"They call themselves Macedonians"

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  • Carlin
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 3332

    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
    How do they define the relationship of the Arnauti to the Circassians? I guess I want a good translation of the word "маждракот".
    Risto, I'm not sure they define the relationship.

    I believe the word "маждрак"/"маждракот" means a spear (I am not 100% certain though), while yatagan/јатаганот is a type of Ottoman knife or short sabre.

    Yatagan:
    Last edited by Carlin; 02-02-2020, 08:08 AM.

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    • Carlin
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 3332

      Edmund Spencer: A Journey from Ohrid to Janina, 1850

      "I was this time accompanied by a native of Macedonia, as a kiraidji; he was an excellent fellow in his way, spoke a little Italian, which, with his own patois, a mixture of Albanian, Slavonian, Greek, and Turkish, enabled us to understand each other. Among his other qualifications, as a kiraidji, he was lively and communicative, knew the country well, and the character of the inhabitants, and how to avoid danger while travelling through a land in so disorganised a state as Albania; he was also full of anecdote, whether real or imaginary, and among other things amused me with accounts of the great antiquity of his own family, for Stefa was nothing less than a descendant of the Macedonian Kings!"

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      • Risto the Great
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 15658

        Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
        Risto, I'm not sure they define the relationship.

        I believe the word "маждрак"/"маждракот" means a spear (I am not 100% certain though), while yatagan/јатаганот is a type of Ottoman knife or short sabre.

        Yatagan:
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yatagan
        Thanks for that. So it appears no relationship, just separate feral bastards.
        Risto the Great
        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

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        • Liberator of Makedonija
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2014
          • 1595

          Macedonians mentioned in a document from 1906 detailing a Second International meeting in Chicago

          I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

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          • Carlin
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 3332

            Croatian newspaper "Pučki Prijatelj", January 10, 1908:

            "Macedonians do not want to join Bulgaria, Greece or Serbia!"


            Last edited by Carlin; 06-07-2020, 02:26 PM.

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            • Carlin
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 3332

              - In the year 1791, in Buda (Hungary), a common church meeting took place with Greeks and Macedonians present. The Macedonians were fierce opponents of the common church community being called Greek Eastern and Greek Church Community. They demanded that the name be changed and they succeeded in it - the name was changed to Greek Eastern and Macedonian Church Community.

              - In the year 1622, Toma Mrnavich in his statements on the unity of Slavic languages in the Balkans, besides the Croatians, Serbians, Bosnians and Bulgarians, includes the Macedonians among the Slavic-speaking inhabitants of the Balkans.

              Source (page 62 of the book below - this version is in Serbian):


              There is a lot of new (at least to me) and valuable testimonies in this book. For example, Bulgarian minister K. Stoilov wrote in 1882 how the Macedonians did not possess or have Buglarian national consciousness at that time. There are additional Bulgarian sources which talk about Macedonians "lacking" the Bulgarian consciousness or Bulgarian spirit.

              In the mid 19th century there were apparently between 20,000 and 25,000 Macedonians living in Istanbul. Bulgarian writers such as P. P. Karapetrov wrote how the vast majority of "Bulgarians" living in Istanbul were actually from Macedonia and lamented the fact that these Macedonians did not know about its nationality even though they spoke "Bulgarian". These Macedonians would also never say that they were Greeks.
              Last edited by Carlin; 06-07-2020, 02:40 PM.

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              • Carlin
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 3332

                DW in Nivici: “We are Macedonians in the whole village.”

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                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                  Source (page 62 of the book below - this version is in Serbian):
                  http://books.memoryoftheworld.org/#/...Ta%C5%A1kovski
                  Carlin, I can't seem to be able to download the PDF. Did you have any trouble with that?
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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                  • Carlin
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3332

                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    Carlin, I can't seem to be able to download the PDF. Did you have any trouble with that?
                    SoM, I tried now and I did have an issue initially but after trying again/refreshing I was able to access the PDF.


                    From the same book, another new Bulgarian testimony, found in the footnote #22 on page 111:

                    As to how the Bulgarian presence was received in Macedonia we can see from the example in Veles, as described by N. Enicherev: "When P. Slaveykov arrived in Veles and invited the residents of Veles to a gathering, D. R. Karanfilovic stood up against Slaveykov with the following words: Nobody knew Slaveykov, nor did anyone ask for an advice from him; he can keep his advices for his "Shopi", but the people of Veles know better than him how to take care of their own business." (N. Enicherev, V'spromenaniya i belezhki, 117)
                    Last edited by Carlin; 06-14-2020, 03:26 PM.

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                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13670

                      Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                      SoM, I tried now and I did have an issue initially but after trying again/refreshing I was able to access the PDF.
                      Thanks Carlin, I was finally able to access it.
                      - In the year 1791, in Buda (Hungary), a common church meeting took place with Greeks and Macedonians present. The Macedonians were fierce opponents of the common church community being called Greek Eastern and Greek Church Community. They demanded that the name be changed and they succeeded in it - the name was changed to Greek Eastern and Macedonian Church Community.
                      Interesting, but the reference after the paragraph doesn't lead to a source. Unless I missed something? I can't find anything else online about this supposed event.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Carlin
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3332

                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        Thanks Carlin, I was finally able to access it.

