The Ancient Macedonian Language

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai
    There is absolutely no evidence that Prhygians continued to dwell in Macedonia as late as in 4th BC century.Some of them might have remained in Macedonia after the Asia Minor migration.......
    Here we go again with this circus of yours. Do you even read your own babble? Or is hypocrisy a genetical issue you've inherited?
    ......maybe the Macedonian tendency of deaspiration of Proto IE bh*,dh" and gh" and their conversion to b,d and g,which many scholars attribute to Phrygian influence.
    That Macedonian tendency is shared by ALL Paleo-Balkan languages, meaning all languages in the Balkans -except Greek. I love the new spin though, that Macedonians apparently adopted this from the Phrygians, let me guess, before this supposed 'influence' the Macedonians were speaking "pure" Greek, lol, give me a break. Who are these "many" scholars that corroborate what you've said above? What is their opinion on the Macedonian language prior to this imaginary adoption?
    Phrygian was certainly a centum language like ancient Macedonian,while modern Macedonian is satem.
    Phrygian shares some key words with modern Macedonian and the Slavic languages, for example, compare 'bog' for God with Phrygian 'bagaios', and 'grad, gorod' for a city with Phrygian 'gordion'. Your centum hopes rest on loanwords from Greek and early PIE words that didn't undergo satemisation in Macedonian and Phrygian. Balto-Slavic languages also retained certain centum features in some words, such as 'kamen' for rock (as opposed to 'asam' in Thracian), as did Illyrian with people called both Gentius and Zanatis. Wow!
    Most Modern linguistics.....hold the view that Phrygian was the language that was closer to Greek than any other,so that they speak of a common Greco-phrygian group that existed till 2.600 BC:
    Most or some? There is no such thing as 'Helleno' (let alone 'Greco') anything until around 800 BC when Homer first makes brief mention of them in the Iliad. The term is inaccurate. Perhaps the Indo-European Mycenaeans did share certain commonalities with Phrygian (and other Paleo-Balkan languages for that matter), but at some point during the 12th century BC devastation and chaos reigned supreme in the south of Europe, which resulted in a markedly different picture to the previous one, particularly in the regions which would later be called Hellas. Paleo-Balkan languages (in addition to today's Balto-Slavic languages) such as Thracian appear more Indo-European than the Greek language, which has a significant non Indo-European or 'unidentifiable' component that can't be disregarded.
    However we know Philotas certainly spoke Macedonian (regardless of whether it was a Greek dialect or not) since in the same chapter Alexander asks him if he "intends to speak in their native dialect".It would be meaningless to ask that question if Philotas didn't speak Macedonian.So the accusation "he does not blush to hear his own country men by an interpreter" should be considered as a mockery of Philotas towards the most rustic of his soldiers,like his habit to call them "Sapient Phrygians" and "Eloquent Paphlagonians".
    That is the most ridiculous piece of garbage I have read from you to date. The fact that he required an interpreter meant that the Macedonian language was no longer comprehensible enough for him, due to his adoption of Greek as a primary tongue. His reference to them as Phrygians could just as easily be understood as a connection to the 'older' strata of Macedonian society, apparently 'less' civilised than the foreign Greeks whom he came to admire.
    It's obvious that Philotas suffered of the complex of cultural superiority and in all probability he imitated the attitude of highly educated Athenians who despised as "barbarians" even other Greeks who spoke different dialects instead of Attic
    This is a case of Macedonian to Macedonian, can you show me Athenians "despising" Athenians as 'barbarians'?
    IMHO,the entire story of Philotas' trial is invented by Curtius Rufus,since it is not mentioned by any other of the chief historians of Alexander's life like Plutarch,Arrian and Diodorus,whose works are based on genuine and contemporary accounts.
    Even among Arrian, Plutarch and Diodorus there are some recorded incidents that aren't mentioned by others. Your only basis to reject the Philotas story is because it contradicts your own bizzare theories on Macedonian origins.
    It's full of self-contradictions and inconsistencies:Alexander is allegedly pissed off with Philotas and accuses him that "he rejects his country's dialect",however Alexander himself has spoken before in Attic Greek too,instead of Macedonian!
    You're way more self-contradicting and inconsistent than Curtius Rufus. Furthermore, you're a compulsive liar. Rufus doesn't refer to some "country's dialect", and Alexander's intentions are rather obvious in requesting that Philotas address the Macedonians in their native tongue - he wanted to limit the amount of people in the audience from understanding what was being said - Philotas, on the other hand, specifically chose Greek to ensure that more people could understand.
    Here is another self-contradiction of Curtius Rufus.In some other chapter he says the language of common Macedonian soldiers,or the lower class,as you put it,had a similarity with the dialect of Miletus:

