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Old 03-24-2010, 12:53 AM   #1
Pelister
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Default Origins of IMRO ?

This is the first time I have ever read anything like this. Any comments are welcome. I am wondering whether the sources actually check out, or the possibily of forgeries here.

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In Salonica in November 1893 four teachers, a bookseller and a physician founded the most famous Macedonian organization. Its exact name is disputed. (Since when?) Initially it was called Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (MRO), but in 1896 it assumed the title of Bulgarski Makedono-Odrinski Revoliutsionni Komiteti (Bulgarian Macedo-Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Committee - BMORK) and membership was open to 'any Bulgarian' who desired to serve the 'cause'...of a politically autonomous Macedonia.[1] [...] In 1902 the adjective 'Bulgarian' was erased and the organization renamed (Secret Macedo-Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Organization - TMORO). A few years later, however, it obtained its final name - Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization - IMRO
Source: Livanios, Dimitris., The Macedonian Question: Britain and the Southern Balkans 1939-1949 (Oxford University Press, 2008), pp.17,18,19

[1] Footnote:
Quote:
See the 1896 statutes in the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Macedonia, 419.
Other possible sources include, Nadine Lange-Akhund, The Macedonian Question ...p.36; Aarbakke, Ethnic Rivalry, p.97; Banac, National Question, p.314.

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Old 03-24-2010, 08:53 PM   #2
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be careful not to equate "bulgarian" to ethnicity during ottoman times.....many used that term for religious affiliation
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:34 PM   #3
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Bulgarian forgeries for anti-Macedonian PROPAGANDA that some dubious elements in Macedonian "academic" circles have also bought into, e.g. SDS head of their "intellectual" council (or whatever the name of this grouping is) Ivan Katardzhiev. Katardzhiev was the main proponent and was/is in the main opposed by Blazhe Ristevski, who maintains that it is a bulgar forgery as the founders of the MRO (Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation) TMORO/VMORO/VMRO do not mention it in their memoirs.

Secondly, the BUGAROMANI in MPO and DPMNE, e.g. Antonio Miloshoski, Ljupcho Georgiveski and Dimitar Dimitrov, amongst many other sellouts, heavily push this line as well.

PM "mango" on Maknews and he should be able to give you more info on this topic.

In the following letter to Utrinski Vesnik Aleksandar Donski responds to criticise exactly the same claims made by Antonio Miloshoski:

(Повод: текстот на Антонио Милошоски за Христо Татарчев објавен во "Утрински весник" на 18.12.2004 година)
ВМРО никогаш порано не се викало БМОРК
Александар Донски

Антонио Милошоски (инаку висок функционер на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ) продолжува во своите историски текстови да подметнува невистини во врска со македонската историја. Така прво во својот текст "За континуитетот на името Македонија"("Утрински весник",16 и 17.10.2004) тој тврдеше дека името Македонија во минатото на овие простори се "загубило", но во почетокот од 19 век го "оживеале" европските картографи. Значи, според него, нашиот народ до 19 век не знаел во која земја живее (па ни каква етничка припадност има), но потоа, откако ги "видел" картите нацртани од Европејците, сфатил дека живее во Македонија. Се разбира дека ваквото тврдење е бесмислено, имајќи го предвид степенот на познавање на странската картографија од страна на (во голем број нешколуваните) Македонци од почетокот на 19 век, па и подоцна. Милошоски тврди дека ВМРО отпрвин се викало БМОРК (Бугарско-македонско-одрински револуционерен комитет). Но, ниту ова не е вистина и ваквото тврдење претставува чиста артикулација на големобугарската антимакедонска пропаганда. Дека ВМРО порано, наводно, се викало БМОРК е измислица од поново време (конкретно од пропагандната машинерија на режимот на Тодор Живков). Но, од каде знаеме дека ВМРО никогаш порано не се викало БМОРК? Одговорот на ова прашање е многу едноставен. Денес се зачувани мемоари на основачите на оваа организација, па доколку ВМРО отпрвин се викало БМОРК, зошто тогаш ниту еден од нив не го спомнува ваквото име во своите спомени? Како е можно некој да пишува спомени за организација што самиот ја создал без да го спомне ваквото нејзино име? Поради ова, кај Милошоски или е во прашање непознавање на она за што пишува или свесен обид да се поттури оваа големобугарска провокација.

http://star.utrinski.com.mk/?pBroj=1659&stID=27508&pR=9


The following is a Google translation (plus my edits):

Reply: the article by Antonio Miloshoski on Hristo Tatarchev published in Utrinski Vesnik on 18.12.2004)

