Russia, Conservatism & Orthodoxy

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Karposh
    Member
    • Aug 2015
    • 863

    Russia, Conservatism & Orthodoxy

    Continued from here: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...t=839&page=173

    Originally posted by Gocka View Post
    ...It's a shame that Russia is the place that it is. The people are not representative of their leadership. Russia has a rich culture and very artistic and intelligent people. That's what makes it that much more baffling that they continually submit to dictatorship. The west is actually lucky that Russia isn't a totally free and democratic society, they would be a force otherwise. I always wondered if the west preferred Russia to stay the way it is, and feign its disgust with Russia's authoritarian leaders.
    I think that's a bit of a controversial assessment Gocka. My personal assessment would be that Russia, far from being a dictatorship, is actually one of the few truly independent and sovereign nations on Earth, if not the only. Russia's foreign policy is not dictated by the west or, indeed, allows any outside influence govern her internal social structure. And, the last line of defense for this strong and independent Russian policy is the so called "dictator" that the west continues to demonize, Putin. The Russian people genuinely love the guy. Not because they are hapless and dumb Russian serfs but because they see in him a protector and a champion of Russian Orthodox values and interests. This was confirmed to me by a work colleague recently. Her ethnic background is Russian Jew/Turkic and is a recent arrival to Australia. During a recent ignorant discussion on Russia and Putin with other colleagues, she went into absolute defense mode (actually, make that attack mode) where she told them all exactly what she thought of their western propaganda-influenced views about Putin. I spoke to her immediately after that and she told me that most Russians, from all walks of life, have a lot of respect for Putin.
  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    #2
    They like the fact that he is a powerful leader who has the begrudged respect from other world leaders. It makes Russians feel empowered. In contrast, Macedonia has Zaev.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Gocka
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 2306

      #3
      LOL I didn't realize it was controversial that Russia is an authoritarian state. I guess its normal for journalists and opposition candidates to continually and accidentally fall off of roofs and out of windows.

      Sovereignty and independence are completely different concepts to freedom and liberty. The Russian people are not free and they certainly lack many liberties. I'm sure many Russians like Putin, but do the one's that don't have a choice, have a say? The answer is simply no, they don't have a choice, they are not allowed to speak out. If that doesn't equate to a dictatorship then I don't know what does. Putin's only legitimate opposition in the latest election, was thrown in jail, had acid thrown at him, and when all that failed was deemed ineligible to be a candidate through trumped up charges.

      RTG kind of alluded to it, if this is what he meant. A great deal of Russians might actually be ok with living under an authoritarian regime. That doesn't mean its not an authoritarian regime.
      Macedonians on the other hand convince themselves that they live under an authoritarian regime.

      A few million North Koreans would happily die for their dictator. Millions are so used to living that way that they are fine with it. Russia is a few degrees below that. People there have been living under authoritarian leadership for generations now. Perfect example, Yugoslavia, wasn't it a dictatorship? To this day many Macedonians love and praise Tito the dictator. To this day many people in the Balkans long for those days. Does that mean it wasn't a dictatorship? Do you know why dictators are always so popular, because they get rid of everyone who disagrees with them and intimidate anyone else from following suit, ta da, 99% approval rating.

      Originally posted by Karposh View Post
      I think that's a bit of a controversial assessment Gocka. My personal assessment would be that Russia, far from being a dictatorship, is actually one of the few truly independent and sovereign nations on Earth, if not the only. Russia's foreign policy is not dictated by the west or, indeed, allows any outside influence govern her internal social structure. And, the last line of defense for this strong and independent Russian policy is the so called "dictator" that the west continues to demonize, Putin. The Russian people genuinely love the guy. Not because they are hapless and dumb Russian serfs but because they see in him a protector and a champion of Russian Orthodox values and interests.
      This was confirmed to me by a work colleague recently. Her ethnic background is Russian Jew/Turkic and is a recent arrival to Australia. During a recent ignorant discussion on Russia and Putin with other colleagues, she went into absolute defense mode (actually, make that attack mode) where she told them all exactly what she thought of their western propaganda-influenced views about Putin. I spoke to her immediately after that and she told me that most Russians, from all walks of life, have a lot of respect for Putin.
      Last edited by Gocka; 07-16-2018, 07:20 PM.