    21 He is now near an inconsiderable city inhabited by the Branchidae. Their ancestors had betrayed to Xerxes, retiring from Greece, the treasures under their charge, as priests of the Didymean Apollo; and by him had been transplanted from Miletus to this settlement. The Branchids had not forsaken the customs, though they had degenerated from the language, of their original country, gradually mingling with it a foreign dialect. With extreme joy they meet the king and with themselves surrender their city. Alexander convened all the Milesians in his army.The Milesians inherited the ancient feud against the race of the Branchidae. Nevertheless,empowered by their liberator to decide, whether the crime of the ancestors, or the Grecian blood of the descendants should now be remembered, they could not agree in opinion. He then declared that he would advise with himself. When the parties met the next day he commanded them to proceed with him to the town .He entered one gate with a light division, ordering the phalanx to surround the place and at a signal to pillage that receptacle of traitors and slay the race to an individual. In all directions unarmed people are butchered,nor can SIMILARITY OF LANGUAGE nor the veils held up by kneeling suppliants nor the prayer "Have mercy" stop one inhuman sword.The walls are dug up from the foundations that not a trace of the city might remain.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=v3IIAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA173
    You do know how to read, don't you? He doesn't say anything about the language of the common soldiers, he refers to the Milesians who were integrated into the Phalanx, their hatred for the Branchidae, and the similarity of their language, which is Greek. Alexander made the decision and had one group of 'Grecians' butcher another. The passage is clearly in reference to them, and not the Macedonians, who aren't even mentioned.
    It's noteworthy that Alexander had in his Indian campaign only Macedonian troops because the Greek ones were dismissed some time ago and returned to Greece apart from few who stayed in Persia.
    Most were, but there were a few that remained, such as Eumenes, and there were also some Greek architects, artists, writers, etc that accompanied the Macedonians during their campaign.
    I think most scholars have properly translated μακεδονίζοντας (participle,accusative plural) and μακεδονίζειν (infinitive) as a reference to Macedonian dialect or idiom.First we should have examinded whether ancient Greek authors used identical participles and infinitives for other Greek dialects too or it was the case only with Macedonian or non-Greek languages in general.
    Even if it was used for Hellenic dialects, the Hellenic language in general, and non-Hellenic languages also, you can't produce anything that specifically designates Macedonian as a Hellenic 'dialect' itself, because it wasn't.
    'The precise sense of "speaking Macedonian" in these and other passages can be and has been debated; yet when these references to Macedonian speech are considered in their context, it is not difficult for one to conclude that what is being reported is the use of a distinct, non-Greek (i.e., "barbarian") Macedonian language.'

    Woodward, R.D., (ed.) The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World's Ancient Languages, Cambridge, 2004
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      Agamoi, can you provide a credible link to this text from Curtius Rufus:


      "Holy shadows of the dead, I’m not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions."

      (Addressing the dead Greeks of the Battle of Chaeronea, as quoted in “Historiae Alexandri Magni”, 6.3.11)
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Akzion
        Banned
        • Nov 2010
        • 93

        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
        Agamoi, can you provide a credible link to this text from Curtius Rufus:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Curtius_Rufus
        As far as I have searched I couldn't locate such text. It's not in [6,3,11] or anywhere. However distorted the above translation may be, I believe I would have found it, if it existed, in the original Latin text (which is available on-line).
        Since this supposedly comes from the Yardley & Atkinson book, one should seek there. Maybe it's from notes or from another book (it's not Curtius Rufus).

        PS: I also removed it from Wikipedia.
        Last edited by Akzion; 01-22-2011, 06:13 AM.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          Thanks Akzion, for years this quote has been paraded in Greek websites and other sites leading back to Greek websites, including Wikipedia, who have basically zero credibility - and not once has it been verified. I doubt it is in the Yardley & Atkinson book, I have read it a few times and never came across it. Like I have said in the past, I am happy to be proven wrong on this if somebody could verify the quote.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Akzion
            Banned
            • Nov 2010
            • 93

            Except for forums, reproducing this phrase, I could only find that:
            Pressfield’s study of parallel tactics used by Alexander the Great’s cavalry units and Rommel’s Panzerarmee inspired Killing Rommel. Alexander's words offer a fitting valediction for the men of both sides forced to fight and kill those who might otherwise have been comrades: “Holy shadows of the dead, I am not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people to fight one another.” (2008, 331 pages, with maps)
            A review by Annis of the historical novel Killing Rommel by Steven Pressfield, set during WWII


            Since Steven Pressfield wrote a novel on Alexander the Great (The virtues of War, 2004), maybe he has something to do with it.
            Last edited by Akzion; 01-22-2011, 08:27 AM.

