minnī ḥayīyan li-fi̒l badā minhū «he is ashamed before me over a matter that arose concerning him» [133]. The surname *Druguw was probably used jocularly, as an antonym, for a very forceful person (in the manner common among the Zaporogian Cossaks later).

                      .
                      .

                      The fifth name, Sagudat-, with no suffix, is of Eastern Iranian origin: *sāka-dāt «gift of the stag» - the stag was the totem of the Scythians [134]. The etymon *śāka, in Ossetian sag, is rendered in the Bactrian inscriptions as CΑΓΓΟ, CΑΓΟ; in the middle of the fourth century there was a Scythian people on the Danube called Saga-dares *sāga-dār «stag [totem] possessor» [135]. Old Persian dāta is Middle Persian, e.g. Pahlavi, d’t [136].

                      Conclusion: the five names preserved in Mir II are not «Slavic tribal names», but self-designations of Proto-Bulgarian Sklavin bands; accordingly they have clear Hunnic or Iranian etymologies.
                      Last edited by Carlin; 06-15-2016, 10:30 AM.

                      Comment

                      • Carlin
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3332

                        #26
                        Adding to this thread the following point of view, by S. Liakos.

                        Source: Sokratis Liakos, book "The origins of Armonians (Vlachs)".

                        --> Pages 48 (end of page) and 49 (top):

                        Dalmatian settlers of Epirus, since the Avar invasions they were certainly the Vaiunites (Baiounitai), recorded (incorrectly) as Slavs when in fact they were Narentanoi Illyrio-Vlachs, ancestors of Morlachs.

                        Footnote 147 of page 49:

                        Morlachs were called Vlachs of Dalmatia, who completely Slavicized only in the last century (meaning the 19th century). The last Vlachophone among them died around 1885.


                        --> Pages X and XI of the Abstract, of the book (Abstract provided in French) - translated into English below:

                        Regarding the 'Sclavini' who descended to the Greek regions, the testimony of John of Nikiu should be noted (Egyptian bishop, contemporary of Emperor Phocas who reigned between 602-610), in which pagan nations that were ravaging in these times the provinces of Macedonia, Thessaly, etc. (i.e. further south), and even besieged Salonika, were also found among Illyrian tribes.

                        Such must probably be the Pannonian tribe of Hercynians or Hercullians who settled to the east of Thessaloniki in the northern area of Halkidiki, or it existed until the time of Emperor Alexius Comnenus but with its name changed to Rychini (or Rynchini / Rinhini).

                        Another Celto-Illyrian tribe that came down and settled in Eastern Thessaly, was the Pannonian tribe named Belzites (or Belezites and Berzites); it was also registered as one of the innumerable Slavic tribes.

                        Around Salonica also settled the tribe of ‘Sclavenes’ Sagudati, for which even the Slavic historians have recognized that it was not Slavic.

                        The remainder of tribes called ‘Sclavenes’ appear later among innumerable F A L C A R I of the nomadic shepherds cited by Cecaumenos, all debris of ancient Illyrian, Celtic, and Thracian tribes.

                        One of which was surely that of the Ezerites who descended to the Peloponnese (in the surroundings of Patrae), that is to say in a region for which Polybius (II, 5) was already writing that it was ravaged all the time by the Illyrians. Tribe which was also that of Asseriates, and mixed Celto-Illyrian tribe of Ozeriates. Mixed place names (Latin/Romanic – Illyrian – Celtic – and Albanian) are to this day those of the regions where lived (registered as Slavs) Ezeriti of the Middle Ages.

                        Comment

                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          #27
                          This is the quote by John, Bishop of Nikiu:

                          18. And in regard to Rome it is recounted that the kings of (this) epoch had by means of the barbarians and the nations and the Illyrians devastated Christian cities and carried off their inhabitants captive, and that no city escaped save Thessalonica only; for its walls were strong, and through the help of God the nations were unable to get possession of it. But all the province was devastated and depopulated.


                          Link:

                          Comment

                          • Carlin
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3332

                            #28
                            The quote by John, Bishop of Nikiu (7th century), needs to be repeated - simply because the author mentions ILLYRIANS, not 'Slavs':

                            18. And in regard to Rome it is recounted that the kings of (this) epoch had by means of the barbarians and the nations and the Illyrians devastated Christian cities and carried off their inhabitants captive, and that no city escaped save Thessalonica only; for its walls were strong, and through the help of God the nations were unable to get possession of it. But all the province was devastated and depopulated.


                            What gives?
                            Last edited by Carlin; 04-12-2017, 11:02 PM.

                            Comment

                            • maco2envy
                              Member
                              • Jan 2015
                              • 288

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                              The quote by John, Bishop of Nikiu (7th century), needs to be repeated - simply because the author mentions ILLYRIANS, not 'Slavs':

                              18. And in regard to Rome it is recounted that the kings of (this) epoch had by means of the barbarians and the nations and the Illyrians devastated Christian cities and carried off their inhabitants captive, and that no city escaped save Thessalonica only; for its walls were strong, and through the help of God the nations were unable to get possession of it. But all the province was devastated and depopulated.


                              What gives?
                              Interesting enough most of the earliest ethnographic maps of the Balkans such as; Europa Polyglotta (1730), W. Muller (1842) and G. Kombst (1843), labeled most of the Balkan Slavs under the category of "Illyrians" or "Slav-Illyrians". Did the Bulgarian and Serbian national movements, which were propelled by the Russians, make the Slavo-Illyrian term obsolete via pan-slavism?

                              Comment

                              • maco2envy
                                Member
                                • Jan 2015
                                • 288

                                #30
                                Slavs in Macedonia/Vardar region were resettled in Anatolia by Roman emperor Constans II in 649 or 667 AD. The resettled Slavs gave rise to the city Gordoserbon in Asia minor.

                                Serb == Slav in this stage of history

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X