Historians on the Ancient Macedonians

[Risto the Great]

A laughable comment? Not supported by any eminent historians?

Professor Paul Cartledge wrote this for a Greek Newspaper. I will not comment on whether he was paid for the article.

It's very difficult today to classify precisely the language of the ancient Macedonians, because so few examples of it have been preserved. But two things about it are reasonably certain, or at least agreed among the experts. It was basically a dialect of Greek, but so interlarded with words of non-Greek, mainly Thracian origin that not just because of accent but also because of vocabulary it could be incomprehensible to speakers of 'standard' Greek dialects. For example, Alexander himself when under the stress of huge emotion is recorded as speaking 'in Macedonian'.

I will let you look up the author.

So "Greeks" would not have been able to understand Macedonians.
Perhaps like Germans and English speakers.
Perhaps like French and Romanian speakers.
Who knows?
Nobody knows.
You (especially) don't know.

The professor wrote that in a Geek newspaper and the Greeks were patting themselves on their backs. A big LOL to the Greeks.

Leo (the lying, not Lion) please put your dissertation here. I honestly need some humour in my life right now.

[sydney]

Leo relies a lot on the argument of language, that Macedonians spoke Greek, or a form of it, and therefore the entire Macedonian people were Greek. However, there is no consensus amongst the writers of the day on whether the Macedonians were Greek or not, and no linguist could possibly declare one or the other considering we have only isolated Macedonian words with no context or inflexion. Furthermore, some of these appear to be connected to Greek, some appear to have no connection to Greek, and some appear to be beyond the form of a Greek dialect.

From a genealogical standpoint, do we assume the Macedonian royal family represents the entire Macedonian people or not?

Was it not usual, for the day, to refer to an alien people/culture as barbarian?

We can rally from the baseline all day if you wish.

[Poligiros]

Leo relies a lot on the argument of language, that Macedonians spoke Greek, or a form of it, and therefore the entire Macedonian people were Greek. some appear to have no connection to Greek, and some appear to be beyond the form of a Greek dialect.


We can rally from the baseline all day if you wish.

Can anyone on this forum please show any valid or reputable ancient Macedonian words or inscriptions that have "no connection to Greek or appear to be beyond the form of a Greek dialect"? I have not yet been able to find any?

[Risto the Great]

Can anyone on this forum please show any valid or reputable ancient Macedonian words or inscriptions that have "no connection to Greek or appear to be beyond the form of a Greek dialect"? I have not yet been able to find any?

Poli, you saw what I quoted from an eminent historian who had to admit the following notwithstanding he is on the Greek payroll:

It's very difficult today to classify precisely the language of the ancient Macedonians, because so few examples of it have been preserved.

Given the ruling elite started to use Attic Greek in the 5th century BC as an administrative language, I would imagine some Greek words found their way into the ancient Macedonian language over the next few hundred years. Yet in Alexander's time, the poor Greeks STILL could not understand him when he spoke Macedonian.

Here it is:

but so interlarded with words of non-Greek, mainly Thracian origin that not just because of accent but also because of vocabulary it could be incomprehensible to speakers of 'standard' Greek dialects.

Take it up with Cartledge and ask him if he deserves to be on the Greek payroll given the fighting words he uses here.

Only a stupid Greek would imagine the ancient Macedonians spoke pure Greek and that it was understood by all.

[Poligiros]

Poli, you saw what I quoted from an eminent historian who had to admit the following notwithstanding he is the Greek payroll:

Yet in Alexander's time, the poor Greeks STILL could not understand him when he spoke Macedonian.

Here it is:


Only a stupid Greek would imagine the ancient Macedonians spoke pure Greek and that it was understood by all.

Greetings wise Risto....

I must be a "Stupid Greek", because I have not been able to find any inscribed evidence to the contrary (I have googled thousands of texts throughout the years) presenting ancient Macedonian as anything other than a loose Greek dialect?

