International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

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  • Bill77
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2009
    • 4545

    Originally posted by indigen View Post
    Lets say "we" can "win", do you think there is NO COST to Macedonian national interests in LEGITIMISING THE IA via the ICJ? And what exactly is Macedonia "aiming to win"?
    I'm not sure what you mean by win, But if you are referring to the judging is for the plaintiff (Macedonian Government) there will be no more cost than it already is to the Macedonian Interest. Why, because MHO nothing will change. We all agree the ruling can not be enforced. And i am certain Greece would not abide by the ruling on their own free will.

    (Let me add that i am aware of what its costing us now)

    What is Macedonia "aiming to win"? Well its the Government that is only aiming. I can only guess (as i have mentioned before)

    A) Their aim is to appease the pro EU faction, by showing they are resolving (or trying to) the halt in progress on joining NATO and the EU.
    The fact that the government are doing something rather than nothing, is a gesture that they hope would appease the many that push for EU and Nato entry. Its a game Gruevski is playing, stalling for time

    B) Bragging rights. Also The right for diplomats to point fingers at the other in future, which at the end of the day, means jack shit.

    Now i also have a "C"
    C) Gruevski and co, could be genuinely thinking and hoping the ICJ decision at the end will be enforceable.





    Originally posted by indigen View Post
    Ok, Bill, I did take it the wrong way when you used "favours" and I apologise for that! Your above clarifications takes a lot of "heat" from these arguments but there are still issues you need to consider, IMO.

    Cheers,
    I.
    Please bring up issues i might have anytime. I would be grateful for it. I might show frustration at times but thats due to me struggling to express my self and using correct words just as in this case.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Bill77; 03-03-2011, 06:39 AM.
    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

    Comment

    • julie
      Senior Member
      • May 2009
      • 3869

      My son took my usb stick, just got back, Bill, articulated in response to George's post , and did it well
      Gruevski has the logic of an Irishman, taking Greece to the ICJ for not upholding their end of the IA. I would love the opportunity to ask him - why in the name of Macedonia, would you condone the enforcement of that disgusting imposition on our identity, that had me in total disbelief. That and removing the Kutlesh Sonce off our statues.
      Like I said, Macedonia bears handcuffs and the key has been thrown away.
      We are witnessing the annihalation of our identity, and it is being accelerated
      "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

      Comment

      • indigen
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 1558

        Originally posted by julie View Post
        Gruevski has the logic of an Irishman, taking Greece to the ICJ for not upholding their end of the IA. I would love the opportunity to ask him - why in the name of Macedonia, would you condone the enforcement of that disgusting imposition on our identity, that had me in total disbelief. That and removing the Kutlesh Sonce off our statues.

        Like I said, Macedonia bears handcuffs and the key has been thrown away.

        We are witnessing the annihalation of our identity, and it is being accelerated
        Well summed and put, Julie!

        Bill, take note of what Julie says above and please read some of the articles by Marjan Popeski, especially the ones that were recently published in Nova Makedonija.

        The following is a link to Marjan Popeski's site on International Law (Popeski, at the level of legal expertise on International Law, appears to be on par with Igor Janev on legal ways to approach the sovereignty issues facing Macedonia and has had a couple of his articles published in Nova Makedonija recently): http://marjan.mk/pravo/megjunarodno-pravo/

        Comment

        • Bill77
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2009
          • 4545

          Thanks for the Link Indi.

          By the way i totally agree with Julie and in no way do i favor the IA.

          The only difference between all you guys and i is i blame the citizens more than the government for it, and always have. This doesn't mean i don't blame the government. (i just want to make that clear)
          Last edited by Bill77; 03-03-2011, 07:44 AM.
          http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

          Comment

          • Vangelovski
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 8530

            Originally posted by indigen View Post
            Well summed and put, Julie!

            Bill, take note of what Julie says above and please read some of the articles by Marjan Popeski, especially the ones that were recently published in Nova Makedonija.

