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Old 08-26-2009, 08:25 AM   #1
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Default Origins of Ancient Greece

This thread is a consolidation of other related topics.

Origins of the Greek language
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...1737#post21737
Do Ancient Greeks have African Origins?
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=1769
Dorian Tribe
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...artan+Spartans

A primary chronology, which will be built upon and edited as required.

4000 BC to 2500 BC - Late PIE
Quote:
The Kurgan cultures are identified as existing during this period, originating at the Pontic Steppe. Another culture branches off to the west of the assumed homeland around Ukraine, and is called Globular Amphora. The area it covered was defined by the Elbe the west and the Vistula on the east, extending southwards to the middle Dniester and eastwards to reach the Dnieper. At about 3000 BC the Centum-Satem change takes place, and by 2500 BC it is assumed that groups from the Globular Amphora area commenced outward migrations, some to the Balkans and others to Asia, that would eventually develop into the Pelasgian and Indo-Iranian cultures respectively. Interesting to note is that the Globular Amphora area roughly corresponds with the dividing line of Satem-Centum, and the area where the 'Slavic' name is first used to identify a people.
2700BC to 1450 BC - Minoan Civilisation
Quote:
The Minoan civilization arose in Crete, the language was written in Linear A. Both the language and alphabet remain un-deciphered. Africans were present in their society and employed by the Minoans as auxiliary soldiers. It is unknown whether the Minoans were related to the migrating Indo-European speakers from the Globular Amphora culture, but according to the Kurgan hypothesis, it is likely that the early Indo-Europeans migrated from the Balkans into Anatolia. At about 1750 BC, an Anatolian people of Indo-European origin called the Hittites established a kingdom in north-central Anatolia.
1600 BC to 1200 BC – Mycenaean Civilisation
Quote:
Mycenaean culture became dominant as Minoan was dying out. The Mycenaean alphabet was an adaptation from Linear A, known today as Linear B. It was written in a language that appears to be a form of archaic European.
1200 BC to 1000 BC - Dark Ages
Quote:
The end of Mycenaean civilization, language and the Linear B alphabet occured at this point, which corresponds with the period of time in which the (Dorian) Proto-Greek-speakers are likely to have entered the region. It is possible that battles took place that culminated in the Trojan War, as the story was recorded by Homer up to 500 years later, much time had passed for a tradition to develop in which Greece could be claimed as the "original" home of the Greek-speakers. During the the same or near period, constant wars had resulted in the destruction of the Hittite kingdom, which split into several smaller states that were often subordinate to other powers in the region. Africans also seem to have maintained a presence during this period. As there is no distinct Dorian cultural trait surviving in the material record for the two centuries or so after 1200 BC, the time of their arrival is disputed.
1000 BC to 800 BC - Dorians and Ionians
Quote:
It was not until the start of the Geometric period at about 950 BC that evidence appears which could be confirmed as the new 'Dorian' culture. The Ionic dialect must have split from 'Dorian' at some point shortly afterwards. The question is, where did they come from? Was their language a hybrid of Mycenaean and Dorian, was it mainly Dorian, or did it split into dialects because one or the other had more admixture from Mycenaean? If the Mycenaeans and Dorians were both Proto-Greek-speakers and related, why the adoption of the foreign Phoenician alphabet and significant contrasts in culture? Which language would have been closer to modern Greek, Dorian or Mycenaean?
800 BC - Advent of Hellenes
Quote:
The first signs of Greek-speaking city-states appear, together with a variant of the Phoenician alphabet, originally used to write Semitic languages. Even Africans appear on the Greek coins of Phocis, Delphi, Lesbos, and Athens. The Hittite states disappeared from history at approximately 700 BC.


Stripping the events down in this order has been a good exercise, I have noticed several inconsistencies where it concerns the common claims of modern Greeks about their elusive ancient Greek 'ancestors'. Mycenaean is dubiously claimed as Greek, I would like to see a list Mycenaean words further to the one's already posted on this forum, which I will post here in this thread soon.
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Old 08-26-2009, 08:46 AM   #2
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Table from Pylos:



**Note: The translated letters were provided by Slovak, who stated that the 'q' has been replaced with a 'shch' to correspond with the Satem change.
Quote:
dipa, mezoe, qetor-ove
pot, large, four-eared

