The Balkan Wars (1912-1913) and The Carnegie Report (1914)

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  • Onur
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2010
    • 2389

    #31
    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
    So, while there were 15,000 seasoned Macedonian fighters who were diverted away from Macedonia to fight with Bulgarian forces against the Turks in Thrace, Macedonia was left to fend for itself against Greek and Serbian aggressors, with only local support - and a weak and retreating Bulgarian army that dropped everything and ran. Like Krste Misirkov had once said, Macedonia's greatest demon was Bulgaria. They knew exactly what they were doing when they agreed to partition Macedonia, but they kept the Macedonians in the dark about their true intentions.
    Turkish army only fought in eastern Thrace in Balkan wars. Skopje, all the current territories of ROM has been handed over to Serbians without firing a single bullet and Salonika has been abandoned too because all the Bulgarian army with the 15.000 Macedonians invaded eastern Thrace to fulfill the Russian dream of conquering Istanbul and all the Turkish troops retreated back to there to stop them. So, basically the Macedonians has been sent to their doom in eastern Thrace for nothing.

    But i don't agree with you about Macedonians knowledge of what was going on. I mean, how come Macedonians cant figure out what was going on while Greeks at the south keep declaring as Macedonia as a part of hellenic kingdom since 1880s, even tough they had an embassy in Salonika at that time. Young Turks and Ataturk publicly talked about western world`s desire to divide Macedonia as early as 1903-1905. Everyone in the world already knew the plans about Macedonia, for like 10 years b4 the Balkan wars.

    In my opinion, Macedonians was deceived by the Bulgarians and Greeks. First, you have been divided in terms of ideas and conceptions. Then you got divided in reality in 1913.
    Last edited by Onur; 05-25-2011, 12:18 PM.

    Comment

    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      #32
      The Bulgarians wanted to take macedonia completely.I think force wise they were outnumbered.If the bulgarians arrived 2 hours earlier than the greeks they would have had the aegean under their control.As fate would have it we were destined to be under the greeks.The greeks had an greek embassy in solun but they go on as if the aegean area was allways greek.We know that they never set foot in that area before 1913.Also they keep saying that they liberated the area when it actually occupied the area by military force.
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
      GOTSE DELCEV

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        #33
        Originally posted by Onur View Post
        Turkish army only fought in eastern Thrace in Balkan wars.
        That is because they either fled or were kicked out of everywhere else in the Balkans.
        Skopje, all the current territories of ROM has been handed over to Serbians without firing a single bullet.....
        Not a single bullet, are you sure about that?
        But i don't agree with you about Macedonians knowledge of what was going on. I mean, how come Macedonians cant figure out what was going on while Greeks at the south keep declaring as Macedonia as a part of hellenic kingdom since 1880s, even tough they had an embassy in Salonika at that time.
        What can I say, naivety, ignorance, misguided trust in foreigners, etc. Macedonian 'leaders' have made a lot of stupid decisions. They still do.
        Young Turks and Ataturk publicly talked about western world`s desire to divide Macedonia as early as 1903-1905.
        Any further information?
        In my opinion, Macedonians was deceived by the Bulgarians and Greeks. First, you have been divided in terms of ideas and conceptions. Then you got divided in reality in 1913.
        I agree.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Pelister
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 2742

          #34
          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          Pelister, bias relating to terminology aside, the letters in the report are important documents which highlight the turmoil our people went through. I understand the point you're trying to make, but in the context of the actions cited in these letters, your point is not as relevant as the one about Macedonians suffering during war. I completely disagree with your assertion that this "kind of distortion absolves to some extent the actions of the invading 'Greeks'". How do you figure?
          Good question SoM.

          Greek historiography doesn't hide the crimes. It hides the identity of the victims. It does this for a number of reasons. One, to represent Macedonian territory as a land "up for grabs". There are variations on this theme. Two, to represent it as land inhabited by "Greeks and Bulgarians" only. It finds many ways to 'justify' the illegal siezure of the territory, and the extermination of the native people. This is how it tries to absolve itself from its presence there and from its crimes against our people, from a legal point of view. According to just about every top jurist in international law and the Law of Nations over the last five centuries (I've looked into it) the conquest of Macedonian territory is entirely illegal, if, one, the territory is occupied by a distinctive, indigenous element that makes up the majority with its own langauge, nationality...etc, and two, if it can be shown that no provocation is given. The Carnegie report, by calling these "Bulgarian outrages" and "Greek outrages" is effectively denying our existence, our historical presence and our voice - and falsely painting the "war" as a dispute between two parties over territory that they have a prescriptive right to (in international law). That simply isn't true, but the report makes it appear that way. The report mentions the Macedonians in places, but it contradicts itself - one part of report refers to nearly all of Macedonia simply as a Bulgarian territory, inhabited by "Bulgarians" except for Ohrid "that is Macedonian" it says. Ultimately the Macedonians end up being some obscure political footnote, because the 'war' is largely between "Bulgarians" and "Greeks"...etc. There is nothing in it about the illegality of the invasion. In this report we never here from the Macednoians, and when we do it is as 'Bulgarians' and 'Greeks' and for mine that makes it foriegn policy tool of our enemies.
          Last edited by Pelister; 06-02-2011, 04:25 AM.