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              Originally posted by Akzion View Post
              Except for forums, reproducing this phrase, I could only find that:

              A review by Annis of the historical novel Killing Rommel by Steven Pressfield, set during WWII


              Since Steven Pressfield wrote a novel on Alexander the Great (The virtues of War, 2004), maybe he has something to do with it.
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Pressfield
              It may be a fictional quote that was somehow mixed up with historical quotes, deliberate or accidently, I don't know, but it has certainly been flashed around. Those among both our peoples that do this sort of thing are counter-productive.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Agamoi Thytai
                Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 198

                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                Here we go again with this circus of yours. Do you even read your own babble? Or is hypocrisy a genetical issue you've inherited?
                My point was clear:Most Phrygians migrated to Asia Minor.Those few that might have remained were easily assimilated in 3-4 generations and thus in Alexander's time they were not around.Neither Herodotus,over a century before Alexander's reign,
                nor any of the later authors mentioned ever Phrygians were still in Macedonia:

                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                That Macedonian tendency is shared by ALL Paleo-Balkan languages, meaning all languages in the Balkans -except Greek. I love the new spin though, that Macedonians apparently adopted this from the Phrygians, let me guess, before this supposed 'influence' the Macedonians were speaking "pure" Greek, lol, give me a break. Who are these "many" scholars that corroborate what you've said above? What is their opinion on the Macedonian language prior to this imaginary adoption?
                This aspirated-deaspirated mess is just a triffle in comparison with all the other available evidence of the epigraphical material of excavations of the last 25-30 years.Already in 1906 the German linguist Otto Hoffmann wrote:

                The final result of our investigation on Macedonian personal names can be briefly summarized as follows: The names of the genuine Macedonians and those born of Macedonian parents, especially the names of the elite class and nobles,are purely Greek in their formation and phonology.They show dialectical coloration and seem to be closely related to Thessalian names.So there is not even the slightest doubt about the Greek general character of Macedonian personal names,although some names might have been borrowed from the Greek heroic tradition and a very small proportion even derives from legends of non-Greek,more specifically pre-Greek peoples (e.g. Τεύταμος,Μαρσύας,Σειληνός and few other).And that's so because these two sources have contributed as well to the enrichment of the personal names list not only in Macedonia but also in Greece itself.The Greek name is in his phonology and the laws of it’s formation so different from Thracian and Illyrian names that the theory that Greco-Macedonian names form an "intermediate" between Greek and Thracian is completely unthinkable.Whoever does not consider the Macedonians as Greeks must also conclude that by the 6th and 5th centuries BC the Macedonians had completely given up the original names of their nation - without any need to do so - and taken Greek names in order to demonstrate their admiration for Greek civilization.I think it not worth the trouble to demolish such a notion; for any hypothesis of historical linguists which is put forward without taking into account the actual life of a people, s condemned as it were out of its own mouth.

                This was a century ago,when historians like Hoffmann who considered ancient Macedonians as Greek were not the majority,however things have rapidly changed from 1906 till nowadays:

                Scholarship has long been divided on the question of whether these people were really Greeks - certainly the Greeks at the time were reluctant to give them status as true Hellenes. The Macedonian language has not survived in any extant text,but their personal and place names,and the names of their gods strongly suggest a Greek dialect.Scholars are now more or less agreed that they were one group of many Dorian tribes that had made their way into Greece from the Balkans in successive waves probably from as early as the eleventh century BC.


                “Indeed, it has become clear from the inscribed stelai at Vergina which Andronikos has found recently,that the fathers of Philip's Macedonians had entirely Greek names,and we may deduce that their parents spoke Greek at the beginning of the fourth century.What then of earlier times? Hesiod certainly thought them to be Greek-speaking; otherwise he would not have made Magnes and Macedon into cousins of Dorus, Xouthus and Aeolus,who were the eponymous ancestors of the three main forms of the Greek language (Dorian, Ionian and Aeolian).Hellanicus, writing late in the fifth century,made Macedon a son of Aeolus; he would not have done so unless he had supposed the Macedones to be speakers of some form of Aeolic Greek.As the twin people,the Magnetes,did speak an Aeolic dialect (this we know from inscriptions),there is no good reason to deny that the Macedones spoke an Aeolic dialect,retarded indeed and broad…”
                The emergence of the Greek world from the Dark Ages to the height of its Geometric civilization was described in The Cambridge Ancient History Volume III Part I. Volume III Part III explores the new prosperity and growth of the young city-states in the eighth to the sixth centuries B.C. This was the great period of expansion and colonization which saw the establishment of Greek city-states from the Western Mediterranean to the Black Sea. This volume describes the East and Egypt, the importance of West Greece and the Aegean islands in trading and exploration, the special characteristics of the societies which were established by colonization. While societies outside the mainstream of expansion and trade retained their old institutions, those at the centre changed rapidly and the period was a time of warfare in mainland Greece. Athens is seen developing into a leading state under the influence of the reforms of Solon and assessment of the social, economic and material history of Greece during these years.


