A response from Vodenka

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    A response from Vodenka

    On Maknews, Coolski of this forum asked the following:
    what do you think a political party (representing ethnic Macedonians) in Greece should do to engage and entice the vote of ethnic Macedonians?
    Vodenka replied:
    First of all Vinozito should stop talking about "minority". No Macedonian likes this term because it makes him feel that is something "strange" to the country. Do not forget that most of our people are bombarded with Greek propaganda and ignore basic democratic and human rights terminology.
    Second thing that it should do is give more attention to what people is ready to accept and not all the "package" of "minority" rights that most of the people think it is too extreme. Do not forget that most of the Macedonians in Greece feel they belong to a different ethnic group but they do not accept to belong to the same nation of the Macedonians in Republic of Macedonia or the Macedonians in Pirin (due to historical ignorance and almost 100 years of isolation from the other Macedonians).
    EU has lots of laws and directives for the "autochthonous" people which Macedonians should be informed of. I talked once to a lady ethnic Croatian and Austrian citizen: she told me that in her Croatian community in Austria they speak a dialect of the official Croatian language and this is the language they are teaching to their children. They even printed a vocabulary of their dialect.
    All the propaganda of Vinozito is based on the idea that Macedonians are a minority of a "foreign" nation (something like the Albanians in Macedonia) but our people do not like this as they do not like to loose their local identity in favor of the identity of the Macedonians of the Republic of Macedonia.
    We should stress on the similarities among all the Macedonian groups and work on that and not try to make "homogeneity" with one imposed official identity for all the Macedonians.
    I personally think that if we had the human and community rights that you Macedonians in the Diaspora have, our people would be very happy! This does not include of course the obligatory teaching of the official language of the Republic of Macedonia, as Vinozito insists! It could include though some EU laws which allow to autochthonous populations (like the Macedonians in Greece) to get their language to be taught in the public schools were it is requested by the inhabitants.
    A Macedonian Party or organization should be near the people to help them to keep and develop their local ethnic identity and by doing so, help the Greek people to come to know us and show that Greeks have nothing to fear from Macedonians or any other ethnic, linguistic, religious community that exist in Greece and are part of the Greek State and not something outside it.
    What Vinozito is doing now is to attack all the Greek institutions and governments, always in a very belligerent way that makes more difficult for our people to be accepted by the majority of Greek society.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    #2
    I think her response is thoughtful and acutely aware of the circumstances prevalent in Greece today.

    Unfortunately, I am the first one to accept this does not help the Macedonians across the border. But I can see how a bridge can be formed between the two groups of Macedonians who have been separated for almost 100 years. It would be linguistic and would represent a revival of our language. It is time to revisit our language and include the Macedonia dialects that were ignored when our literary language was codified some 50 years ago. It will be a golden opportunity to purge the English cancer in our language and inject some pride in our (treasured by some) language.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Bratot
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 2855

      #3
      All the propaganda of Vinozito is based on the idea that Macedonians are a minority of a "foreign" nation (something like the Albanians in Macedonia) but our people do not like this as they do not like to loose their local identity in favor of the identity of the Macedonians of the Republic of Macedonia.
      We should stress on the similarities among all the Macedonian groups and work on that and not try to make "homogeneity" with one imposed official identity for all the Macedonians.
      Vodenka is related to Bakoyanis?
      The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

      Comment

      • Risto the Great
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 15658

        #4
        Bratot, like it or not, the majority of Macedonians in Greece feel that they carry the torch for the real Macedonians. Just like the Macedonians in the Republic feel about themselves. Make that mind-leap and then we might solve this problem. Seriously, why would a Macedonian from Greece think that joining up with the Macedonians from the Republic is a good idea? They have enough Albanians in Greece, much less look North to the constitutionally compromised nation that is the Republic of Macedonia.
        Risto the Great
        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

        Comment

        • Bratot
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 2855

          #5
          Solve what problem?