IMRO never named BMORK
Alexander Donski

Antonio Milososki (otherwise a senior member of VMRO-DPMNE) continues to spread lies about Macedonian history in his articles. Thus at first in his article “The continuity of the name Macedonia (Utrinski newspaper, 16 and 17.10.2004), he claimed that the name Macedonia in the past in these areas was “lost” but at the beginning of the 19th century was “revived” by European cartographers. So, according to him, our nation until the 19th century did not know in which country it lives (even what ethnicity it is), but then after they “saw” maps drawn by Europeans realized that they are living in Macedonia. Of course this statement is meaningless, given the knowledge level of foreign cartography by (mostly uneducated/illiterate) Macedonians from the early 19th century and even later. Milososki claims that VMRO was initially named BMORK (Bulgarian Macedonian Adrianople [Odrinski] Revolutionary Committee [Komitet]). But this is also not true and this statement constitutes a clear articulation of Greater-Bulgarian anti-Macedonian propaganda. That VMRO previously, allegedly, was named BMORK is an invention of recent times (concretely by the propaganda machine of the Todor Zhivkov regime). But how do we know that the IMRO was never named BMORK? The answer to this question is very simple. Today we have preserved memoirs of the founders of this organization, so if VMRO was initially named BMORK, why is it not mentioned by them? How is it possible for someone to write memoirs of the organization that they created without mentioning the name under which it was founded? Therefore, with Milososki it is either a question of ignorance of what he writes about or a conscious attempt at an underhand Greater-Bulgarian provocation.

So pochit.
Indigen

PS: The fact that you are not aware that this is considered a forgery by Macedonian patriots and that nobody else responded to inform you otherwise is an INDICATION of the (low) level of Macedonian Consciousness (Political awareness) prevalent amongst people who frequent these forums, IME. This is a disappointment.

Last edited by indigen; 03-27-2010 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 03-24-2010, 11:22 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indigen View Post
Bulgarian forgeries for anti-Macedonian PROPAGANDA that some dubious elements in Macedonian "academic" circles have also bought into, e.g. SDS head of their "intellectual" council (or whatever the name of this grouping is) Ivan Katardzhiev. Katardzhiev was the main proponent and was/is in the main opposed by Blazhe Ristevski, who maintains that it is a bulgar forgery as the founders of the MRO (Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation) TMORO/VMORO/VMRO do not mention it in their memoirs.

Secondly, the BUGAROMANI in MPO and DPMNE, e.g. Antonio Miloshoski, Ljupcho Georgiveski and Dimitar Dimitrov, amongst many other sellouts, heavily push this line as well.

PM "mango" on Maknews and he should be able to give you more info on this topic.

In the following letter to Utrinski Vesnik Aleksandar Donski responds to criticise exactly the same claims made by Antonio Miloshoski:

(Повод: текстот на Антонио Милошоски за Христо Татарчев објавен во "Утрински весник" на 18.12.2004 година)
ВМРО никогаш порано не се викало БМОРК
Александар Донски

Антонио Милошоски (инаку висок функционер на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ) продолжува во своите историски текстови да подметнува невистини во врска со македонската историја. Така прво во својот текст "За континуитетот на името Македонија"("Утрински весник",16 и 17.10.2004) тој тврдеше дека името Македонија во минатото на овие простори се "загубило", но во почетокот од 19 век го "оживеале" европските картографи. Значи, според него, нашиот народ до 19 век не знаел во која земја живее (па ни каква етничка припадност има), но потоа, откако ги "видел" картите нацртани од Европејците, сфатил дека живее во Македонија. Се разбира дека ваквото тврдење е бесмислено, имајќи го предвид степенот на познавање на странската картографија од страна на (во голем број нешколуваните) Македонци од почетокот на 19 век, па и подоцна. Милошоски тврди дека ВМРО отпрвин се викало БМОРК (Бугарско-македонско-одрински револуционерен комитет). Но, ниту ова не е вистина и ваквото тврдење претставува чиста артикулација на големобугарската антимакедонска пропаганда. Дека ВМРО порано, наводно, се викало БМОРК е измислица од поново време (конкретно од пропагандната машинерија на режимот на Тодор Живков). Но, од каде знаеме дека ВМРО никогаш порано не се викало БМОРК? Одговорот на ова прашање е многу едноставен. Денес се зачувани мемоари на основачите на оваа организација, па доколку ВМРО отпрвин се викало БМОРК, зошто тогаш ниту еден од нив не го спомнува ваквото име во своите спомени? Како е можно некој да пишува спомени за организација што самиот ја создал без да го спомне ваквото нејзино име? Поради ова, кај Милошоски или е во прашање непознавање на она за што пишува или свесен обид да се поттури оваа големобугарска провокација.

