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Old 06-30-2009, 04:37 PM   #21
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Old 06-30-2009, 07:06 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelister View Post
Hey SoM,

I found this in one of my books.

I hate it when the authors us the term "Slav" as a synonym for the term "Sklavenoi". Anyway ...

A Sklavonian chieftain, Chilbuldius, became a Roman commander, and one of their best. He was a Thracian, of Sclavonian origin, defending northern Thrace from Sclavonian marauders. (Proc.Wars vii. 38. 17).

Some of the Sclavonian tribal chiefs who had contact with the East Roman empire.

Chilbuldius
Aragastus
Musocius
Daurentius

Chilbuldius was the Master of Soldiers in Thrace, under Justinian.

Ardagastus and Musocius were titled as REX of Slavs.


I would add to this list Mesamir, Kelagast, Pirogast.

The history of Russian literature, with a lexicon of Russian authors, by Friedrich Otto from 19th century.
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Old 06-30-2009, 07:35 PM   #23
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Note> the ORIGINAL SLAV language!
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Old 06-30-2009, 08:10 PM   #24
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Many of those "slavic" names do not sound slavic.

Pirogast
Ardagast
Kelagast
Dauritas
Chilbuldius

Perhaps they have already been corrupted by the Byzantine chroniclers. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what the "pre-corrupted" names might have sounded like?

I say we all name our kids after these famous people. .... sound familiar ??
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Old 06-30-2009, 11:06 PM   #25
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The problem here is the use of the term "Slav" and the term itself. In his book "The Making of the Slavs" Florin Curta tackles this problem, and argues, that the term "Sklavenoi" used by Procopius for the first time ever, is ubiquitous, and refers to various groups, various Kings not under Roman rule. He argues that it is dubious as an ethnie because we have no evidence who they were, or reference point to compare them. He has shown that the Ister (Danube) was a border marking out an administrative region, and that it was used in this context, i.e., those under Roman rule, and those not. For example, the opposite of "Sclavenes" is not an ethnie, but a name for people willing to live under Roman rule.(p.348). Whoever they were, what Curta has done is open the possibility that the "Sclavenes" (whatever their ethnic group and language may have been), were natives to the lands on both sides of the Ister (Danube). This is the key point he made, I thought.

I think this is very insightful - barbarians native to both sides of the Ister (Danube) - were likely to be kinsmen, and even part of the same tribal group.

We find out what language the Thracians used, and spoke to fill in the picture.
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Old 06-30-2009, 11:37 PM   #26
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This probably doesn't belong in this thread, but I couldn't help myself.

Curta shown that the Ister (Danube) was a border marking out an administrative region, and that it was used in this context, i.e., those under Roman rule, and those not. For example, the opposite of "Sclavenes" is not an ethnie, but a name for people willing to live under Roman rule.(p.348).

Quote:
That no Slavic ethnicity existed in the eyes of any sixth or seventh century Byzantine author, which could be compared to the modern concept of ethnicity, is shown by Pseudo-Caesarius's usage of the term 'sklavenoi'. To him, the opposite of 'Sklavenes' is (term in Greek) which was not ethnie, but a name for inhabitants of the Roman province of Dacia Ripensis.
[p.348], The Making of the Slavs.

Curta asks the question:

Quote:
Who was exactly ravaging Thrace in the 580's and who, at the same time, was ravaging Greece?
Many of the attacks in Macedonia, and Thrace, could only have been done by locals. What Curta is suggesting here is that the term "Sclavene" could, at some point, have been used to describe natives not willing to accept Roman rule. Its just a possibility, but a real one.

Quote:
That no "Slavs" called themselves by this name not only indicates that no group took on the label imposed by outsiders, but also suggests that this label was more of a pedantic construction than the result of systematic interaction across ethnic boundaries. p.350


550
Quote:
"the Sclavenes did not pose a major threat to southern Macedonia"
551
Quote:
The Sclavenes ravaging Thrace "departed on the homeward way with the other booty" p.87
579
Quote:
No independant raid of the Sclavenes is known for the entire period until 579, despite the fact that the period is covered by more than one source p.89
579
Quote:
Johen of Ephesus writes that "the accursed people of the Slavs" set out and plundered all of Greece ..."p.92
.
The phrase "people of the Slavs" suggests that "Slavs" is a space, a location.