      Comment

      • Karposh
        Member
        • Aug 2015
        • 863

        #4
        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        LOL I didn't realize it was controversial that Russia is an authoritarian state. I guess its normal for journalists and opposition candidates to continually and accidentally fall off of roofs and out of windows.
        What's controversial is not that you think Russia is an authoritarian state, that's just your opinion (and the west's) but statements such as these:

        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        It's a shame that Russia is the place that it is. The people are not representative of their leadership. Russia has a rich culture and very artistic and intelligent people. That's what makes it that much more baffling that they continually submit to dictatorship.
        I would argue that the Russian people are very much representative of their leadership. And, far from being a submissive people, I've always regarded them as submitting to no one. You make the mistake of equating the respect they have for Putin as submission to a dictatorship. The Russians have a tremendous sense of national pride and won't let go of the "Superpower" status they have enjoyed for nearly a century that easily. Putin is the embodiment of that sense of pride and power that they feel and they love him for it.

        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        The west is actually lucky that Russia isn't a totally free and democratic society, they would be a force otherwise. I always wondered if the west preferred Russia to stay the way it is, and feign its disgust with Russia's authoritarian leaders.
        They already are a force...With or without a a Putin. Would you prefer a Russia with a west leaning puppet so that the New World Order would be complete?

        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        Sovereignty and independence are completely different concepts to freedom and liberty.
        Thanks for the clarification but, again, I was referring to your assumption that the Russians have been forced into submission by the all powerful Putin. I know you will never accept this (just like the west, generally) but Putin is in fact the embodiment of the majority cross section of Russian society. Those that often speak out against him are poofters, lesbians, transvestites, billionaire traitors and other degenerates of Russian society (e.g.'Pussy Riot). No real Russian will shed a tear for these degenerates anyway, and neither will I. And, since Putin is representative of the majority of Russian society, all I can say is Fuck them!!! If you can't hang 'em all, poison the bastards. What the west can't handle is the fact that there is a great resurgence in the Christian Orthodox faith and this too is seen with alarm bells by the west. I've watched countless YouTube videos of this resurgence and it hasn't gone unnoticed by those concerned. As a matter of fact, there has been a rise in Americans actually converting to the Russian Orthodox church of late. This is what the west can't stand about Russia. They give a lot of lip service, like you seem to do, with praises of a rich and beautiful culture, but it bums them out when that very same rich and beautiful culture has no place in their society for the degenerates I already spoke about. And, it's not like they are persecuting them either. All Putin has said is "I won't tolerate LBTQI propaganda that impressionable kids could get exposed to, however, what people do in the privacy of their own homes is their own business". Fair enough...to any reasonably minded person.

        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        A few million North Koreans would happily die for their dictator. Millions are so used to living that way that they are fine with it. Russia is a few degrees below that.
        "Russia is a few degrees below that". You probably even believe that don't you. The North Koreans are not stupid either you know. They are smart enough to know a psychopath when they see one. They follow their 'beloved' leader out of fear. The Russians and North Koreans are not a few degrees apart with respect to their leadership but a full 180 degrees. Completely poles apart. I won't even comment any further on this ridiculous comparison.

        Comment

        • Phoenix
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2008
          • 4671

          #5
          The negative perception of Russia to this day has been forged by US propaganda...and that includes this ridiculous belief by many in the West have of Putin being a dictator...

          If a motherfucker like Zaev represents liberal Western values or some sort of benevolent leadership, I'd take a Putin like 'dictatorship' every fucken day of the week...

          Comment

          • Karposh
            Member
            • Aug 2015
            • 863

            #6
            I know this is a football thread but just following on from recent discussions I'd like to share a few more thoughts.

            A leftist back lash is currently underway against Donald Trump after comments he made during a meeting in Helsinki with Vladimir Putin over alleged Russian interference (or, as Trump said - non-interference) in the last US election. He is now retracting those comments (naturally) but it just goes to show that the US and the west have a very well defined agenda and well-oiled propaganda machine working to discredit Russia and Putin and will not tolerate people, even the US President, himself, from veering away from that agenda.
            The backlash has come in thick and fast and they have pulled out all the stops to get their point across, even dragging out the unproven and alleged Russian-shooting of the passenger airliner MH17 a few years ago. Even the Terminator, Arnold Schwarzenegger, himself has come out and called Trump a “fan boy” of Putin who has sold out his country:

            "President Trump, I just saw your press conference with President Putin and it was embarrassing. I mean you stood there like a little wet noodle, like a little fanboy. I mean, I was asking myself, 'When are you going to ask him for an autograph or for a selfie or something like that?' "
            It's clear that many years of trying to demonize and discredit Putin as an evil dictator who has his people at his whim isn't working for them. They are realising that, not only is he very well liked and respected in his own country but also outside of Russia with millions of admirers from across the world, including millions in America as well.
            As a result of this, I wouldn't be surprised if they have come together to devise a 'Plan B' with regards to discrediting Putin and Russia. Now, they have started using the term “Strong Man Politics”, presumably to shame supporters (make that “fan boys”) of Putin. At the same time MH17 has been dragged out into the media, as if to say, “look at who you are supporting, you fools – a wanton murderer!”