                Though a body of authentic Macedonian words has been assembled from ancient sources,mainly from coin inscriptions and from the 5th century lexicon of Hesychius of Alecxandria,amounting to about 150 words and 200 proper names.Most of these are confidently identifiable as Greek,but some of them are not easily reconciled with standard Greek phonology.
                A Grammar of Modern Indo-European is a complete reference guide to a modern, revived Indo-European language. It contains a comprehensive description of Proto-Indo-European grammar and offers an analysis of the complexities of the prehistoric language and its reconstruction. Written in a fresh and accessible style, this book focuses on the real patterns of use in a modern Europe's Indo-European language. The book is well organized and is filled with full, clear explanations of areas of confusion and difficulty. It also includes an extensive bilingual dictionary, etymological notes, and numbered paragraphs designed to provide readers easy access to the information they require. An essential reference source for the learner and user of Indo-European, this book will be the standard work for years to come.


                Now if you wonder how these scholars are so confident on the affinity between Aeolodoric/northwestern Greek and Macedonian,the answer is to be found after a thorough examination of all available Macedonian inscriptions.Despite the adoption and use of Attic from Philip’s time and onwards,few traces of Doric/Aeolic pronounciation that survive in some instances can be explained only if we accept these were the real features of native Macedonian speech.Two small examples:On the first ancient Macedonian inscription (350 BC) there are written two female names,Λυσιδίκα and Βερενίκας (gen. of Βερενίκα).These names have Doric/Aeolic endings in –α instead of proper Attic in –η:

                In proper Attic these names should be Λυσιδίκη (Lysidike) and Berenike:






                The –ίκα ending as in Βερενίκα is clearly a Doric/Aeolic ending:


                Second inscription,from 2nd or 1st BC century:


                The female name Ἁδίστας (gen. of Ἁδίστα,) is actually the Doric/Aeolic variant of Attic Ἡδίστη, (Hediste, literally “sweetest”):



                Here is the name attested in its “proper Attic” form,i.e. Hediste:
                "Fowler's . . . own insights are apparent throughout, and they seem to distill the personal appreciation and understanding of a scholar who has devoted much of her career to both contemplating and enjoying Hellenistic poetry. . . . [This book] would make an excellent background text for courses in later Greek and Roman art, and it can be read with profit by anyone interested in exploring the character of Hellenistic culture."--J. J. Pollitt, American Journal of Archaeology "Outstanding is the range of examples discussed both in poetry and art. Theocritus, Callimachus, Appolonius, the epigrammatists, and others--that is, the major figures of the time--are considered at length and in several different contexts. Passages are quoted in the original Greek, translated, and analyzed. Fowler's sensitivity to poetic forms, evident in her other published writings, is again evident here. In addition, however, the philosophical context is not overlooked. . . . Also highly commendable are the liberal references to works of art. Sculpture in the round and in relief, portraits, terracotta figurines, original paintings (grave stelai) and Campanian murals, mosaics, gold and silver vessels, and jewelry are introduced at various points. Every work of art discussed is illustrated in astonishingly clear photographs, which are interspersed in the body of the text."--Christine Mitchell Havelock "The Hellenistic Aesthetic provides classicists with their first thorough discussion of the aesthetic unity found in Hellenistic art and literature. . . . Fowler examines parallels both in subject matter and in artistic approach among a diverse group of literary genres and artistic forms. In twelve chapters, The Hellenistic Aesthetic surveys Alexandrian epigrams, pastorals, epics, sculptural groups, mosaics, paintings, and jewelry to supply a convincing, and frequently unexpected, picture of a unified aesthetic vision."--Jeffrey Buller, Classical Outlook


                Note that Thessalians were themselves Aeolic speakers and should normally not use the Attic form.However the inscription is from Hellenistic time,when Koine has gradually started to replace all the other Greek dialects.Thus Macedonia was perhaps one of the few regions that still resisted koinezation to some degree,using still some traditional Doric/Aeolic names:


                Other Doric/Aeolic features in the same inscription are the words αὐτάν and καταφθιμέναν (deceased,fem.adj.accusative sing.).

