History of the Modern Serbs

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  • TrueMacedonian
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 3810

    #16
    Ok here's something that I have read before that might be of use for this topic.



    The Balkans in World History, by Andrew Baruch Wachtel
    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

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    • TrueMacedonian
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2009
      • 3810

      #17
      Could it be that the peasant noted in Wachtel's book was how many of the illiterate peasants of his time felt about their language. Simply as "our language"?
      Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

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      • Risto the Great
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 15658

        #18
        Karadzic defined "Serbian".
        Risto the Great
        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

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        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13669

          #19
          Indeed he did, I would say that the name for the language such as 'nashi' or 'ilirski' would have been the norm, whereas names such as 'Serb' and 'Croat' would denote groups of people, but not ethnicities or linguistic names. Interesting to note is that when I conducted a search on the Serbian language some time ago I could find more pre 19th century reference to it as 'pucki', now it seems as that information is scarce. Before Karadzic defined Serbian as a language, who spoke of it, as a Serbian language? The events prior to him refer to a period of time where the local vernacular was melted together with OCS and Russian, and called Slavo-Serbian.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavoserbian
          The Slavonic-Serbian language (славяносербскій / slavjanoserbskij or словенскій slovenskij; Serbian: славеносрпски / slavenosrpski) is a form of the Serbian language which was predominantly used at the end of the 18th century and the beginning of the 19th century by Serbian population in Vojvodina, and the Serbian diaspora in other parts of the Habsburg Monarchy, mainly as a written language. As such, it was also used in Montenegro and early stages of liberated Serbia.

          Slavoserbian was under high influence of the Church Slavonic language and the Russian language of that time.
          Slavo-Serbian, Slavjano-Bulgarian, Slav-Macedonian, seems to be a common trend in the early stages of modern development for these languages, as we know, Pulevski adds the 'Slav' prefix in some of his writings to glorify the fact that OCS is an ancestor tongue of Macedonian.


          Here is something interesting also, concerning the Orthodox refugees from the Balkans that settled in Russia during the 18th century, among whom were Serbs, Macedonians and Bulgarians.
          By the decree of the Senate of May 29, 1753, the free lands of this area were offered for settlement to Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, Hungarians and other Balkan peoples of Orthodox Christian denomination in order to ensure frontier protection and development of this part of Southern steppes.

          Slavo-Serbia was directly governed by Russia's Governing Senate. The settlers eventually formed the Bakhmut hussar regiment in 1764. Also in 1764, Slavo-Serbia was transformed into the Donets uyezd of Yekaterinoslav Governorate (now in Dnipropetrovs'ka oblast', Ukraine).
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            #20
            Interesting stuff SoM.
            I wonder if some of those Russian immigrants coming into Greece now are some of these people (of varied ethnicity) who maintained an Orthodox connection to the Patriachate?
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

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            • Pelister
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 2742

              #21
              Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
              Could it be that the peasant noted in Wachtel's book was how many of the illiterate peasants of his time felt about their language. Simply as "our language"?
              It shows that the labels and terms used by the West, were in many ways deviating and inconsistent with the state of things on the ground, or did not fit into the classification the peasants were using for such terms.

              Comment

              • TrueMacedonian
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2009
                • 3810

                #22
                That's very true Pelister. Many of the South Slavic speakers did in fact refer to themselves as Illyrians and their language as Illyrian or as SoM wrote Illyrski.
                Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

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                • Daskalot
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 4345

                  #23
                  Here is an importan quote about what the meaning of Serb/Serv/Serf is, directly from the horses mouth so to say:

                  But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius recieved him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination. 'Serbs' in the tongue of the Romans is the word for 'slaves', whence the colloquial 'serbula' for menial shoes, and 'tzerboulianoi' for those who wear cheap, shoddy footgear. This name the Serbs acquired from their being slaves of the emperor of the Romans.
                  Source: "DE ADMINISTRANDO IMPERIO" by Constantine Porphyrogenitus, paragraph 32, written between the years AD 948-952.

                  So the Latin word for SERVUS/SERVI which means SLAVE/SLAVES is the name given to the SERBS of today.

                  Simple isnt it?

                  Please do also consider this, if the Latin word SERVUS has everything to do with the now National and Ethnic name of the modern Serbs so why would there not be a connection with the Latin word Vulgarus and the modern name of the Bulgars?
                  Macedonian Truth Organisation

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                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13669

                    #24
                    While the suggestion is worth consideration, one of the issues I have is the presence of variant names located outside of the Balkans, such as the Sorbs in Germany and Poland.



                    The Romans couldn't possibly have given the name to those people, as they (Sorbs) are said to have split from the (Balkan) Serbs prior to the latter's crossing south of the Danube. A likely origin for the name is Iranic, given the lacking Slavic etymology:



                    Origin of Serboi
                    The Serboi were probably Sarmatian (Iranian) tribe, who lived in Eastern Europe (Sarmatia Asiatica), to the north of the Caucasus. The earliest historical records about Serboi dates from the 1st century, in the works of the historian Tacitus (ca. 50 AD) and geographer Pliny (Plinius) (69-75 AD).

