International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

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  • Jankovska
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 1774

    #16
    I am not sure what to think

    Comment

    • Pelister
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 2742

      #17
      Originally posted by Jankovska View Post
      I am not sure what to think
      Its hard to know what will happen.

      A part of me still thinks this is the wrong path to take, even if the decision is favourable.

      I believe our only legitimate exit from this madness is to name the Greek attack for what it is - and defend our right to exist.

      Comment

      • Jankovska
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 1774

        #18
        Does it matter that Greece didn't veto us? They said they will but they didn't have to really, we were told NO before the had to veto? What effect will this have?

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13669

          #19
          Good question. What will result of this, even if we win the case? A slap on Karaman's wrist?
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Spartan
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 1037

            #20
            Is there a body, or organization of some sort that could enforce this courts ruling?
            If no, whats the point?
            Neither nation, if they lose, will comply in my opinion....

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15658

              #21
              Spartan, Macedonia has nothing to lose. Seriously and literally.
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13669

                #22
                You're right RtG, although Spartan brings up a good point, who will enforce this?
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • King Makedon
                  Member
                  • Apr 2009
                  • 187

                  #23
                  At first I was happy that it finally happened.
                  but now after reflecting for a while, i am not sure if the court is able to do a decision. After all they are no linguists, no archeologists and no historians. they are lawyers and judges. they will judge according international law, which i am not sure what at the end it would mean for us.
                  Last edited by King Makedon; 07-27-2009, 08:16 PM.
                  ]
                  The world belongs to Macedonia. Macedonia does not belong to the world, especially not to Macedonia's neighbouring countries.
                  [/SIZE]

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    #24
                    Nobody is questioning archeology, history or language in this court. They have nothing to do with this legal matter. But the court will demonstrate the pettyness of the Greek State no matter who wins for whatever reason. Well worth a front seat in my opinion.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13669

                      #25
                      So any news on the progress of the case yet?
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Rogi
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 2343

                        #26
                        It is not enforceable; it would only be used as an argument to withdraw.

                        The Macedonian Government is afraid to withdraw from the interim accord on the basis of their sovereign rights as a nation. So, instead they are trying to play politics from a lesser position.

                        Their plans would be in this order:
                        - Court rules in favor of Macedonia and says Greece must abide by terms of Interim Accord.
                        - Greece must now accept Macedonia as a member of NATO under the interim name and abide by Interim Accord.

                        Then they have their decision tree:

                        Option 1: Greece rejects the court ruling, which is not enforceable and continues to block Macedonia's NATO membership. This gives the Macedonian Government the legal weight it is looking for in order to withdraw from what is then considered a useless interim accord. Name goes to UN. Now, there is no interim accord and no reason why Macedonia cannot join NATO (since there is no open issue in the UN) - issue becomes purely bilateral, in order for Macedonia to join NATO.

                        Option 2: Greece abides by court ruling which says that both nations must abide by interim accord, and accepts Macedonia in NATO. Macedonia becomes a full-fledged member. Macedonia still in UN under interim name. Now that the NATO carrot is out of the way, the EU one begins and the whole process is repeated again;Greece blocks Macedonia, Macedonia kept out of EU, pressured to change name, legal argument says Greece broke interim accord, Macedonia joins EU).

                        There's another option which nobody is placing much weight on and that is for Greece to lose the ruling and accept it, but use its diplomatic weight (i.e. as it has with large military purchases at crucial moments to secure support) in some nations which do hold real power/weight and get them to block Macedonia. Though Greece doesn't really have the diplomatic power for this, if they did, it might end up being a good thing for Macedonia in terms of realising that they should look elsewhere and not put all their eggs in the one EU/NATO basket.



                        Personally, I think all three of the above options are seriously flawed.

                        Macedonia must end negotiations now, not wait until the international community has been given time to condition the Macedonian people into thinking a name change is worthy of EU/NATO membership.

                        Comment

                        • NikodimMKD
                          Banned
                          • Apr 2009
                          • 187

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Rogi View Post
                          It is not enforceable; it would only be used as an argument to withdraw.

                          The Macedonian Government is afraid to withdraw from the interim accord on the basis of their sovereign rights as a nation. So, instead they are trying to play politics from a lesser position.

                          Their plans would be in this order:
                          - Court rules in favor of Macedonia and says Greece must abide by terms of Interim Accord.
                          - Greece must now accept Macedonia as a member of NATO under the interim name and abide by Interim Accord.

                          Then they have their decision tree:

                          Option 1: Greece rejects the court ruling, which is not enforceable and continues to block Macedonia's NATO membership. This gives the Macedonian Government the legal weight it is looking for in order to withdraw from what is then considered a useless interim accord. Name goes to UN. Now, there is no interim accord and no reason why Macedonia cannot join NATO (since there is no open issue in the UN) - issue becomes purely bilateral, in order for Macedonia to join NATO.

                          Option 2: Greece abides by court ruling which says that both nations must abide by interim accord, and accepts Macedonia in NATO. Macedonia becomes a full-fledged member. Macedonia still in UN under interim name. Now that the NATO carrot is out of the way, the EU one begins and the whole process is repeated again;Greece blocks Macedonia, Macedonia kept out of EU, pressured to change name, legal argument says Greece broke interim accord, Macedonia joins EU).

                          There's another option which nobody is placing much weight on and that is for Greece to lose the ruling and accept it, but use its diplomatic weight (i.e. as it has with large military purchases at crucial moments to secure support) in some nations which do hold real power/weight and get them to block Macedonia. Though Greece doesn't really have the diplomatic power for this, if they did, it might end up being a good thing for Macedonia in terms of realising that they should look elsewhere and not put all their eggs in the one EU/NATO basket.



                          Personally, I think all three of the above options are seriously flawed.

                          Macedonia must end negotiations now, not wait until the international community has been given time to condition the Macedonian people into thinking a name change is worthy of EU/NATO membership.

                          Rogi,

                          What will happen if the court rules in favour of the "greeks" that we broke the Interim Agreement first?

                          Comment

                          • Risto the Great
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 15658

                            #28
                            Originally posted by NikodimMKD View Post
                            Rogi,

                            What will happen if the court rules in favour of the "greeks" that we broke the Interim Agreement first?
                            You will have to give examples of how it is possible that this has happened. If it has happened we will have evidence that Macedonia has changed its constitution to reclaim Macedonian territories in Greece, that the UN is calling it Macedonia etc.

                            All good options in my opinion. But none of them happening.
                            So why do you play the apologist Niko?
                            Risto the Great
                            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                            Comment

                            • NikodimMKD
                              Banned
                              • Apr 2009
                              • 187

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                              You will have to give examples of how it is possible that this has happened. If it has happened we will have evidence that Macedonia has changed its constitution to reclaim Macedonian territories in Greece, that the UN is calling it Macedonia etc.

                              All good options in my opinion. But none of them happening.
                              So why do you play the apologist Niko?
                              I'm saying this because if you read statements from NATO General Secretary, he seems to be confirming what the greeks have said that there was never a VETO and that the general consensus from all NATO members is that the name dispute be resolved first.

                              From a tactical point of view I don't think this was a good move and like others have said, has the potential of backfiring on us.

                              Macedonia should concentrate on other things and not greece. We have been playing political roulette for too long. There are other more important matters at hand.

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15658

                                #30
                                Bu the leader of Greece said there was a VETO.
                                And the NATO General Secretary will have to prove his assertions in court as to whether a VETO occurred. Bearing in mind he was the same person saying Macedonia was completely eligible.

                                You are really going to have to back your statements up Niko.
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                                Comment

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