http://star.utrinski.com.mk/?pBroj=1659&stID=27508&pR=9


The Following is unedited messy Google translation:

The reason: text Antonio Milososki Tatarchev Christo published in Utrinski Journal of 18.12.2004)
IMRO never named BMORK
Alexander Donskoy


Antonio Milososki (otherwise senior VMRO-DPMNE) continues in its historical texts podmetnuva lies on Macedonian history. Thus in his first play "The continuity of the name Macedonia (Utrinski newspaper, 16 and 17.10.2004), he claimed that the name Macedonia in the past in these areas are" lost "but the beginning of the 19th century" ozhiveale "European cartographers. So, according to him, our nation until the 19th century did not know in which country lives (even what ethnicity is), but then after they "saw" maps drawn by Europeans realized that living in Macedonia. Of course this statement is meaningless, given the level of foreign cartography by (in many neshkoluvanite) Macedonians from the early 19th century and even later. Milososki claims that VMRO initially named BMORK (Bulgarian-Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Committee). But this is not true and this statement is clear articulation of golemobugarskata anti-Macedonian propaganda. VMRO ago that allegedly named BMORK's invention of recent times (particularly the propaganda machine of the regime of Todor Zhivkov). But where we know that the IMRO never named BMORK? The answer to this question is very simple. Today is preserved memorials of the founders of this organization, so if VMRO initially named BMORK, why none of them did not mention this name in their memories? How is it possible for someone to write memories of the organization that created without such mention her name? Therefore, the Milososki is in question, or ignorance of what they write or conscious effort to potturi golemobugarska this provocation.

NB: I will clean up the translation when I get some more time.

So pochit.
Indigen

PS: The fact that you are not aware that this is considered a forgery by Macedonian patriots and that nobody else responded to inform you otherwise is an INDICATION of the (low) level of Macedonian Consciousness (Political awareness) prevalent amongst people who frequent these forums, IME. This is a disappointment.
Thankyou Indigen.

The fact that the term 'Bulgar' is not mentioned in the memoirs of its founders does point to a possible forgery.

I knew that the name of MRO had changed to eventually become IMRO, but I was not aware of the "BMORK" element in this debate. So I was surprised when I read about it for the first time. I can understand why a Greek writer would include this name in his book because it supports the Greek thesis (and Bulgarian thesis) in this issue.

I don't think many Macedonians have been aware of issues surrounding this detail. I certainly wasn't, but it is good to get it out in the open for discussion regardless. I would be more concerned that members of the government might be adopting an anti-Macedonian and pro-Bulgarian line on this issue. Thanks again for clarifying it.

Last edited by Pelister; 03-24-2010 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 03-25-2010, 12:07 AM   #5
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First they have to work on their own "creation myth" and decide whoīs descents they are, and later mind their own matters, and get the f... out of our lifes / history / affairs :P

They claim that we are Bulgarians.

First we have to ask which of our ancestors / Macedonian Revolutioners and Cultural Activist identified themself with some of the Bulgarian Khans?

I can recall "Majka Makedonia", a ne Bīlgaria, concidering themself as succesors of Aleskandar, Filip, Samoil, Krale Marko, not Omurtag.

The "greeks" made genocid and exodus over the Macedonian population in the Aegean Macedonia, and the official Bulgarian policy and "science" is completely subdued to the Athenīs "versions of the history", not even mentioning the crymes made from themself, the "greek" or any other side in the period after 1890, specialy 1904 - 1908, balkan wars, the first and the second WW, and the "greek civil war".

What an idiots... i mean, our ancestors fought against them to get their own, Macedonian freedom, what more you need?

About such "documents":

"Bulgarian" was sometime used during that times as synonim for "not Romeika speakers" or "slavic-speaking", meaning those who spoke Macedonian, "Bulgarian", the Thracian dialects, Serbian, and also for those who were under the Bulgarian Church.

(ob)Using the rising "greek" activities in Aegean Macedonia, Chameria, Trakia and Epir, the Bulgarians often infiltrated the Macedonian organisations with false promises, and stories for co-initiating protection from the "greek", albanian and other bands, and also resistance and uprisings against the Turks.

(ob)Using the education system and the Church, they "bulgarized" part of the Macedonians, and we are all aware that in Bulgaria are living many who have their roots in Aegean and other parts of Macedonia, beside those from Pirin Area, so it is realy tragic and shamefull that they are helping the "greeks", instead to stand beside us as our brothers.