584
Quote:
John of Ephesus claims that the Sclavenes were occupying Roman territory "as if it belonged to them" p.94
616
Quote:
Book II of Miracles of St Demetrius cross references several tribes in the book. In all cases we get the impression that they were a familiar presence. The Sclavenes were not just invaders they were "our Slavic neighbours"p.108

Last edited by Pelister; 06-30-2009 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 06-30-2009, 11:43 PM   #27
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A Macedonian Theme could be brought to light through the use of the term 'barbarian'.

A land and people, barbarian to Greeks and Romans. The barbarian invaders of the 6th century (sometimes referred to as Sklavenoi), might have had more in common with the 'barbarians of antiquity' still presumably living in Macedonia, Thrace and Illyria, than with anyone else.

Last edited by Pelister; 06-30-2009 at 11:46 PM.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:24 AM   #28
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Check the below source written during the 11th century, it is called the Life of Mary the Younger. Take note of the highlighted part at the end of the text, could this be a reason why some Armenian writers of the time proposed an Armenian heritage for Basil the Macedonian?

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/maryyounger.html
Quote:
At that time Basil [Basil I, ruled 867-886] ruled the empire, not the one born in the purple, but Basil the Macedonian. He was the one who became an emperor after being a stable hand, and the one who slew the Emperor Michael [Michael III, ruled 842-867]. It was under this Michael that the effrontery of the iconoclasts was brought to an end, and that the doctrine of the Orthodox began to sprout afresh. History hands him down as the "son of Theophilos" [Theophilos, ruled 829-842], the last of the iconoclasts, but his imbibing of much wine has also led him to be ridiculed as "the drunkard" [methuonta]. One Basil had removed Michael, he substituted himself in the Imperial office. At the time Basil was ruling, some powerful men from Great Armenia came to the great city of Constantine and approached the Emperor. He received the men gladly, giving them gifts and exalting them with honors, <for which he> was held in repute by the first ones honored.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:50 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Many of those "slavic" names do not sound slavic.

Pirogast
Ardagast
Kelagast
Dauritas
Chilbuldius

Perhaps they have already been corrupted by the Byzantine chroniclers. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what the "pre-corrupted" names might have sounded like?

I say we all name our kids after these famous people. .... sound familiar ??
Risto, there could be few variations of the names.

The names we see are already Latinized pretty much.

One example is Belisarius, whos real name was Beli-Car.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelister View Post
The problem here is the use of the term "Slav" and the term itself. In his book "The Making of the Slavs" Florin Curta tackles this problem, and argues, that the term "Sklavenoi" used by Procopius for the first time ever, is ubiquitous, and refers to various groups, various Kings not under Roman rule. He argues that it is dubious as an ethnie because we have no evidence who they were, or reference point to compare them. He has shown that the Ister (Danube) was a border marking out an administrative region, and that it was used in this context, i.e., those under Roman rule, and those not. For example, the opposite of "Sclavenes" is not an ethnie, but a name for people willing to live under Roman rule.(p.348). Whoever they were, what Curta has done is open the possibility that the "Sclavenes" (whatever their ethnic group and language may have been), were natives to the lands on both sides of the Ister (Danube). This is the key point he made, I thought.

I think this is very insightful - barbarians native to both sides of the Ister (Danube) - were likely to be kinsmen, and even part of the same tribal group.

We find out what language the Thracians used, and spoke to fill in the picture.


I will quote myself from another forum, it's on macedonian:

Quote:
Имено како што објаснуваат Русите, појава на К во терминот СЛАВ, доаѓа како последица од правилото во грчкиот јазик дека пред буквата л задолжително треба да стои к.
Бидејќи Грците не читаат л доколку претходната е С. И добиваат скл.

Кај Грците истотака со времето дошло до замена на буквата б со буквата в. Имено во старогрчкиот буквата БЕТА се читала како Б.

Додека за времето на Византија, таа веќе преминала во В.