dipae, mezoe, tiri-ovee
pots, large, three-eared

dipa, mevijo, qetor-ove
pot, medium, four-eared

dipa, mevijo, tirij-ove
pot, medium, three-eared

dipa, mevijo, an-ove
pot, medium, no-eared
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:05 AM   #3
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Ventris and co. may have done a good job deciphering the tablets to identify a Indo-European language, but to claim it was 'Greek' seems a bit of a stretch. Check the links below for some inscriptions of Linear B in the Mycenaean language:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafkania_pebble
Quote:
The inscription is identified by some to be in the Mycenean language, though this identification remains disputed...........Several specialists of Mycenaean epigraphy, however, have expressed serious doubts about the authenticity of the inscription, and it is quite possible that it is a modern forgery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thebes_tablets
Quote:
Chadwick identified three recognizable Hellenic divinities, Hera, Hermes and Potnia "the mistress", among the recipients of wool. He made out a case for ko-ma-we-te-ja, also attested at Pylos, as the name of a goddess..........The tablets contain a number of important terms previously unattested in Linear B, such as ra-ke-da-mi-ni-jo /Lakedaimnijos/ "a man from Lacedaemonia (Sparta)", or ma-ka /Mā Gā/ "Mother Gaia" (a goddess still revered in Thebes in the 5th century BC, as reported e.g. in Aeschylus' Seven Against Thebes). Interesting is also ku-na-ki-si /gunaiksi/ "for women", exhibiting the peculiar oblique stem of Greek γυνή "woman".......Michael Meier-Brügger (pp. 111-118) clearly demonstrates that de-qo-no as "master of banqueting" is linguistically impossible. It must be deipnon "main dinner' as in Homer; that di-wi-ja-me-ro cannot equal 'the part for the goddess Diwia' but has to be 'two-day period' (as also argued earlier by Melena and in this volume by Killen); that si-to is not an otherwise unattested god Sito (Grain) but plain siton "grain".

Alot of doubt and inconsistent theories, and it doesn't look very 'Greek' either. Seems like there is a lot convincing required, perhaps a Greek on this forum can explain the relation between the language they speak today to Mycenaean, a comparison of sentences would be good.
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Old 08-30-2009, 04:42 AM   #4
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Who are the Dorians and where did they come from?

Herodotus says the following:
(*In the original it says 'Hellenes' and not 'Greeks')
Quote:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...ut=&loc=1.56.1
LVI. When he heard these verses, Croesus was pleased with them above all, for he thought that a mule would never be king of the Medes instead of a man, and therefore that he and his posterity would never lose his empire. Then he sought very carefully to discover who the mightiest of the *Hellenes were, whom he should make his friends.
[2] He found by inquiry that the chief peoples were the Lacedaemonians among those of Doric, and the Athenians among those of Ionic stock. These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second a Hellenic people. The Pelasgian race has never yet left its home; the Hellenic has wandered often and far.
[3] For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian.
In the above text Herodotus is clearly suggesting that the Dorians are the 'original' Hellenes, who once inhabited lands in southern Thessaly, were driven into territories called Macedonian, and again migrated out and into the south until they reached the Peloponnese. He does not elaborate on how they came to be in Thessaly in the first place, just that they were there in the day of Deucalion. He goes on to say the following:
**In the original it says barbarian language)
Quote:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...357;loc=1.56.1
LVII. What language the Pelasgians spoke I cannot say definitely. But if one may judge by those that still remain of the Pelasgians who live above the Tyrrheni in the city of Creston--who were once neighbors of the people now called Dorians, and at that time inhabited the country which now is called Thessalian--
[2] and of the Pelasgians who inhabited Placia and Scylace on the Hellespont, who came to live among the Athenians, and by other towns too which were once Pelasgian and afterwards took a different name: if, as I said, one may judge by these, the Pelasgians spoke a language which was not **Greek.
[3] If, then, all the Pelasgian stock spoke so, then the Attic nation, being of Pelasgian blood, must have changed its language too at the time when it became part of the Hellenes. For the people of Creston and Placia have a language of their own in common, which is not the language of their neighbors; and it is plain that they still preserve the manner of speech which they brought with them in their migration into the places where they live.
If the Dorians brought the Hellenic language into the Peloponnese and Attica, a language that differed from the Pelasgian, that means the Mycenaeans could not be of the same linguistic origin as the Hellenes.
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Old 08-30-2009, 05:54 AM   #5
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More from Herodotus (Again Greek is changed to Hellene):
Quote:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...r=53:section=1
LIII. The Lacedaemonians are the only Hellenes who tell this story. But in what I write I follow the Hellenic report, and hold that the Hellenes correctly recount these kings of the Dorians as far back as Perseus son of Danae--they make no mention of the god --and prove these kings to be Hellenic; for by that time they had come to be classified as Greeks.
[2] I said as far back as Perseus, and I took the matter no further than that, because no one is named as the mortal father of Perseus, as Amphitryon is named father of Heracles. So I used correct reasoning when I said that the Greek record is correct as far back as Perseus; farther back than that, if the king's ancestors in each generation, from Danae daughter of Acrisius upward, be reckoned, then the leaders of the Dorians will be shown to be true-born Egyptians.
Does this mean that there was a population with Egyptian origins in the Peloponnese prior to the Dorian 'invasion'? The Argives are also reputed to have been Dorians (at least after the Dorian 'invasion'), here is something else that Herodotus talks of:
Quote:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...t=&loc=7.150.1
CL. Such is the Argives' account of this matter, but there is another story told in Hellas, namely that before Xerxes set forth on his march against Hellas, he sent a herald to Argos, who said on his coming (so the story goes),
[2] “Men of Argos, this is the message to you from King Xerxes. Perses our forefather had, as we believe, Perseus son of Danae for his father, and Andromeda daughter of Cepheus for his mother; if that is so, then we are descended from your nation. In all right and reason we should therefore neither march against the land of our forefathers, nor should you become our enemies by aiding others or do anything but abide by yourselves in peace.
In this story the Persians claim to be of the same descent as the Dorian Argives by way of Perseus.
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Old 08-30-2009, 05:50 PM   #6
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Some primary source quotes...