            The term was most-recently used by the closet homosexual, that cock sucking lier himself, Barrack Obama in a thinly veiled attack on Trump.

            Former US president Barack Obama has taken aim at "strongman politics" in his highest-profile speech since leaving office, urging people around the world to respect human rights and other values now under threat in an impassioned address marking the 100th anniversary of anti-apartheid leader Nelson Mandela's birth.
            While not mentioning his successor, President Donald Trump, by name, Mr Obama's speech in South Africa countered many of Mr Trump's policies, rallying people to keep alive the ideas that Mandela worked for including democracy, diversity and tolerance.

            Comment

            • Gocka
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2012
              • 2306

              #7
              Originally posted by Karposh View Post
              What's controversial is not that you think Russia is an authoritarian state, that's just your opinion (and the west's)
              It's not really my opinion its a fact, with mounds of evidence to support that fact. Authoritarian, has a definition, "favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom." Doesn't the Russian government demand strict obedience to its authority, can its authority be challenged? Don't opposition figures continually die or end up in jail? Don't protesters get beaten and jailed, sometimes worse. Are journalists allowed to report critically on the government?

              The "West" has nothing to do with the simple fact that Russia is an authoritarian state. You are the west, Australia is in lockstep with everything the west has done for the last 100 years. Your leaders, that you have elected, from any of the mainstream parties support the "west".



              I would argue that the Russian people are very much representative of their leadership. And, far from being a submissive people, I've always regarded them as submitting to no one. You make the mistake of equating the respect they have for Putin as submission to a dictatorship. The Russians have a tremendous sense of national pride and won't let go of the "Superpower" status they have enjoyed for nearly a century that easily. Putin is the embodiment of that sense of pride and power that they feel and they love him for it.
              What I meant by not representative of their leadership, was in regards to the people's creativity and intellectual brilliance, in stark contrast to their thuggish and authoritarian leaders. All dictatorships have tremendous national "pride". They do not love him, they have to love him. I know many Russians who have fled Russia, they all say the same thing, that Russia is a dictatorship and any one who opposes it gets a 3 step conditioning, intimidation, beating/jailing, and if all else fails death. Its the same thing with Macedonia. All of the people who were opposed to the communist regime either fled or were disposed of, leaving behind only the ardent supporters, or meek sheep who blindly follow. It is simply naive, not western propaganda, to think that Putin anything but an authoritarian leader.


              They already are a force...With or without a a Putin. Would you prefer a Russia with a west leaning puppet so that the New World Order would be complete?
              You again talk about the West, again do you realize you are part of the west? So you are against the policy of your own country then? Would you rather have Russia in opposition to the interests of your own country? If you are asking me whether I would rather live in a Western country, or Russia, I think the answer is pretty obvious. If you think the west is so bad, move to Russia.


              Thanks for the clarification but, again, I was referring to your assumption that the Russians have been forced into submission by the all powerful Putin. I know you will never accept this (just like the west, generally) but Putin is in fact the embodiment of the majority cross section of Russian society. Those that often speak out against him are poofters, lesbians, transvestites, billionaire traitors and other degenerates of Russian society (e.g.'Pussy Riot). No real Russian will shed a tear for these degenerates anyway, and neither will I. And, since Putin is representative of the majority of Russian society, all I can say is Fuck them!!!
              So anyone who is in opposition to Putin is automatically a degenerate, transvestite, lesbian or traitor? If that isn't authoritarian thinking than I have no clue what is. Would you like to live in Russia over Australia? If you are in opposition to your current government in Australia, are you a transvestite or lesbian?

              If you can't hang 'em all, poison the bastards. What the west can't handle is the fact that there is a great resurgence in the Christian Orthodox faith and this too is seen with alarm bells by the west.
              Again you live in the west, do you think Australia is worried about the resurgence of the Christian Orthodox faith? What does that even mean? What threat does the Orthodox faith pose to anyone? Most if not all "western" countries are areligious anyway. Who gives a shit about less than 3% of the worlds population and less than 25% of Europe's population. What is the west afraid of in this regards, more specifically, what is the threat?

              I've watched countless YouTube videos of this resurgence and it hasn't gone unnoticed by those concerned. As a matter of fact, there has been a rise in Americans actually converting to the Russian Orthodox church of late.
              What is the significance of this so called phenomenon? Religion is becoming less and less prevalent in western society as a whole? By your estimates how many Americans have converted to Orthodoxy, and what is the practical significance of this?