Оттука го добиваме и терминот - СКЛАВ - SCLAV

Поради ова подоцна Римјаните како последица од употребата на Грчкиот јазик, го прифаќаат и употребуваат терминот СКЛАВ.

Меѓутоа, водејќи се по овие инструкции доаѓаме дека оригиналното име се читало всушност - СЛАБ.

И сега Русите тврдат дека тоа означувало - С ЛАБа , з Лаба, односно ОД ЛАБА.

Лаба е река во Северен Кавказ. блиску Црноморскиот басен.

Но истото име ЛАБА, во Чешкиот јазик ја означува реката ЕЛБА која извира од Чешка територија,но течението и во Германија.

Во регионот на Кавказ, во периодот на Александар и Рим подоцна, се наоѓало Кралството САРМАТИЈА.

А во Арапските земји дел од Средоземното подрачје, терминот Саклаб со кој ги нарекувале Словените е преземен од старогрчкиот назив - склаби - и затоа кај нив се задржала буквата бета во првобитното значење - Б- читајќи се САКЛАБ/САКАЛАБИ и означувал - РУСОКОС.


Меѓутоа произлегувањето на СКЛАВЕНИ од СЛАВЕНИ не е лингвистички издржано ниту потврдено.
Терминот РОБ вака се пишувал на повеќето стари западноевропски јазици:

средновековен Латински - sclavus
старо французски - esclave
средно англиски - sclave
средно ирландски - scolyc (слуга)
старо норвешки - scolkr
готски - skalks

Изоставувањето на К од скл во модерните јазици потекнува од 17 век, и со тоа се довело до забуна денес меѓу SCLAV кој преминал-> SLAVЕ и СЛАВ (Славјан, Словен) според сите Словенски јазици.

Бидејќи во ниту еден словенски јазик не се јавува буквата К во називот СЛОВЕН или СЛАВЈЕН.

Ниту Германците порано не си се нарекувале себеси Германци, ниту Шпанците се нарекувале Шпанци, тоа се Латински наметнати назви, затоа не многу поразличен е и случајот со нас каде никогаш не сме се нарекувале Склавени-РОБОВИ, кое ни е наметнато од Латинскиот.

Воопшто, кога ќе ги земеме имињата Светослав, Славица, Мирослав, Југослав и многу др. слични кои го содржат - слав - многу е апсурдно дека неговото значење е РОБ.

Зарем самите ние би се нарекувале себе си СВЕТ-РОБ, РОБ-киња, МИР-РОБ, Југо-РОБ.



Валидни можат да бидат само две дефиниции, според етимологијата на сите словенски јазици:
1. Слав- од СЛАВА
2. Слов- од СЛОВО
I hope you will understand.


Who were the Slavs, according to Curta:





It says enough.
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Old 07-01-2009, 04:26 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelister View Post
The phrase "people of the Slavs" suggests that "Slavs" is a space, a location.


Sclavonia in modern Italian means Slavonia, a region in Crotia.
http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Sclavonia

"Scuola di San Giorgio degli Schiavoni" this school was founded in 1451 by the Dalmatian population in Venice.

"Schiavoni" /ski,a,vo,ni/ translated from Italian means - SLAV

http://active.italia-obnovlenie.ru/t...eing/1944.html





But also something else is interesting:

Sclavonia may refer to:

Scalovia (Prussia)

Quote:
Scalovia (German: Schalauen) was the area originally inhabited by the now extinct Baltic tribe of Skalvians or Scalovians (German: Schalauer) which according to the Chronicon terrae Prussiae of Peter of Dusburg lived to the south of the Curonians, by the lower Memel (Nemunas) river, in the times around 1240.

The centre of Scalovia was supposed to be Ragnit (Raganita).
http://www.neman-online.info/

The origin of the name according to Prussian chronicles is derived from one of the Prussian brothers name Schalauo.

The inhabitants can be traced back to burial grounds with cremated remains and occasional graves of horses. Judging from the diggings, Scalowians are assumed to be relative to other western Balts such as Curonians and more distantly to eastern Balts such as Latvians and Lithuanians.

The territory once inhabited by Scalovian people, which had been a part of Lithuania Minor, is now divided between Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast.
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