          Comment

          • Onur
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2010
            • 2389

            #35
            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            That is because they either fled or were kicked out of everywhere else in the Balkans.

            Not a single bullet, are you sure about that?
            Yes they fled but also all the Turkish army in Macedonia (incl. Aegean side) has been called for retreat back to eastern Thrace. First Balkan war in 1912 has been started with Bulgarian army entering to eastern Thrace in full force and with the help of extra ~15.000 soldiers from Macedonia. Tsar of mother Russia ordered them to do so. Already the main purpose of Balkan war for great powers was the preparation for the incoming WW-1, securing their way to newly discovered oil sources and Russia was trying to open their path to mediterranean for their marine corps, either from Istanbul or from Aegean Macedonia. Ofc that was their hidden intention but to the public, they were blabbering something like "Go to Constantinople my slavic brothers and restore Byzantine empire under the command of Russian/Bulgarian orthodox church"!!!


            Yes, not a single bullet has been fired by Turkish army in Macedonia. You can read that from the Carnegie report; there was no authority in Aegean Macedonia for about 5-6 weeks `till the Greek armies entrance to there and probably about a month of same situation in Skopje after Turkish troops deserted from everywhere. So, both Greeks and Serbs found no one except civilians in Macedonia.


            Any further information?
            I`ll look in to that.
            Last edited by Onur; 06-02-2011, 06:12 AM.

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #36
              Originally posted by Onur
              Yes, not a single bullet has been fired by Turkish army in Macedonia. You can read that from the Carnegie report; there was no authority in Aegean Macedonia for about 5-6 weeks `till the Greek armies entrance to there and probably about a month of same situation in Skopje after Turkish troops deserted from everywhere. So, both Greeks and Serbs found no one except civilians in Macedonia.
              Which part of the Carnegie Report, can you post it here?
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • rosetta
                Banned
                • May 2011
                • 68

                #37
                Originally posted by Onur View Post
                Turkish army only fought in eastern Thrace in Balkan wars. Skopje, all the current territories of ROM has been handed over to Serbians without firing a single bullet and Salonika has been abandoned too...
                Originally posted by Onur View Post
                Yes they fled but also all the Turkish army in Macedonia (incl. Aegean side) has been called for retreat back to eastern Thrace.

                Yes, not a single bullet has been fired by Turkish army in Macedonia. You can read that from the Carnegie report; there was no authority in Aegean Macedonia for about 5-6 weeks `till the Greek armies entrance to there and probably about a month of same situation in Skopje after Turkish troops deserted from everywhere. So, both Greeks and Serbs found no one except civilians in Macedonia.
                Uhh.. then what was that?







                Last edited by rosetta; 06-02-2011, 02:56 PM.

                Comment

                • Onur
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2010
                  • 2389

                  #38
                  Yes, technically, these might be considered as battles but read the links;
                  The Battle of Sarantaporo, variously also transliterated as 'Sarantaporon or Sarandaporon (Greek: Μάχη του Σαρανταπόρου) took place on October 9-10 (O.S.), 1912

                  Battle of Pente Pigadia
                  Date October 21–October 23, 1912 (O.S.)
                  Location Beshpinar, Yanya Province, Ottoman Empire
                  (now Pente Pigadia, Epirus, Greece)
                  Result Greek victory

                  The Battle of Sorovich (Greek: Μάχη του Σόροβιτς) took place between 22–24 October 1912 (O.S.),

                  The Battle of Kumanovo or Battle of Kumanova (Macedonian and Serbian Cyrillic: Кумановска битка) on 23 – 24 October 1912

                  The Battle of Monastir[5] took place near the town of Bitola, Macedonia[6] (then known as Monastir) during the First Balkan War, from 16 to 19 November 1912.
                  These battles took 2 or 3 day at most cuz like i said, Turkish army retreated back from everywhere and all these 48h battles happened in the outskirts of the towns, so Greek and Serbian army entered to the big towns without any conflict.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    #39
                    Originally posted by rosetta
                    Love of Homeland, faith in Religion and hunger for righteous vengeance have uplifted my soul and seeded the lust for battles!
                    Is that what those animals who wrote the letters posted on the previous page were also thinking?
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Pelister
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2742

                      #40
                      SoM, its good that your focusing on the more positive aspects of the report. You know me, I have trouble with the rest of it, particularly the parts I think where its authors take the view that all of Macedonia (except Ohcrid) is pretty much inhabited by "Bulgarians".