So it is not a miracle they try to present the creation of VMRO / IMRO as "bulgarian"

We can simply ask them "what is bulgarian, tell us first pls"


greetings

Last edited by Serdarot; 03-25-2010 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 03-25-2010, 12:16 AM   #6
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thats exactly right serdarot both the bugari and grtsi better learn who they are before they can discuss anyone elses identity..

wtf is bugarin and how relevant is it in the modern world
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Old 03-25-2010, 12:17 AM   #7
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Serdarot,

I agree with you completely. The use of the term 'Bulgar' discussed in another part of the forum meant different things down the ages. The problem for us has been that modern day Bulgarian nationalists go crazy every time the term 'Bulgar' appears anywhere in the region and seize it with both hands as a sign of nationalism. We have to fight this. Everytime the term 'Bulgar' appears, we have to assume it is going to be interpreted in a nationalist context, which it always us regardless of just how out of context it is taken. And your right about something else. The way the Greek thesis complements the Bulgarian thesis - that means that the Greek misrperesent us as Bulgarians, because then it reduces Macedonia down to a region inhabited mostly by two competing nationals, Bulgarians and Greeks - it completely sidelines or ignores our distinctive culture and langauge. The Bulgarian State doesn't mind, because it keeps their greedy aspirations and propoganda alive too.
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:36 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelister View Post
Serdarot,

I agree with you completely. The use of the term 'Bulgar' discussed in another part of the forum meant different things down the ages. The problem for us has been that modern day Bulgarian nationalists go crazy every time the term 'Bulgar' appears anywhere in the region and seize it with both hands as a sign of nationalism. We have to fight this. Everytime the term 'Bulgar' appears, we have to assume it is going to be interpreted in a nationalist context, which it always us regardless of just how out of context it is taken. And your right about something else. The way the Greek thesis complements the Bulgarian thesis - that means that the Greek misrperesent us as Bulgarians, because then it reduces Macedonia down to a region inhabited mostly by two competing nationals, Bulgarians and Greeks - it completely sidelines or ignores our distinctive culture and langauge. The Bulgarian State doesn't mind, because it keeps their greedy aspirations and propoganda alive too.
Spot on, mate! You nailed it and I agree 100% with your summation.

Cheers
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:57 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Pelister View Post
Thankyou Indigen.

The fact that the term 'Bulgar' is not mentioned in the memoirs of its founders does point to a possible forgery.
Hi Pelister,
Even the authenticity of the "memoirs" should be questioned! Who published them, in what circumstances and for what purpose/s are the questions that need to be asked.

Quote:
I knew that the name of MRO had changed to eventually become IMRO, but I was not aware of the "BMORK" element in this debate. So I was surprised when I read about it for the first time. I can understand why a Greek writer would include this name in his book because it supports the Greek thesis (and Bulgarian thesis) in this issue.
It seems the YUGOS in MK wanted to weaken Macedonian spirit and Katardzhiev has it on page 148 of "A History of the Macedonian People" (English version), which, to my knowledge, was at least used by Macedonian students in Higher (HSC level) Education Schools/Collages (Sredni Shkoli) and above.


Quote:
I don't think many Macedonians have been aware of issues surrounding this detail. I certainly wasn't, but it is good to get it out in the open for discussion regardless. I would be more concerned that members of the government might be adopting an anti-Macedonian and pro-Bulgarian line on this issue. Thanks again for clarifying it.
If you had obtained a copy of this book, you would have not been in the dark. :-)

I am not sure but maybe mango's www.makedonika.org might have some more info on this. I have not checked it thoroughly for about ten years now but look for any online material by Blazhe Ristovski (in English).

Last edited by indigen; 03-25-2010 at 02:14 AM.
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:59 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indigen View Post
It seems the YUGOS in MK wanted to weaken Macedonian spirit and Katardzhiev has it on page 148 of "A History of the Macedonian People" (English version), which, to my knowledge, was at least used by Macedonian students in Higher (HSC level) Education Schools/Collages (Sredni Shkoli) and above.

If you had obtained a copy of this book, you would have not been in the dark. :-)

I am not sure but maybe mango's www.makedonika.org might have some more info on this. I have not checked it thoroughly for about ten years now but look for any online material by Blazhe Ristovski (in English).
Is this the book you are referring to Indigen?
I certainly am not in the dark.....



I have it in my library, just tell me what pages you would like to have scanned if you need them.
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