I am happy to be proved incorrect, if anyone can provide evidence or an inscription for further discussion and analysis. Out of context statements like "Alexander spoke in Macedonian", whilst factually correct, doesn't translate to "Macedonian" being a magical exclusive language.

[sydney]

Poligiros, you will lean on the low probability equations of your linguists which derive unclear outcomes based on Greek words, and all of a sudden they must be Greek, or a Greek dialect or a loose dialect as you put it, or whatever fits the agenda.

[Risto the Great]

Greetings wise Risto....

I must be a "Stupid Greek"

You must be.

[maco2envy]

First time I’ve seen anyone post their academic transcripts on a forum…

I would say that the Romans and Ottomans were imperial rulers and not colonisers

How did you manage to pass your Byzantine history subject?

Good job on finding historians who state that the Macedonians were not Greek, I concede that some may have this view. It's certainly a minority opinion however

History is not a science and it will never be. A hypothesis in history cannot be tested, especially if it’s based on events that occurred 2000+ years ago. In science, minorities whom are against certain theories that are widely accepted are generally frowned upon, but in this case it is because they’re clenching on to a hypothesis which has tiny p-value, i.e highly unlikely in experimental setting. In science you can measure such things, unlike history. So, I’d personally see that in the context of history, reasonable ideas that conflict with something which widely accepted should be treated with the same amount of respect because as I said it before, validity of historical theories cannot be measured.

Also, you probably should’ve paid more attention to the subject ‘Europe 1793-1999’, maybe could have done some extra study about the state of the Balkans around this time, that alone is enough to end the Macedonia-Greece Dispute fiasco. In addition, starting with the year after the French Republic was founded (1792), should have opened your eyes about the meaning of nationalism and more specifically what exactly is a nation.

And lastly, a question for you Leo. Just out of curiosity, what exactly is the job prosperity in doing a bachelor of arts/history degree? Anything that you can potentially contribute to the welfare of society? Or is just something to make your opinion seem more valid on internet forums?

[DraganOfStip]

Why does everyone keep entertaining these trolls?
Do we have to post the same things over and over again every time some Greek clown shows up and starts provoking?
Admins should just point out the relevant links to these guys so that they can see for themselves, there are heaps of arguments on this forum about this, it's been debated and debated over and over.
It's like a never-ending loophole that we keep going back to.

[Karposh]

Why does everyone keep entertaining these trolls?
Do we have to post the same things over and over again every time some Greek clown shows up and starts provoking?
Admins should just point out the relevant links to these guys so that they can see for themselves, there are heaps of arguments on this forum about this, it's been debated and debated over and over.
It's like a never-ending loophole that we keep going back to.

Agreed. As a matter of fact, I was about to reply to that very same clown that you just spoke of but decided against it because of the same reasons you just mentioned.

[vicsinad]

Why does everyone keep entertaining these trolls?
Do we have to post the same things over and over again every time some Greek clown shows up and starts provoking?
Admins should just point out the relevant links to these guys so that they can see for themselves, there are heaps of arguments on this forum about this, it's been debated and debated over and over.
It's like a never-ending loophole that we keep going back to.

Good point. I think I'm now just infatuated, like others on here, that he needed to prove that he obtained a university degree. Walking a fine line between pride and narcissism.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Tomche - You think it's wrong to cite historians as evidence? Why do you think that? These are people who have examined all of the primary evidence. I do not mean to be rude but why would you or anyone on this forum know any better?

Clearly you missed the entire point of my statement which was that asserting your opinion as being correct simply on the account that a supposed majority of academics currently support a similar view, is an inherently false argument as further discoveries, research, new evidence and intellectual debate based on sound reasoning and objective analysis can alter views on any particular matter as is evidenced throughout history (even in subjects that may have previously held a unanimous consensus). The recent reclassification of Pluto is a prime example of how academic views can change in modern times based on these factors, and that was in the scientific field of astronomy as opposed to a field such as history whose scientific proponents can be seldom analysed without a degree of ideological and political bias (intentional or not).