                      Comment

                      • rosetta
                        Banned
                        • May 2011
                        • 68

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        Is that what those animals who wrote the letters posted on the previous page were also thinking?
                        Who knows? There are thousands of letters from the front, survived in Museums and collections or concentrated in books and newspaper articles. Each letter is revealing on the author and the real situation at the front.
                        For anyone understanding Greek, this is an example (5 letters from First and Second Balkan Wars in text and audio).

                        Comment

                        • indigen
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2009
                          • 1558

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Pelister View Post
                          SoM, its good that your focusing on the more positive aspects of the report. You know me, I have trouble with the rest of it, particularly the parts I think where its authors take the view that all of Macedonia (except Ohcrid) is pretty much inhabited by "Bulgarians".
                          We need to take the following info into consideration when dealing with the Carnegie Report:

                          Originally posted by indigen
                          Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
                          From: Slavko Mangovski
                          Date: 1995/11/17
                          Subject: Re: L. Georgievski's writing


                          On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Zoya Naskova wrote:
                          > Is it true that the Carnegie report is rejected by Macedonian official
                          > rhetoric, and if so what is the official reasoning ? Can anyone axplain,
                          > please?

                          This is my opinion only:

                          The Report by the Carnegie Commission has the basic flaw of failing to
                          distinguish between Bulgarians and Macedonians i.e. it's confusing
                          religious adherence with ethnicity.
                          Reason for that might have been
                          the presence of two extremely pro-Bulgarian members: the Russian Miljukov
                          and the English Brailsford who actually wrote the chapters regarding the
                          ethnicity of the population in Macedonia.
                          The whole book actually has a
                          strong pro-Bulgarian flavor especially in describing the Bulgarian
                          occupation forces as more-or-less benevolent against the bloodthirsty
                          Greeks and Serbs. This is probably the reason that the book is celebrated
                          in Sofia.


                          Otherwise the report itself is a valuable document describing the horrors
                          of the Balkan Wars especially for the defensless Macedonians.

                          ----------------
                          Тема: Карнегиевата комисија
                          11-01-06 00:22 #1
                          Misirkov


                          Карнегиевата комисија

                          Karnegijevata Komisija so sediste vo Washington DC napravila izvestaj vo 1914 godina so naslov "Report of the International Commission to Inquire into the Cause and the Conduct of the Balkan Wars".

                          Izveshtajot se bavi voglavno so zlostorstvata napraveni za vreme na Vtorata Balkanska vojna vo 1913 godina iako isto taka ima za cel da gi utvrdi zlostorstavata i shtetite napraveni i vo Prvata Balkanska vojna od 1912 godina.

                          Bidejkji Bugarite nas ni go podmetnuvaat izvestajit kako nepristrasen "dokaz" za nivnite fantazii deka demek nemalo makedonska narodnost, bitno e da se objasni kako nastanal ovoj dokument i koi se clenovite na Komisijata. A bitno e za da se svati kako e dojdeno do konecniot oblik na izvestajot i kako se donesuvale zakluchocite vo ovaa Komisija.

                          Izvestajot Bugarite go propagiraat kako da e Sveta Biblija bidejkji ja promovira nivnata teza za Makedonija naselena so Bugari koi se izlozeni na teror od Srbite, Grcite i Turcite. Zatoa otkako nekoi krugovi na Zapad za vreme na vladeenjeto na Levicata (Demokratskata Partija pod Klinton) stavija akcent na animiranje na Bugarija na Balkanot, ovoj dokument e preveden i objaven vo 1995 godina zaednicki od strana na Carnegie Endownment vo Washington i Fondaijata sa Slobodna i Demokratska Bugarija ("Foundation for Free and Democratic Bulgaria").


                          Prviot precedatel na Komisijata e francuskiot senator, baronot d'Estournelle de Constant. Poznat vo krugovite kako ucen helenist i zagovornik za nezavisna Makedonija, toj viknal uste sedum drugi licnosti da se pridruzat na rabotata na Komisijata. Namerata na de Constant bila da se osigura nepristrasnost i objektivnost vo nejzinata rabota.

                          [.....]



                          For fair use only.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            #43
                            Here is something of relevance from another thread created by TM:


                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Pelister
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 2742

                              #44
                              Nevertheless, alot of the evidence in the report is very valuable for us, but its only useful to people who can 'read between the lines', otherwise its just another piece of propaganda, albeit with a disturbing international dimension to it.

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