          I'm not talking about unification here or some "Greater" Macedonia in ethnic boundaries.

          But hell with me then,because I can't cope with this kind of bullshit, what she said is not only outrageous but damn selfish.

          You are saying that Macedonians in Greece are carrying the torch for the rest of us?

          If this was supposed to be your irony, I can agree.

          There is no point of working for any 'macedonian' cause if we are being divided like she proposed, because she doesn't want to share the same 'imposed' identity... omg..

          what will be next, our Macedonians from Belomorieto will deny our identity too?


          What would she offer to the deported aegean Macedonians in the diaspora and in the Republic?

          She imply that I shouldnt give a fuck about her as she doesn't bother with me,right.

          THIS IS WRONG!
          The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #6
            Originally posted by Risto the Great
            It is time to revisit our language and include the Macedonia dialects that were ignored when our literary language was codified some 50 years ago.
            I would certainly agree with that.
            ........why would a Macedonian from Greece think that joining up with the Macedonians from the Republic is a good idea?
            Interesting question. Is not the fact that they are the same people enough, or does the Macedonian Republic need to show some form of economic (or other) appeal to sway their brethren from the south?

            I am trying to parallel this situation with that of the Irish, does the Irish Republic need to have a particular appeal for their brethren in Northern Ireland? Or is the fact that they are Irish enough to forge a bond?
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15658

              #7
              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
              Interesting question. Is not the fact that they are the same people enough, or does the Macedonian Republic need to show some form of economic (or other) appeal to sway their brethren from the south?
              I don't need much convincing. But clearly they do. And unless a change in mindset occurs, all of this will be useless banter in a few years. Remember, these people are fed a daily dose of "Greeks created the world" every morning. They have been indoctrinated into a belief that being Macedonian is a cultural downgrade as compared to being Greek. Just as many Macedonians in the Republic consider my people Greek, many of my people in Greece think of Macedonians in the Republic as Yugoslavs.

              So wouldn't a new approach be viable if it included a mechanism for instilling pride in these people. Once they have it, it will not take long to show them where it comes from.

              I don't think Ireland is a good example and I cannot think of any country that can begin to compare with the misery of the Macedonians.
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13670

                #8
                What do you suggest as necessary changes RtG, and how can they be initiated and implemented in the near future?

                Is there a dedicated organisation in the Macedonian Republic that works on establishing and solidifying ties between the people? If not, should there be?
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Daskalot
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 4345

                  #9
                  what term to use if not "minority", we are not a majority.... could the term cultural minority be a middle ground, but then again such a term plays into the hands of the Greeks......

                  but reading her statement once more, makes me feel like the Macedonians in Greece do not consider themselves to be the same as the Macedonians of the Republic, this is strange.

                  And something that is not good.
                  Macedonian Truth Organisation

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Bratot View Post
                    Solve what problem?


                    I'm not talking about unification here or some "Greater" Macedonia in ethnic boundaries.

                    But hell with me then,because I can't cope with this kind of bullshit, what she said is not only outrageous but damn selfish.

                    You are saying that Macedonians in Greece are carrying the torch for the rest of us?

                    If this was supposed to be your irony, I can agree.

                    There is no point of working for any 'macedonian' cause if we are being divided like she proposed, because she doesn't want to share the same 'imposed' identity... omg..

                    what will be next, our Macedonians from Belomorieto will deny our identity too?


                    What would she offer to the deported aegean Macedonians in the diaspora and in the Republic?

                    She imply that I shouldnt give a fuck about her as she doesn't bother with me,right.

                    THIS IS WRONG!
                    Bratot, there is obviously a problem. It has not been solved for almost 100 years. If you don't know what it is, then you have not spoken with many Egejci.

                    I said Macedonians in Greece AND the Republic feel they are the sole bearers of "torches". I did not say just Greece. I was highlighting how far things have gone in this regard. I am not sure you understood what I was getting at.