            The following is a link to Marjan Popeski's site on International Law (Popeski, at the level of legal expertise on International Law, appears to be on par with Igor Janev on legal ways to approach the sovereignty issues facing Macedonia and has had a couple of his articles published in Nova Makedonija recently): http://marjan.mk/pravo/megjunarodno-pravo/
            Indigen,

            I'm not too fond of Janev's approach. Although it may provide us with the desired 'end', it does so in a manner that contradicts our national sovereignty. Like all other countries that have changed their names at the UN and other international organisations, I think a simple diplomatic note should suffice. Anything beyond Macedonia informing them of our state name 'Macedonia', as opposed to 'FYROM', through a diplomatic note would be tantamount to asking for permission to use our state name.
            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

            Comment

            • fyrOM
              Banned
              • Feb 2010
              • 2180

              Originally posted by George S. View Post
              Thanks for the reply i now know what to expect like a crystal ball future reading after a case of beer or two.
              Keep babbling George S…

              That's is thecrux macedonia must think ouside the square it must also needs to behave in a manner that it protects it's name & sovereignity.
              Try some of your own prescriptions…

              Try seeing past the face value of things…

              i am sure many of you have seen this article, but i stilll think it deserves s thread on here. Greece is plugged in the Matrix, Macedonia should too By Gorazd V. September 4, 2008 http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/3219/1/ Macedonia , as a country, is in negotiations with Greece for the past
              Last edited by fyrOM; 03-03-2011, 02:27 PM.

              Comment

              • George S.
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2009
                • 10116

                OM are you serious again.Well a referendum is not going to change things is it,they gruevski etc is still committed to a name change.
                Last edited by George S.; 03-03-2011, 08:14 PM. Reason: edit
                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                GOTSE DELCEV

                Comment

                • fyrOM
                  Banned
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 2180

                  Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                  I think a simple diplomatic note should suffice. Anything beyond Macedonia informing them of our state name 'Macedonia', as opposed to 'FYROM', through a diplomatic note would be tantamount to asking for permission to use our state name.
                  Vangelovski I am curious if you could indulge the forum with a walkthrough with your idea so that we might better understand it.
                  Lets say for argument sake you are the Macedonian government.

                  1. As you say you would send everyone in the world a simple diplomatic note informing them that you would like your country to be referred to as Macedonia from now on.

                  2. What happens if they send you a simple diplomatic note back saying we don’t believe you and we do not want to call you Macedonia and will continue calling you fyrom.

                  3. Is point 2 a possibility or can they not do this and if not what force or law ect compels them not to be able to reject your simple diplomatic note.

                  4. Like the eu banned the sale of Macedonian wines in the eu with the name Macedonia on it and a glut emerged could they do this on other goods and if so would you accept a label fyrom on your products so they could be sold outside of Macedonia or would you insist Macedonia be put on the label even if it meant they could not be sold in the eu.

                  5. In the event of a glut in product would you sell them to say Serbia or Slovenia if they offered you a very cheap price for them so that they could process the raw ingredients into products and sell them as their own product.

                  6. If you would sell them cheaply what do you think the effect would be on the Macedonian economy
                  The living standard of the Macedonian population
                  The tax revenue lost and the governments ability to provide social services and other modernisation programs.

                  7. Do you think other countries like Russia or china will buy you product and will they give you a better price or will they buy raw ingredients only.

                  8. What about foreign investors in Macedonia turn to you and say their factories cannot sell the products with Macedonia on the label. Will you give them special dispensation or would you say too bad and if so what do you think will be the affect on the current and future foreign investment.

                  How do you see things working out in practical step by step terms.

                  Comment

                  • makedonche
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2008
                    • 3242

                    OM
                    Excuse my interruption, i noticed the following comment from you:

                    1. As you say you would send everyone in the world a simple diplomatic note informing them that you would like your country to be referred to as Macedonia from now on.
                    I don't recall Vangelovski saying the note was to inform other countries of what we would like them to call us?
                    On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

                    Comment

                    • fyrOM
                      Banned
                      • Feb 2010
                      • 2180

                      I’m not a diplomat nor have I seen a simple diplomatic note so I cant say I know the correct acceptable syntax of such notes. I would think from previous post it would include something like
                      We inform you the name of our country is Macedonia…and then assumed it would continue something like…and all future correspondences should use this name. Ok Maybe the word like doesn’t come into it.