When Galileo championed Heliocentricism (that the Earth orbits the sun), the “intellectual” authorities all held an opposite (more traditional) view and ultimately considered his minority view to be wrong. Arguing the case that Galileo was indeed wrong solely based on the fact that the majority of his contemporaries and authorities held an opposite view, which parallels the same type of argument Greek Drones try to make with their supposed 70+ academics, is logically and intellectually flawed and without substance, since, as is common knowledge today, the authorities were proven wrong as Galileo was in fact correct, hence why I stated that the reliance on Greek drones these days on this type of argument as somehow “proving” their view is correct is getting to be rather pathetic. The fact that alternate arguments exist and have been readily published among a sizeable amount of academics on the supposed “Greekness” of the ancient Macedonians is proof that the primary evidence on the matter is far from clear cut and that academic opinion can be considered divided on the subject, to infer otherwise is intellectually dishonest and indicative of a biased agenda.

Let's ignore the historians then and turn to evidence. Do you have any evidence that the Macedonians did not speak Greek? From what I understand the only reference to a Macedonian language is when Alexander "shouted in Macedonian".

That's meaningless though,

Sure, just discard any evidence which contradicts your agenda, is this what those lecturers at KCL taught you?

I am not claiming that Modern Greeks are 100% the same as Ethnic Greeks.

Right, I’m not sure what you’re trying to claim with that sentence either, but perhaps you can clarify:
What is a Modern Greek?
What is an ethnic Greek?
How are they 100% not the same?

I was told by vicsinad that Modern Greeks have nothing to do with Ancient. I am simply telling him that genocide would have had to occurred for that to happen.

So are we to understand that by this, you believe that when the supposed Slavs migrated to Macedonia (and evidently came to dominate the entire Haemus Peninsula) the original inhabitants of these areas simply assimilated with them?

You claim to be the descendants of the Ancient Macedonians yet likewise state that Modern Greeks are completely unrelated to the Ancient? That's completely illogical considering you were ruled by the same empire.

So Greeks and Macedonians are the same then when it comes to our ancestry with the ancients?

I have been to Pella and spoke Greek to the locals. Care to tell me why my statement is a cracker?

Are you being serious here?, did you even read what I wrote?

Even if the Ancient Macedonians were not Greek,

Hold on did you just accept the possibility that Ancient Macedonians weren’t Greek?, I’m not the only one reading this right?

we know that they eventually spoke Koine Greek

So they took on Koine Greek secondary to their original native tongue, which was not Greek, I can’t believe what I’m reading! (by the way, no one here denies that the Ancient Macedonians, particularly the Aristocracy, knew how to speak Koine Greek, being the lingua franca of the time, as a secondary or administrative language)

and were accepted as Greek by the time of Strabo.

Were accepted as Greeks by who exactly?

Regardless of their original ethnicity,

So you accept that their original ethnicity could have been something other than Greek, and believe that ethnicities can in fact change?

Macedonia was eventually accepted to be part of Greece

Um don’t you mean the ancient Hellenic states were accepted to be part of Macedonia?, who exactly do you think did the conquering?, Athens or Macedonia?, or are we jumping from ancient to modern times now?

and their descendants have been part of the Greek world ever since and live in modern-day Macedonia, in Greece.

And just like that, conveniently, we somehow managed to completely skip the accounts of 2,000 years between the ancient times and modern times. What a nice little enormously selective and fictional package you have created. I mean whats 2,000 years of history, pfft, nothing at all could have remotely happened or changed during that period right?, I mean its clear when you refer to the "Greek World" you are referring to some type of alternate reality, distinct from the normal or natural world that the rest of us live in right?.

Are we expected to believe that they suddenly lost this Hellenic identity and became Slavic speaking?