                In proper Attic they should be αὐτήν and κατά-φθιμένην:


                However they display the typical Doric/Aeolic endings in –α instead of –η.This is clearly not an Attic/Koine feature:
                "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                Comment

                • Agamoi Thytai
                  Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 198

                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  Phrygian shares some key words with modern Macedonian and the Slavic languages, for example, compare 'bog' for God with Phrygian 'bagaios', and 'grad, gorod' for a city with Phrygian 'gordion'.
                  It’s normal for IE languages to share some cognates.Even between the most remote,i.e. Greek with Germanic languages,compare the words for numbers from 1 to 10,the words for father,mother,night e.t.c in English,German and Greek.Macedonian or other Slavic languages may share some key words with Phrygian,but I don’t think these shared words are much more than between Greek and Phrygian.Otherwise all these scholars would have mentioned it,if there was any remarkable similarity.As for “gordion”,i’m not sure but I think this word didn’t mean “city”,but there was a king Gordias or Gordios and the Phrygian capital was named after him:



                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  Your centum hopes rest on loanwords from Greek and early PIE words that didn't undergo satemisation in Macedonian and Phrygian. Balto-Slavic languages also retained certain centum features in some words, such as 'kamen' for rock (as opposed to 'asam' in Thracian), as did Illyrian with people called both Gentius and Zanatis. Wow! .
                  So some Illyrians used the centum variant (Gentius )while some other the satem variant (Zanatis)of the same name,but they wee both Illyrians.Same case with Macedonians who used deaspirated variants (Bilippos,Xandos) while other Greeks used aspirated forms (Philippos,Xanthos) of the same names.

                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  Paleo-Balkan languages (in addition to today's Balto-Slavic languages) such as Thracian appear more Indo-European than the Greek language, which has a significant non Indo-European or 'unidentifiable' component that can't be disregarded. .
                  So what?I don’t see any specific reason one should feel so proud about his pure IE heritage.Especially considering who have more contributed to world civilization,IE or non IE people?Ancient Greeks were certainly not pure IE;The southern Balkan peninsula was more densively inhabited by people of Mediterranean race,hence IE Greeks mixed to a great extend with them and this was the first seed for the great civilization that was to be born some centuries later,because these Mediterranean people were bearers of an already highly developed civilization,i.e. Minoan and Cycladic.
                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  That is the most ridiculous piece of garbage I have read from you to date. The fact that he required an interpreter meant that the Macedonian language was no longer comprehensible enough for him, due to his adoption of Greek as a primary tongue.
                  It seems highly improbable that one could no longer comprehend enough his native language in 4th BC,not only in Macedonia but anywhere else,unless he was raised up in some foreign land,or belonged to a conquered nation that was forced to speak a foreign language,which was not the case with Philotas
                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  You're way more self-contradicting and inconsistent than Curtius Rufus. Furthermore, you're a compulsive liar. Rufus doesn't refer to some "country's dialect",
                  That’s not a fair accusation!Page 120: .” “Mark”,cries the king,“how Philotas rejects his country's dialect,disdained only by himself.”

                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  and Alexander's intentions are rather obvious in requesting that Philotas address the Macedonians in their native tongue - he wanted to limit the amount of people in the audience from understanding what was being said - Philotas, on the other hand, specifically chose Greek to ensure that more people could understand.
                  But Curtius Rufus makes it clear that even if Philotas spoke Macedonian,non-Macedonians who were present could again understand him,even with some difficulty!He does nowhere say they would not understand him at all if he spoke Macedonian.Here is the whole passage:
                  The king,turning to him,said : "The Macedonians are to be your judges.I ask,whether you intend to use their native language?” Philotas answered :
                  “Besides the Macedonians,there are great numbers present,who I believe will understand me MORE READILY,if I use the same language in which yourself spoke,for no other reason,I apprehend, than that it was MORE INTELLIGIBLE to the majority.” “Mark”,cries the king,“how Philotas rejects his country's dialect,disdained only by himself.But let him adopt what tongue he pleases,so you remember that he equally abhors our manners and our speech”.


                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  You do know how to read, don't you? He doesn't say anything about the language of the common soldiers, he refers to the Milesians who were integrated into the Phalanx, their hatred for the Branchidae, and the similarity of their language, which is Greek. Alexander made the decision and had one group of 'Grecians' butcher another. The passage is clearly in reference to them, and not the Macedonians, who aren't even mentioned. .
                  On the contrary,the Milesians are nowhere mentioned as participating in the massacre.Curtius Rufus clearly says it was commited by the Macedonians,and Alexander did never integrate any Milesians or soldiers from any other Greek city into his phalanx:

                  Alexander called a meeting of the Milesians in his force,for the Milesians bore a longstanding grudge against the Branchidae as a clan.Since they were the people betrayed by the Branchidae.Alexander let them decide freely on their case,asking if they preferred to remember their injury or their common origin.But when there was a difference of opinion over this, he declared that he would himself consider the best course of action.
                  When THE BRANCHIDAE MET HIM the next day,he told them to accompany him.On reaching the city,he himself entered through the gate with a unit of light-armed troops.THE PHALANX HAD BEEN ORDERED to surround the city walls and.when the signal was given,TO SACK THIS CITY which provided refuge for traitors, KILLING THE INHABITANTS TO A MAN.The Branchidae,who were unarmed,were butchered throughout the city,and neither community of language nor the olive-branches and entreaties of the suppliants could curb the savagery.Finally THE MACEDONIANS DUG DOWN TO THE FOUNDATIONS of the walls in order to demolish them and leave not a single trace of the city”.