                      Comment

                      • makedonche
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2008
                        • 3242

                        Originally posted by OziMak View Post
                        I’m not a diplomat nor have I seen a simple diplomatic note so I cant say I know the correct acceptable syntax of such notes. I would think from previous post it would include something like
                        We inform you the name of our country is Macedonia…and then assumed it would continue something like…and all future correspondences should use this name. Ok Maybe the word like doesn’t come into it.
                        OM
                        Well picked up! You can see how it changes the context of the note and the intentions of it just by adding or leaving a word out here or there!
                        On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15658

                          Wow OM, you make some compelling arguments.
                          Perhaps Macedonia should rename itself to Dardania and get all of these economic benefits you are talking about. Everyone would be rich. Houses made of gold (or chocolate, the choice is yours) and just plain old righteous happy times.

                          How do you spell SDSM?
                          Is it Super Duper Sellout Macedonian? It sounds like you should join them and become their leader!
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Risto the Great
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 15658

                            Originally posted by OziMak View Post
                            I’m not a diplomat [/B]
                            On the contrary ... you have earned the goodwill of all Macedonians with your powerful and emotive views on Macedonian matters.

                            Who can forget the sage advice from you about not being able to sell your ajvar (or something) to the Sloventsi (or whoever) because we would insist on calling ourselves Macedonian?
                            Risto the Great
                            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                            Comment

                            • fyrOM
                              Banned
                              • Feb 2010
                              • 2180

                              Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                              Houses made of gold (or chocolate, the choice is yours) and just plain old righteous happy times.

                              How do you spell SDSM?
                              Is it Super Duper Sellout Macedonian? It sounds like you should join them and become their leader!
                              As stated elsewhere I like chocolate and coca cola so in your wonderful world would the chocolate houses have running coke.hahaha

                              But on a serious note the questions posed are real world situations and your answers on how you would address them in real world terms would clarify your position…we will just tell them to call us Macedonia. You make it sound so simple so it shouldn’t be to hard for you to give practical real world answers.

                              My questions are not limited to any one poster. Anyone who thinks they have the answers can tell the forum their real world solutions.

                              Comment

                              • Vangelovski
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 8530

                                Originally posted by OziMak View Post
                                Vangelovski I am curious if you could indulge the forum with a walkthrough with your idea so that we might better understand it.
                                Lets say for argument sake you are the Macedonian government.

                                1. As you say you would send everyone in the world a simple diplomatic note informing them that you would like your country to be referred to as Macedonia from now on.

                                2. What happens if they send you a simple diplomatic note back saying we don’t believe you and we do not want to call you Macedonia and will continue calling you fyrom.

                                3. Is point 2 a possibility or can they not do this and if not what force or law ect compels them not to be able to reject your simple diplomatic note.

                                4. Like the eu banned the sale of Macedonian wines in the eu with the name Macedonia on it and a glut emerged could they do this on other goods and if so would you accept a label fyrom on your products so they could be sold outside of Macedonia or would you insist Macedonia be put on the label even if it meant they could not be sold in the eu.

                                5. In the event of a glut in product would you sell them to say Serbia or Slovenia if they offered you a very cheap price for them so that they could process the raw ingredients into products and sell them as their own product.

                                6. If you would sell them cheaply what do you think the effect would be on the Macedonian economy
                                The living standard of the Macedonian population
                                The tax revenue lost and the governments ability to provide social services and other modernisation programs.

                                7. Do you think other countries like Russia or china will buy you product and will they give you a better price or will they buy raw ingredients only.

                                8. What about foreign investors in Macedonia turn to you and say their factories cannot sell the products with Macedonia on the label. Will you give them special dispensation or would you say too bad and if so what do you think will be the affect on the current and future foreign investment.

                                How do you see things working out in practical step by step terms.
                                Does anyone seriously believe this nonsensical stupidity needs a response?
                                Last edited by Vangelovski; 03-04-2011, 12:24 AM.
                                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                                Comment

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