                    In the fourth century, Serboi, together with Huns and Alans, moved to Central Europe, and were found dwelling near the Elbe, in a region designated as White Serbia, in what is now Sachsen (eastern Germany) and western Poland. The Serboi, it is argued, intermarried with the indigenous Slavs of the region, adopted their language, and transferred their name to the Slavs. Since the white colour was designation for the west, name 'White Serbia' actually could mean 'Western Serbia'.

                    It is possible that the Serboi in Sarmatia were similar to other Sarmatian/Iranian peoples on the northern Caucasus, such as the Alans, and spoke an Indo-European Iranian language similar to present-day Ossetian. At some point in the history of the Serboi, this Old Sarmatian language stood side by side with the Slavic language in White Serbia (mentioned by the Byzantine emperor, Constantine Porphyrogenitus), and likely even in the first 300 years leading up to the formation of the Serb state in the Balkans in the 9th century.

                    Serbs and Croats would retain their sumptuous Iranian names. Bosnia was populated by an Illyrian tribe called Besoi. Montenegro would be called by Serbs as Crna Gora 'black mountain'.

                    The origin of the name Serb from an Indo-European root seems most probably. Serbian toponyms in their homeland in Caucasus are often remote to Slavic tongues, but close to Iranian.

                    Both names Serboi (Serb) and Hrvat (Croat) seem to have originated in ancient Iran. Even today, there is Pashtun tribe in Afghanistan named Sarbans. They could be most probably ancestors of the old Sarmatian Serbs.

                    Most probably, the origin of Serbs and Croats is Indo-European. Although they adopted the language of the Slavs and mixed with them, they preserved their original Iranian names. Franks, a Germanic tribe who had conquered Gaul also lost its ancient language against numerically superior native population.
                    Definetly an interesting topic that warrants a deeper look.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • makedonin
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1668

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Daskalot View Post

                      Please do also consider this, if the Latin word SERVUS has everything to do with the now National and Ethnic name of the modern Serbs so why would there not be a connection with the Latin word Vulgarus and the modern name of the Bulgars?
                      Of course there is Daskale.

                      The only misfortune with the Vulgarus i.e. Bulgarus is that it happened that there were Tartar people who had this name as their tribal name, thus the preexisting Vulgarus> peasant, commoner got mixed with the tribal Bulgar which most likely denote the origin place of this tribe, Volga river.

                      The fortune it has it's own ways
                      To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13669

                        #26
                        That could probably be an acceptable theory, but it would need to be studied a little further. Check the below thread, Danube Bulgars weren't even called Bulgars by many (if any?) early writers.
                        There is a great misconception regarding the above term, its use and meaning during history. When did it get national, ethnic, etc?
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • makedonin
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1668

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                          That could probably be an acceptable theory, but it would need to be studied a little further. Check the below thread, Danube Bulgars weren't even called Bulgars by many (if any?) early writers.
                          That "theory" needs some polishing. But for me, there is no doubt that Vulgar is the root word for Bulgar. There was "Vulgar Latin" and "Musika Vulgaris". Vulgar Latin was used by peasants, while Musika Vulgaris simply means "Folk Music". I don't have to mention that Balkan, or more to say "Slavic" feature is V<>B.

                          But if that is correct, what wikipedia states (I don't trust wiki) than, the "misfortune of faith" is not as I connected it.
                          To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                          Comment

                          • Daskalot
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 4345

                            #28
                            Originally posted by makedonin View Post
                            That "theory" needs some polishing. But for me, there is no doubt that Vulgar is the root word for Bulgar. There was "Vulgar Latin" and "Musika Vulgaris". Vulgar Latin was used by peasants, while Musika Vulgaris simply means "Folk Music". I don't have to mention that Balkan, or more to say "Slavic" feature is V<>B.

                            But if that is correct, what wikipedia states (I don't trust wiki) than, the "misfortune of faith" is not as I connected it.
                            Here is an example of the use of Vulgar meaning peasant predating the Volga Bulgars(Volgars) with about 800 years.

                            Latin original:
                            Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

                            which translates into English as:
                            I despise the common crowd and keep them away from me.

                            Quoted from Quintus Horatius Flaccus, he was a Roman poet and lived between the years BC 65-8.
                            There are many more connections like this to be made, remember the information is out there .
                            Macedonian Truth Organisation

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                            • TrueMacedonian
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 3810

                              #29
                              So here is an interesting piece of info that I found that is quite the opposite of what was posted about the Serbs. Serbs = Peasants is what we already have in here. But this source states Serbs = Intellectuals???



                              Culture, Civilization, And Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece by Laurie Kain Hart



                              and this link



                              So according to B. Recatas (whom I believe is a Frenchman) believes the term Serb = Intellectual. Considering that many Balkanites in the 19th century were iliterates this is a very strange socio-ethno label.
                              Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13669

                                #30
                                It is pretty strange, and would probably have only been used within some limited Slavic-speaking circles. They are the first of the Slavic-speakers in the Balkans to gain independence (after the Montenegrins, who never truly lost it for any extended period).

                                I recall in the past there was some information concerning the Slavic-speakers of Thrace and Moesia, soon to be 'ethnic Bulgars', using 'ich' in their surnames during the early 19th century, influenced by free Serbia. Does anybody have that information on hand?
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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