                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  Even if it was used for Hellenic dialects, the Hellenic language in general, and non-Hellenic languages also, you can't produce anything that specifically designates Macedonian as a Hellenic 'dialect' itself, because it wasn't.
                  There is also another possibility:At Athenaeus time (end of 2nd,beginning of 3rd AD century) the term “Macedonian” ended up denoting Koine Greek,because Macedonians (Alexander’s succesors) were responsible for the spread of Koine throughout Alexander’s empire:

                  “Very soon,therefore,the Koine becomes their language and,over time,μακεδονίζειν or μακεδονικός concerning language often refer simply to the common Koine (in relation to Attic standard). to the expansion of which the Macedonians were politically and culturally involved.”
                  (Très tôt,donc,la koiné est leur langue et,avec le temps,μακεδονίζειν ou μακεδονικός concernant la langue réfèrent souvent simplement à la koiné courante (par rapport au standard attique),.a l'expansion de laquelle les Macédoniens étaient associés politiquement et culturellement.)

                  Of course,Koine was viewed by pure Atticists as a degenerate form of Greek,containing a lot of foreign (mainly oriental) loanwords,hence it is used in that context,as contaminating the pure form of Attic.
                  "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                  Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                  Comment

                  • Agamoi Thytai
                    Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 198

                    Originally posted by Homer MakeDonski View Post
                    References for

                    could be over here :
                    _______________

                    All of it will state that there is not ancient Koine vanne -ianne record
                    There is not any record of an ancient koine word "vanne" for lamb,because koine was based on Attic and this word was not Attic.It probably derives from Laconian dialect,since Tzakonian,which saved the word "vanne" is the only modern Greek dialect that descends from ancient Laconian (whereas all other derive from Koine/Attic).However Hesychius from Alexandreia mentions a neuter adjective "βάννεια" which he interprets as "άρνεια"= (nomin.plural) those belonging/related to the lambs,and "βάννιμα" or "βάννινα" with the same meaning:

                    Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
                    Strymon, Struma, Astraeus, and Strumitza, seem to be all dialectic modifications of some original word of Macedonia, meaning river.

                    Travels in northern Greece, Volume 3 By William Martin Leake pages 466-468
                    William Martin Leake was not a linguist.Strymon is indeed related to English "stream",German "strom" e.t.c. however it is a Thracian name,not Macedonian.The area was inhabited by various Thracian tribes long before it was conquered by Macedonians in late 5th BC century.
                    "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                    Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                    Comment

                    • makedonche
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2008
                      • 3242

                      Agamoi
                      There is not any record of an ancient koine word "vanne" for lamb
                      Just because you can't find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

                      William Martin Leake was not a linguist.Strymon is indeed related to English "stream",German "strom" e.t.c. however it is a Thracian name,not Macedonian.The area was inhabited by various Thracian tribes long before it was conquered by Macedonians in late 5th BC century.
                      So we should just ignore everything he has to say?

                      The area was inhabited by various Thracian tribes long before it was conquered by Macedonians in late 5th BC century.
                      Post some irrevocable objectively sourced evidence before you make outlandish claims and unintelligible remarks!
                      On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

                      Comment

                      • makedonche
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2008
                        • 3242

                        Agamoi
                        Of course,Koine was viewed by pure Atticists as a degenerate form of Greek,containing a lot of foreign (mainly oriental) loanwords,hence it is used in that context,as contaminating the pure form of Attic.
                        Of course it was! Wev'e come to expect nothing less from Greeks, anything that doesn't fit into their view of the world or anything that can't be explained logically will inevitably get a Greek explanation tying to some Greek definition.
                        On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post
                          Most Phrygians migrated to Asia Minor.Those few that might have remained were easily assimilated in 3-4 generations and thus in Alexander's time they were not around.Neither Herodotus,over a century before Alexander's reign,nor any of the later authors mentioned ever Phrygians were still in Macedonia:
                          The Phrygian identity may have been lost but the people weren't. They simply identified as Macedonians. Philotas' reference to the more common and uneducated Macedonians in Alexander's army as Phrygians suggests a remnant still in use as a nickname.
                          This aspirated-deaspirated mess is just a triffle in comparison with all the other available evidence of the epigraphical material of excavations of the last 25-30 years.Already in 1906 the German linguist Otto Hoffmann wrote
                          No, it's not just a "triffle". It is a critical point and most of this "other available evidence" is not bonafide Macedonian evidence. Let's see what Hoffmann wrote:
                          The final result of our investigation on Macedonian personal names can be briefly summarized as follows: The names of the genuine Macedonians and those born of Macedonian parents, especially the names of the elite class and nobles,are purely Greek in their formation and phonology.
                          This is the obvious conclusion if one were to accept all Macedonian names written in Greek as the actual spelling and pronounciation. But not all were, despite stemming from a common PIE root or being loaned. The name Phillip would probably be rendered as Bilip in Macedonian and Pulp in Thracian (consisting of a devoiced stop), which means the former is a literary Greek interpretation of a foreign name that has been given an accompanying etymology due to possible phonological similarities. A similar example could probably be seen in the Persian name Bagabuxsha and its Greek interpretation of Megabyzus, although in this case only the root word appears to be Greek.