                        Interesting, but the reference after the paragraph doesn't lead to a source. Unless I missed something? I can't find anything else online about this supposed event.
                        The reference after the paragraph, which is #38, can be found on page 77 unless I'm mistaken.

                        #38 on page 77 states: Hr. Gandev, cit. delo, 87.

                        The full reference/book can be found in the "Literature" portion at the end of the book on page 208: Gandev Hr., Faktori na b'lgarskoto v'zrazhdane, Sofia 1943.


                        I was able to find this online on a Bulgarian website.

                        Христо Гандев, „Фактори на Българското възраждане“, Печатница „Култура“, 1943:


                        And here is the link to the same book but in pdf format:


                        Going directly to page 87, which Tashkovski referenced we see the following:


                        (It seems that Tashkovski has made an slight omission on page 62, as the full name of this church community was "Greek-eastern Greek and Macedonian Church Community.")
                        Last edited by Carlin; 06-14-2020, 11:02 PM. Reason: Update

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                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                          The reference after the paragraph, which is #38, can be found on page 77 unless I'm mistaken.
                          Thanks Carlin. Interesting how, despite the reference to Bulgarians, the people pushed for the community to be called Macedonian instead. It appears to suggest that the majority of the non-Greek merchants were from Macedonia and that a conscious distinction between Macedonia and Bulgaria existed among them. Otherwise, why bother calling it Macedonian when they could be 'all-inclusive' and call it Bulgarian instead? I think it can be argued that this is another example of the generic nature of the Bulgarian "identity" during the Ottoman period, which was used and manipulated, shortly afterwards, to spread Bulgarian propaganda in Macedonia.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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                          • Amphipolis
                            Banned
                            • Aug 2014
                            • 1328

                            (google translated)

                            The number of Greeks and Vlachs settled in Hungary was very large and was estimated at 10,000 souls in the second half of the 18th century. The vast majority of them came from Macedonia and the Albanian territories, while fewer came from Epirus, Thessaly and Thrace. The main cities of origin of the Greek and Vlach merchants were: Moschopolis - it is noteworthy that the Greeks and Vlachs of the Miscolc Company came almost exclusively from Moschopolis - Kozani, Siatista, Serbia, Doiraneli, Moitsa, Vogatsiko Mele, , Kleisoura, Naoussa etc. Indicative elements of the numerical strength of the various Hungarian companies are given in the table below, which records the number of independent Orthodox merchants in Hungary based on the census of 1754. If to them are added the members of the merchant families and the auxiliary staff of the merchants. It is understood that the total number of members of the Company was much larger.

                            Of particular interest are the relations of the Orthodox merchants - Greeks, Vlachs and Serbs - both with each other and with the indigenous Hungarian populations. The testimonies we have reveal constant and growing conflicts and disagreements between the Greeks and the Serbs of Hungary, regarding the use and operation of the Orthodox churches and schools of the various companies. The language and the time in which the service for Greeks and Serbs would be held, as well as the type and orientation of education provided by the schools of the Companions, often brought Greeks and Serbs face to face, resulting in some Orthodox Communities - such as In 1788, the separation of Greeks and Serbs took place, while in others it did not. Similar were the disputes between Greeks and Vlachs in the various companies of Hungary, with a particularly typical example being that of the Orthodox Community of Pest, at the end of the 18th century, regarding the operation of the Orthodox Church of the Community. However, the disputes between Greeks and Vlachs did not in any way result in their separation from each other, but, on the contrary, the Vlachs were consistently an important component of the Hungarian Orthodox Communities.

                            On the other hand, the relations of the Orthodox Balkan merchants with the indigenous peoples of Hungary have not always been harmonious. The locals of the Hungarian cities were annoyed by the extensive trade activities of the Orthodox, while the Ottoman citizenship of most of them raised the suspicion that they were spying for the benefit of the Turks, along with the fear of transporting epidemics from the Balkans. As a result, city councils often took restrictive measures against Orthodox merchants and made it difficult for them to settle and stay in Hungarian territory. However, Greek and Vlach merchants managed to impose themselves and overcome the difficulties of settling in a large number of Hungarian cities, climbing many of them into the political and social hierarchy, gaining titles of nobility and considerable power (eg the Sinai family, George Taikatzis). Nikolaos Armenoulis et al.). They thus formed the country's prosperous bourgeoisie, which introduced the principles of the capitalist economy into the essentially rural Hungarian economy.

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                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13670

                              What have you translated this from and what sources are used to corrobate the information? Was there a point you were trying to make?
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • Vangelovski
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 8531

                                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                                What have you translated this from and what sources are used to corrobate the information? Was there a point you were trying to make?
                                Its a greek dialectic.
                                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

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