              "Russia is a few degrees below that". You probably even believe that don't you. The North Koreans are not stupid either you know. They are smart enough to know a psychopath when they see one. They follow their 'beloved' leader out of fear. The Russians and North Koreans are not a few degrees apart with respect to their leadership but a full 180 degrees. Completely poles apart. I won't even comment any further on this ridiculous comparison.
              I don't see a big difference, except Russians are allowed to do generally what they want unless what they want is something contrary to what the government wants. The consequences for dissenters are the same in either case.


              Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
              The negative perception of Russia to this day has been forged by US propaganda...and that includes this ridiculous belief by many in the West have of Putin being a dictator...
              I don't have a negative perception of Russia. I don't dislike or even distrust the average Russian.

              I don't understand the denial of Putin being a dictator though. In what way is Putin NOT a dictator then? He doesn't allow for any criticism or opposition. Their elections are rigged. Journalists are not allowed to write critically of him. Or do you simply not believe that any of this is true?

              If a motherfucker like Zaev represents liberal Western values or some sort of benevolent leadership, I'd take a Putin like 'dictatorship' every fucken day of the week...
              Zaev is a motherfucker of epic proportions, no debate about it. Maybe you would take Putin as the leader of Macedonia, because you don't live there and your goal is more narrow. I would take Putin in Macedonia any day if it was between him and Zaev, or almost any other leader Macedonia has had to date. The real question is, would you like Putin as your leader in Australia, would I want him as the leader in the USA. Now I don't know about you, but for me that is a definite no. Would you rather live in Russian style "democracy/dictatorship" whatever you want to call it, over what you have no in Australia? I definitely wouldn't.

              Comment

              • Tomche Makedonche
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2011
                • 1123

                #8
                Probably best for this conversation to be moved to another thread
                “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                Comment

                • Big Bad Sven
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 1528

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Karposh View Post
                  I know this is a football thread but just following on from recent discussions I'd like to share a few more thoughts.

                  A leftist back lash is currently underway against Donald Trump after comments he made during a meeting in Helsinki with Vladimir Putin over alleged Russian interference (or, as Trump said - non-interference) in the last US election. He is now retracting those comments (naturally) but it just goes to show that the US and the west have a very well defined agenda and well-oiled propaganda machine working to discredit Russia and Putin and will not tolerate people, even the US President, himself, from veering away from that agenda.
                  The backlash has come in thick and fast and they have pulled out all the stops to get their point across, even dragging out the unproven and alleged Russian-shooting of the passenger airliner MH17 a few years ago. Even the Terminator, Arnold Schwarzenegger, himself has come out and called Trump a “fan boy” of Putin who has sold out his country:



                  It's clear that many years of trying to demonize and discredit Putin as an evil dictator who has his people at his whim isn't working for them. They are realising that, not only is he very well liked and respected in his own country but also outside of Russia with millions of admirers from across the world, including millions in America as well.
                  As a result of this, I wouldn't be surprised if they have come together to devise a 'Plan B' with regards to discrediting Putin and Russia. Now, they have started using the term “Strong Man Politics”, presumably to shame supporters (make that “fan boys”) of Putin. At the same time MH17 has been dragged out into the media, as if to say, “look at who you are supporting, you fools – a wanton murderer!”

                  The term was most-recently used by the closet homosexual, that cock sucking lier himself, Barrack Obama in a thinly veiled attack on Trump.

                  The real joke is in Australia our spinless formers jewish banker and current 'leader' Malcum Turncuck came out blasting russia and Putin. Yet this sellout maggot has no problems being all budy buddy with the Chinese government - the most cold hearted and morally corrupt government in the world. I wonder if Putin started throwing money at these western leaders' they would start changing their tune?

                  Comment

                  • Karposh
                    Member
                    • Aug 2015
                    • 863

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                    Probably best for this conversation to be moved to another thread
                    I agree Tomche. These discussions should be moved to another thread.

                    Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                    You again talk about the West, again do you realize you are part of the west? So you are against the policy of your own country then?
                    If it's warranted, yeah I am. I told my country this when I voted NO in the last referendum on gay marriage.