                          The name Phillip, along with others, would only start to be recorded from the 5th and 4th centuries BC by Greek writers; relating specifically to Macedonians. Even if it was assumed that such names had a Greek origin, it would indicate cultural interaction and influence at the very most, as Macedonians do not have a Greek origin. There are other examples that can be cited in parallel; the Irish and their extensive use of the English language and Anglo or Anglocised names, the Jews and their development of Yiddish from German dialects and the use of German names, etc. Both the Irish and Jews had a literary tradition yet still opted for a foreign tongue due to socio-political circumstances. The Macedonian adoption of Greek loanwords and names, therefore, is, comparatively, quite an acceptable scenario.
                          They show dialectical coloration and seem to be closely related to Thessalian names.
                          Macedonia had neighbours in Thessaly, colonies on its coast, and relations with Athens and some other city-states, this is how Greek influence was possible. The Thracians and Illyrians were no different, except that the Macedonians asserted themselves more than all other peoples that surrounded them, and as a result, interacted with the Greeks on a more intricate level.
                          Whoever does not consider the Macedonians as Greeks must also conclude that by the 6th and 5th centuries BC the Macedonians had completely given up the original names of their nation - without any need to do so - and taken Greek names in order to demonstrate their admiration for Greek civilization.
                          That is a rather simplistic take on it. There was certainly an appetite for the adoption of further Greek cultural elements from the time of Alexander I 'Philhellene', but prior to that time, the limit of Greek influence in Macedonia was the same as that in Thrace and Illyria. Given Alexander's predisposition towards Greek culture and the influence he wielded as a ruler over his domains and its nobility, it isn't difficult to see how a large-scale adoption through cultural interaction could have transpired, and much of this may also have been supported by religious commonalities. That would make it a similar situation as that of today; several Macedonians have names that derive from Greek as a result of religious commonalities (Orthodox Christianity). It would be naive to think that every single Macedonian name in the ancient period was recorded in a Greek text, there are bound to be more names that have gone unrecorded; although Greek or Greek-sounding names appear to have been given preference in literature.
                          Scholars are now more or less agreed that they were one group of many Dorian tribes that had made their way into Greece from the Balkans in successive waves probably from as early as the eleventh century BC.
                          There is no evidence of a Greek origin for Macedonians, there is no evidence of Macedonians being Dorian tribes, or that they made successive waves into Greece during the 11th century BC (at a time when Greece didn't even exist). It's speculation based on a misguided belief that the Macedonians have to be Greek.
                          Hesiod certainly thought them to be Greek-speaking; otherwise he would not have made Magnes and Macedon into cousins of Dorus, Xouthus and Aeolus,who were the eponymous ancestors of the three main forms of the Greek language (Dorian, Ionian and Aeolian).
                          Nowhere does Hesiod refer to Macedon as a Greek.
                          Hellanicus, writing late in the fifth century,made Macedon a son of Aeolus; he would not have done so unless he had supposed the Macedones to be speakers of some form of Aeolic Greek.As the twin people,the Magnetes,did speak an Aeolic dialect (this we know from inscriptions),there is no good reason to deny that the Macedones spoke an Aeolic dialect,retarded indeed and broad…
                          From Doric to Aeolic? Another ridiculous twist to the inconsistent 'theory'. Hellanicus wrote what he did purely to establish a direct connection with the Greek 'epynomous ancestors', which, in fact, proves that the 'Macedon and Magnes' story cited by Hesiod does not connect the Macedonians to the Greeks. Important also is the fact that Hellanicus lived at the Macedonian court for a period of time so the motive for his actions are rather obvious.
                          On the first ancient Macedonian inscription (350 BC) there are written two female names,Λυσιδίκα and Βερενίκας (gen. of Βερενίκα).These names have Doric/Aeolic endings in –α instead of proper Attic in –η:

                          In proper Attic these names should be Λυσιδίκη (Lysidike) and Berenike
                          In Macedonian and all other Slavic languages the same female ending a would also be used for such a name, and the ika suffix is not unfamiliar either, particularly in palatalised form itsa or iche. Berenika could easily have been a native Paleo-Balkan characteristic similar to Serdika or Sardika (Greek: Sardiki), which became Sreditsa or Sredets in the Slavic languages.
                          The –ίκα ending as in Βερενίκα is clearly a Doric/Aeolic ending
                          The -ika ending in Berenika comes from the word nika.
                          Macedonian or other Slavic languages may share some key words with Phrygian,but I don’t think these shared words are much more than between Greek and Phrygian.Otherwise all these scholars would have mentioned it,if there was any remarkable similarity.
                          They don't mention it because the hypothesis of a connection between the Paleo-Balkan and Balto-Slavic languages has been generally ignored and naively disregarded by western scholarship, while eastern scholarship, which has often supported such a connection, tends to be equally as exclusivist in their own perceptions. My views are located somewhere in the middle.
                          As for “gordion”,i’m not sure but I think this word didn’t mean “city”,but there was a king Gordias or Gordios and the Phrygian capital was named after him
                          What else could it mean? There was a king and a city by that name, and the root gord is the same as that in Proto Slavic and probably even Proto Balto-Slavic. It is interesting how this PIE word appears in different languages, and may be indicative of stages in development. While in Macedonian and other Slavic languages the root grad or gorod would be associated with the initial meaning of something being enclosed, hence zagradi for 'surround', grad or gorod for 'city', gradina for 'garden', etc, in Latin and Greek the use of the cognate root hort seems to be more related to derivative meanings such as Latin hortus for 'garden' and Greek horto for 'grass'.
                          So some Illyrians used the centum variant (Gentius )while some other the satem variant (Zanatis)of the same name,but they wee both Illyrians.Same case with Macedonians who used deaspirated variants (Bilippos,Xandos) while other Greeks used aspirated forms (Philippos,Xanthos) of the same names.
                          That is not the same, stick to accurate comparisons.
                          So what?I don’t see any specific reason one should feel so proud about his pure IE heritage.
                          Who said anything about 'pride'? I just stated the facts, and I will repeat them: Paleo-Balkan languages (in addition to today's Balto-Slavic languages) such as Thracian appear more Indo-European than the Greek language, which has a significant non Indo-European or 'unidentifiable' component that can't be disregarded.
                          It seems highly improbable that one could no longer comprehend enough his native language in 4th BC,not only in Macedonia but anywhere else,unless he was raised up in some foreign land,or belonged to a conquered nation that was forced to speak a foreign language,which was not the case with Philotas
                          Like Alexander, Philotas was brought up with a Greek education along with most other children of the nobility in Macedonia during the days of Phillip II. Due to interaction with Greeks and non-Greeks accompanying the army and in conquered or allied cities, Philotas' skill in Macedonian may have been too poor for adequate communication, ie; he may have sounded like an incoherent rambler himself. I don't think Macedonian was completely forgotten to Philotas, just that he was more fluent in Greek.
                          That’s not a fair accusation!Page 120: .” “Mark”,cries the king,“how Philotas rejects his country's dialect,disdained only by himself.”


                          ..........Curtius Rufus makes it clear that even if Philotas spoke Macedonian,non-Macedonians who were present could again understand him,even with some difficulty!He does nowhere say they would not understand him at all if he spoke Macedonian.
                          You're clutching at straws by playing with these semantics based on various translations of the book. Do you know what the Latin original writes?
                          There is also another possibility:At Athenaeus time (end of 2nd,beginning of 3rd AD century) the term “Macedonian” ended up denoting Koine Greek,because Macedonians (Alexander’s succesors) were responsible for the spread of Koine throughout Alexander’s empire…….
                          That’s suggestive of Athenaeus relating Koine more to Macedonian than Attic. Don’t be ridiculous.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post
                            William Martin Leake was not a linguist.Strymon is indeed related to English "stream",German "strom" e.t.c. however it is a Thracian name,not Macedonian.The area was inhabited by various Thracian tribes long before it was conquered by Macedonians in late 5th BC century.
                            It is a close cognate to Macedonian struja, and a name that has been retained from ancient times.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • lavce pelagonski
                              Senior Member
                              • Nov 2009
                              • 1993

                              Agamoi Thytai you call it Strymon but its actualy Strumica
                              Стравот на Атина од овој Македонец одел до таму што го нарекле „Страшниот Чакаларов“ „гркоубиец“ и „крвожеден комитаџија“.

                              „Ако знам дека тука тече една капка грчка крв, јас сега би ја отсекол целата рака и би ја фрлил в море.“ Васил Чакаларов

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                The -on is just a suffix used in Greek texts, the root word remains the same, and is basically identical to Macedonian of today.
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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