Well by your own admission and reasoning, you did argue that ethnicities can in fact change, i.e. “Even if the Ancient Macedonians were not Greek we know that they eventually spoke Koine Greek and were accepted as Greek by the time of Strabo”, so clearly you do accept that such an occurrence is completely logical and indeed probable based on precedent.

What is your story? You guys are so intent on proving that the Macedonians were not Greek, but what claim do you have to them? We know for a fact that they did not speak Slavic.

Well I’m not sure, you guys keep changing your story whenever it suits your needs, one of the latest I’ve heard from you lot is that apparently Gruevski created us about 8 years ago, yet now you appear to have laid the case that it is probable the ancient Macedonians changed their supposed Hellenic ethnicity with a Slavic one when they assimilated with the Slavs during their supposed migration.

As for our intent, its pretty straight forward, to reveal the truth about Macedonia and the Macedonians, hence the name of the forum.

Simply calling yourselves Macedonians does not make you their descendants. I can call myself Spider-Man, it does not mean I suddenly become him.

I agree, hence our obligation to expose the falsehood and deceit when modern “Greeks” and former Christian Turks now try to claim that they are the Macedonians after dismally denying their existence for the past 100 years.

And with that, I think my patience has finally hit the wall. If this is the type of intellect Kings College London is supposedly selling these days, then I’d be demanding my money back, as it would appear any degree from there would not be worth the paper it’s written on when looking at your rationale as an example. In most instances you have completely missed or purposely ignored the basis and/or context of the points presented to you and have rather chosen to carry on like a barking dog fixated on pursuing his own tangent, contradicting your own arguments in the process (which is coincidentally a pillar of the Greek Drone mentality). This does not represent a desire for intellectual dialogue, and as such I don’t see any reason why you should be afforded one by any of the forum participants here.

With that in mind, I still agree with Risto, put your dissertation on Alexander here, assuming this is the standard of rationale we are to expect, I suspect it to be quite spectacular.

I mean in the end, honestly, based on your conveyed beliefs, there’s really no need for any animosity between two ethnically English chaps like you and myself, arguing over distant foreigners such as Macedonians and Greeks should be taken with a grain of salt, it’s not like we’ve had a few pint’s and got into a debate about the EPL, let me guess, you’re a Chelsea fan right?, c’mon then, lets have a look see at your paper.

Good job on finding historians who state that the Macedonians were not Greek, I concede that some may have this view. It's certainly a minority opinion however.

Do you know who else were originally considered a minority opinion? the academics who argued the reclassification of Pluto, how many planets do we consider to be in our solar system today?

[Tomche Makedonche]

Why does everyone keep entertaining these trolls?
Do we have to post the same things over and over again every time some Greek clown shows up and starts provoking?
Admins should just point out the relevant links to these guys so that they can see for themselves, there are heaps of arguments on this forum about this, it's been debated and debated over and over.
It's like a never-ending loophole that we keep going back to.

Why cut my nails?, they'll only grow back...

[Gocka]

The part that really infuriates me is that Macedonians seem to be the only ethnic group on earth that needs to prove a 3000 year lineage in order to be accepted as a unique ethnic group.

No one gives the French any shit for being a mix of god only knows how many tribes in one nation, and naming their nation after an ethnic group that was wiped out centuries before the nation was formed, and the Franks were a Germanic tribe to boot. Its the same story with every country in Europe.

They all get a pass, they were allowed to form ethnicites with the birth of nationalism, a mere few hundred years ago, but no, Macedonians cant be Macedonians based on the events of a few hundred years ago, we can't use our nationalist consciousness as a reason to be an ethnic group, we need to prove that at the time of the big bang that we were different from all the other atoms in space, because of course all the atoms spoke Greek, and the sun was Greek, actually all of space was technically a part of ancient Greece.

[Risto the Great]

To be honest, the ancient Greeks were quite fascinating.
To be equally honest, the modern Greeks aren't.