                    Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                    Again you live in the west, do you think Australia is worried about the resurgence of the Christian Orthodox faith? What does that even mean? What threat does the Orthodox faith pose to anyone? Most if not all "western" countries are areligious anyway. Who gives a shit about less than 3% of the worlds population and less than 25% of Europe's population. What is the west afraid of in this regards, more specifically, what is the threat?
                    Most if not all western countries are religious in name only. The west shut down the church's influence on people a long time ago in its effort to provide such democratic virtues as diversity and tolerance for all. The west isn't worried about the resurgence of the Christian Orthodox faith or feels threatened by it but is completely at odds with its beliefs which do not align with the type of 'democracy' that they are fighting for right around the world. The fact that it has been unable to penetrate the Russian Orthodox barrier and provide this type of 'democracy' to the 'oppressed people' of Russia is a real sore point for them, and one of the major reasons why it has tried to portray her as an oppressive dictatorship. The significance of the resurgence of the Christian Orthodox faith can't be overstated in this fight the west has with Russia. I know you left-leaning atheists don't give a shit about the insignificant Christians in the world today with their intolerance and crazy beliefs but, like it or not, we do exist and that is the whole point of this Russia V West argument. It is no longer about an ideology based on the type of political system you follow i.e. Communism (Russia) V Democracy (West) but rather something altogether different. It has now become a Cold War along different battle lines – the liberal, forward-moving, left wing ideology (personified by the west) V the conservative right wing ideology (which is personified by Russia). The once atheist Communist Russia is now a truly Christian nation in the true sense of the word. There was a time once when America was a truly Christian nation, where news readers would often sign off with a “God Bless you” to their audience at home but now the roles have been reversed. Christianity in the West is a dirty word and means shit to them, and yourself it would seem. That's fine, at least the world has Russia today giving priority to the protection of Christian Orthodox family values over the protection of degenerate minorities overstepping their liberties. Christian Orthodox Church protection over the protection of those who seek to destroy it - LBQTI advocates is what Russia is about today and millions around the world admire the country and Putin for this stand.

                    Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                    What is the significance of this so called phenomenon? Religion is becoming less and less prevalent in western society as a whole?
                    Thank you for answering your own question. Religion is indeed becoming less and less prevalent in the world today and the west wouldn't have it any other way. Thank God for Russia and the resurgence of the Russian Orthodox Church which has lit the way for the rest of the world to follow about what it truly means to be a Christian nation.

                    Comment

                    • Risto the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 15658

                      #11
                      I see many Russians in Thailand. They are about the same as the Chinese as tourists. I'm far from convinced religion is making them better than anyone else.
                      Risto the Great
                      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                      Comment

                      • Om3n
                        Junior Member
                        • Feb 2009
                        • 46

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Risto the Great
                        I'm far from convinced religion is making them better than anyone else.
                        For what it's worth, Russia has the highest divorce rate in the world and the highest homicide/incarceration rate in Europe.

                        Comment

                        • Karposh
                          Member
                          • Aug 2015
                          • 863

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Om3n View Post
                          For what it's worth, Russia has the highest divorce rate in the world and the highest homicide/incarceration rate in Europe.
                          The Google definition of a 'resurgence' is "an increase or revival after a period of little activity, popularity, or occurrence". Synonyms include renewal, revival, recovery, rally, upturn, comeback, re-invigoration, reawakening, resurrection, reappearance, re-emergence, rejuvenation, regeneration, new birth, rebirth, renaissance, new dawn, new beginning, etc.

                          The Russian Orthodox Church is indeed enjoying a resurgence. And, for what it's worth, I never said that the Russians were perfect little angels. The same human shortcomings that plague the rest of the world plague Russia too. Perhaps to an even greater degree. We all know about the rampant alcoholism, Russian mail-order brides, Russian mafia, etc...The discussion started over the so-called inherent Russian trait to be in perpetual submission to dictatorships. It then steered away to religion because it is pertinent to the argument regarding western liberalism and Russian Orthodox conservatism.

                          I won't go to the trouble of linking the videos but, for anyone interested, go to YouTube and type in "Russian Orthodox Church Resurgence" and watch the first few hits that come up. The west features prominently in these videos as having lost its way over recent years while Russia (i.e. Putin) is gaining strength as a result of this resurgence.

                          Comment

                          • Gocka
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2012
                            • 2306

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Karposh View Post


                            Thank you for answering your own question. Religion is indeed becoming less and less prevalent in the world today and the west wouldn't have it any other way. Thank God for Russia and the resurgence of the Russian Orthodox Church which has lit the way for the rest of the world to follow about what it truly means to be a Christian nation.

                            Yes, because god must be really proud of people being thrown off of buildings for voicing an opinion. He also loves alcoholism and divorce. That is why god has blessed Russians with one of the lowest average life spans in the world, because he loves Russians so much that he just wants them closer. As long as the they repress the gays though, that's all that really makes a good Christian I suppose.

                            Comment

                            • vicsinad
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2011
                              • 2337

                              #15
                              How Christian or brotherly is it of the Russian Orthodox Church not to recognize the Macedonian Orthodox Church as independent?

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X