Quote:
"How it happened that Egyptians came to the Peloponnese, and what they did to make themselves kings in that part of Greece, has been chronicled by other writers; I will add nothing therefore, but proceed to mention some points which no one else has yet touched upon."
Herodotus, Histories, VI.55
Quote:
"The Phoenicians who came with Kadmos introduced into Greece, after their settlement in the country, a large number of accomplishments, of which the most important was writing, an art till then, I think, unknown to the Greeks."
Herodotus, Histories, V.58
Quote:
"The temple of Athena [Lindos in Rhodes] there was founded by the daughters of Danaos, who touched at the Island during the flight from the sons of Aigyptos."
Herodotus, Histories, II.182
Quote:
"In former times, any barbarians who were in misfortune presumed to be rulers over the Greek cities [for example] Danaos, an exile from Egypt, occupied Argos, Kadmos from Sidon became king of Thebes."
Isocrates, Helen X.68
Quote:
"And if thy native country was Phoenicia, what need to slight thee? Came not Kadmos hence, who gave to Greece her books and art of writing."
Zenodotos (quoted in Diogenes Laertius) VII.3
Quote:
"And it was because of reasons such as these that many generations later men supposed that Kadmos, the son of Agenor, had been the first to bring the letters from Phoenicia to Greece."
Diodoros Sikeliotes V.57.1-5
Quote:
"In my opinion the Nauplians were Egyptians at an earlier period who arrived in the Argolid with Danaos' fleet and were settled three generations later by Amymones son Nauplios in Nauplia."
Pausanias, IV.35.2
Quote:
"When Kadmos marched in [to the Thebaid] with a Phoenician army and they [the Hyantes and the Aones] lost a battle, Hyantes ran away the very next night, but the Aones made a ritual supplication so that Kadmos let them stay and intermarry with his Phoenicians."
Pausanias, IX.5.1
Furthermore...

In regards to 'Black Athena', it's author Martin Bernal believes that ancient Greece evolved as a result of Egyptian (Danaos), Phoenician (Kadmos), and Anatolian (Pelops) invasion and colonisation over the indigenous Pelasgian population. This theory was also widely believed by the ancient Greeks themselves as evidenced by the above qoutes. Bernal also states that unfortunately, the German, English and French scolars of the 18th century fabricated the racist 'European' 'Aryan' origin for ancient Greek civilisation that is still currently taught today, thus denying ancient Greece's true Afro-Asiatic roots.
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Old 08-30-2009, 06:23 PM   #7
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God forbid modern Greeks are a reflection of many many races that have culturally (d)evolved over time.

Will the real Pelasgians please stand up.
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Old 08-30-2009, 08:35 PM   #8
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From what I have seen thus far, it appears that the Dorian 'invasion' into Mycenaean territory has some parallels to the Slavic 'invasion' into the Balkans. The Greek language as it was known from the 8th century BC onwards could be a mutation between some Minoan, some Mycenaean and later Hellenic (Dorian) tongues, to what degree for each is uncertain though. There were also Semitic influences that were present from Mycenaean times, meaning prior to the Dorian 'invasion'. All in all, it is much more complex than is revealed by the Greek racists that claim a false purity of 4,000 years of continued existence. The whole concept is a sham.

I am however still skeptical of the 'Afro Origins' of Greece, need to look into it further.
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Old 08-30-2009, 10:26 PM   #9
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Hi SOM

Quote:
I am however still skeptical of the 'Afro Origins' of Greece, need to look into it further
When talking about the 'Afro' origins of ancient Greece, people commonly confuse this with meaning sub-Saharan or black Africa when this is not the case. When discussing the 'Afro' origins of ancient Greece, this is a direct reference to the ancient Greek belief that they were the result of Egyptian colonization (the traditions of Danaos etc).

As for the Minoans and Myceneans, I don't think it is mere coinsidence that Mycenean civilisation begins only after the destruction of Minoan civilisation as a result of the volcanic eruption at Thera (Santorini).
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Old 08-30-2009, 11:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon
When talking about the 'Afro' origins of ancient Greece, people commonly confuse this with meaning sub-Saharan or black Africa when this is not the case. When discussing the 'Afro' origins of ancient Greece, this is a direct reference to the ancient Greek belief that they were the result of Egyptian colonization (the traditions of Danaos etc).
Good response Napoleon, thanks. I think it is important to be clinical about such things, so as to not appear subjective or adhering to an agenda.

Can you elaborate on the links between the Minoan/Mycenaean cross with the volcano?

Also, what is your opinion on the links between the Mycenaean language and the Hellenic language?
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