                    Selling the idea that Macedonians from Greece are a minority of the nation that is now called the Republic of Macedonia does not work for the Macedonians in Greece. This might upset you. As it did for me when I first visited there. But you sound like you would be quick to banish these people from claiming a Macedonian identity.

                    You should ask Slovak what it means to be a Slovak in Serbia and how he identifies with Slovakia as a country. It sounds like you are struggling with this but this is the problem that needs to be overcome if we are to move forward.

                    And now for the really controversial issue that I will leave you with. Gruevski is presently giving hints that he IS working for the Macedonian cause. How many can we say have done more since it ceded from Yugoslavia?
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • Bratot
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2855

                      #11
                      I meant ..solve whos problem?

                      Isnt obvious that we both have the same problem?

                      And Slovak in Serbia or MACEDONIAN in Greece is completelly different matter.

                      I'm disapointed pretty much, but I wont give up of my beliefs. If Vodenka interest is opposite from our collective Macedonian goal she isn't of any help to me.

                      Podobro da ne odmaga.
                      Last edited by Bratot; 03-22-2009, 06:57 AM.
                      The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        What do you suggest as necessary changes RtG, and how can they be initiated and implemented in the near future?

                        Is there a dedicated organisation in the Macedonian Republic that works on establishing and solidifying ties between the people? If not, should there be?
                        we all know the language is different by no more than 5% between the Egejci and the Vardarci. If we remove the English cancer from the language, there is little they cannot understand. Nevertheless, some pride in their dialects would be amazing if it was given some respect and approached at from an Abecedar type perspective.

                        Language is the key. The rest follows.

                        I have no knowledge of any organisations that promote ties other than Vinozito. And they are failing where it counts ... with the people.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15658

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Bratot View Post
                          I meant ..solve whos problem?

                          Isnt obvious that we both have the same problem?

                          And Slovak in Serbia or MACEDONIAN in Greece is completelly different matter.

                          I'm disapointed pretty much, but I wont give up of my beliefs. If Vodenka interest is opposite from our collective Macedonian goal she isn't of any help to me.

                          Podobro da ne odmaga.
                          What are the collective Macedonian goals?
                          How would the right to self-identify as Macedonians for the Macedonians of Greece deviate from these goals?
                          Do Macedonians of Greece have to concern themselves with the economics of the Republic in order to feel Macedonian?
                          What is Macedonian?
                          What was Macedonian?

                          I don't expect answers, I am merely pointing out that this issue is far more complex than you might care to admit. But I will say that Macedonia will benefit from encouraging Macedonians of Greece to fall in love with their Macedonian identity again.

                          Why is a Slovak in Serbia so different? You are possibly referring to the human rights they are afforded. In which case I agree with you. But, aside from that, do you feel they have to be one and the same with modern Slovakians?

                          You appear to see Vodenka as a traitor. And I see her as someone who could achieve more for the Macedonians of Greece than anybody has ever done before. Time will tell. But hopefully we both agree that nothing has happened so far.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Risto the Great
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 15658

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
                            but reading her statement once more, makes me feel like the Macedonians in Greece do not consider themselves to be the same as the Macedonians of the Republic, this is strange.

                            And something that is not good.
                            We both know it is not good.
                            We also both know it has been almost 100 years since they lived in equal circumstances. It is time to embrace the problems and adapt to the situation, not stick our heads in the sand and hope the next generation gets it right.
                            Risto the Great
                            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                            Comment

                            • Delodephius
                              Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 736

                              #15
                              The situation between Slovaks in Serbia and Macedonians in Greece is different. First, we Slovaks in Serbia live in a poorer country than the Slovak Republic, Macedonians in Greece live in a wealthier country than the Republic of Macedonia. We here have far better human rights and we prosper in terms of language and culture while Macedonians in Greece don't even have basic rights to prosper. We are descendants of colonists who came here in 1745 while Macedonians in Greece are natives of the Aegean Macedonia. It is different.
                              अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                              उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                              This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                              But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                              Comment

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