Questions on the lack of pro-activity of the Macedonian Diaspora

[Rogi]

What we have never done is employ a shock and awe strategy. Something in the form of:

Someone is trying to kill your Baba and Dedo!*


* Use of the Macedonian language in Greece is prohibited, including terms such as Baba and Dedo.

[TrueMacedonian]

You are saying that Macedonia will continue to be called FYROM by Australia if the United Nations accepts it as Macedonia.

No that's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that countries like Russia, China, Turkey, Canada, the US, and many many others recognise Macedonia's official name. You telling me that Australia is waiting for Macedonia to shape up and for Macedonia to grow a pair is not acceptable considering how many other nations have indeed recognized Macedonia's name. If there wasn't such a powerful grk lobby I am positive that Australia would've recognized Macedonia a long time ago.

The problem is not only in Macedonia but also out of Macedonia. I would love for all of the diaspora groups to lay their membership numbers on the table for us to see how many pro-active Macedonians there are.

Perhaps this is not the case in the USA as many seem to embrace Americanism in a way that is perhaps foreign to Macedonians in Australia.

It's definitely the case. However when this census is done I would love to take those numbers and see if they come close to how many are even pro-active in the US. I think we should really be a bit more curious about these questions because then we will all know where we stand and where the cause stands.

TM, I think you have underestimated many of the Macedonian community leaders around the world.

C'mon Risto if asking 2 or 3 simple questions is going to hurt someones feelings or pride then that person who is hurt should ask his or herself why it hurt. I believe alot of these Macedonian community leaders are stand-up people and I have nothing but respect for all of them. I don't question their heart. I am just questioning the number of people involved in this cause diaspora wide.

[Prolet]

Risto, TM has a point if 4 out of the 5 countries with Veto powers in the UN managed to recognize our name why cant Australia do it?? We have 127 countries that have recognized us, by waiting for the UN is simply ridiculous we've been waiting for 20 years now and it hasnt helped, i actually applaud TM's stance on this because he is even offering help in some way to get Australia to recognize our name, we have far too many countries who've recognized us in order to simply throw it away and change our name.

Australia is taking the diplomatic approach and that does not help us one bit here and i think everyone knows that. The more countries that recognize us, the more it helps our cause. If 140 countries recognize us by our name then this question will be dead and buried only if France were to veto a resolution in the UN and keep in mind that the French havnt used a Veto for almost 50 years, they arnt about to use one now when their interests are not effected in anyway.

[TrueMacedonian]

I don't want to keep this topic in the Australia, Canada, America periphery. These are just 3 countries where the Macedonian diaspora is more vocal than the rest. What about Italy? If we actually go by this wiki link (I don't know how accurate this article is so please don't take it for what its worth)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_diaspora#cite_note-27

there are close to 80,000 Macedonians. Many of them are muslims. But many of them are Christians as well. So now why haven't we heard a peep from this supposedly very large diaspora group? They have within their midst one of the most popular Macedonians in Europe today in Goran Pandev. What can we do to get them pro-active? Has anyone tried establishing ties with these Macedonians in Italy? And how do you people feel about Muslim Macedonians if they took a pro-active stance in their community?

[Prolet]

Good Point TM

Now that you mentioned, Metodija made an interesting point during his Speech in Melbourne.

He mentioned how in the 2001 conflict the Torbesh Community in USA ( I forgot which state) offered to give $150,000 to help out but the Macedonian Church Communities there refused to accept. Can you confirm these informacii??

[TrueMacedonian]

I can't confirm this Prolet. The UMD should. If it's true then shame on those Macedonian churches for acting no better than the grk churches.

[Prolet]

TM, The Torbesh Community is massive

Many of them live in Italy and Turkey, the owner of the Turkish Company ShisheDzam is a Torbesh from Turkey. Izbegaja tamu vo 50tite godini

I think its time we cut the crap and not mix religion with nationality, we dont want another situation like Bosnia where the Muslims became a separate nation.

[Risto the Great]

If there wasn't such a powerful grk lobby I am positive that Australia would've recognized Macedonia a long time ago.

Absolutely.
And as long as Macedonia talks about negotiations, we are going to keep hearing this crap. Would it be better to lobby in Australia or Macedonia to achieve this goal? Bearing in mind that lobbying in Macedonia may have the added benefit of achieving far more.

Australia is relying on the UN agreement because Macedonia agreed to it. And Greeks will hold them to it. The Greeks have a strong lobby and you are asking how we can beat the Greek lobby. Persistence is the key as well as pinpointing the deficiencies in the Greek/Australian relationship. Honestly, it would simply be far easier for Macedonia to assert itself.

If I use your examples:

China (Rewarded Macedonia for ditching Taiwan)
Turkey (Do we need to mention the reason?)
Canada (Excellent lobbying and active communities)
USA (Screwed Macedonia without lubricant in 2001 conflict and wanted to appease them)

So Canada seems to be the best example of what is possible. But appears to have many more Macedonian politicians and less organised Greek groups. With over 100,000 less Greeks in Canada than Australia and similar numbers of Macedonians. We can see why Greeks exert more influence in Australia.

You are defining being pro-active as being a member of a community or organisation. I am not sure this is enough. The reality is that individuals control much of the actions of these organisations. I hate to keep bringing it up but I can assure you every Macedonian community on the planet would voice a protest similar to mine about the EU Parliament Resolution. But the UMD has kept quiet about it. The same organisations generally feel pretty good about the UMD. Go figure. Imagine if there was a worldwide organisation that had nothing but the Macedonian Cause on its agenda.

[Prolet]

Risto, What about Russia and UK?

[TrueMacedonian]

I hate to keep bringing it up but I can assure you every Macedonian community on the planet would voice a protest similar to mine about the EU Parliament Resolution.

But if we use the so-called Italian numbers for example how much protest would we see in the streets of Rome or Milan or whereever the largest concentration of Macedonians is? It's not enough to assume. Especially when I have not ever seen one press release from any Macedonian Italian representives. I am trying to figure out how such a large number of Macedonians don't even have one little Macedonian diaspora group or community. Do they even have community leaders? And that's one example.
How can we stretch out our hand to these Macedonians and have them start their own community centers utilizing the Macedonian Cause?
Someone once told me that there's been an active Macedonian community in Italy for close to 100 years. But why is it that they're so quiet?

[osiris]

true mak the macedonian community in australia ha done as much as anybody could. but the greek lobby is simply at this point better connected better organized and have more votes to deliver.

[TrueMacedonian]

true mak the macedonian community in australia ha done as much as anybody could. but the greek lobby is simply at this point better connected better organized and have more votes to deliver.

I understand Osiris. So how can we overcome this obstacle?

[osiris]

true mak i personally lobbied this man,
#
Andrew Peacock - Biography - The Biographicon
Andrew Sharp Peacock AC (born 13 February 1939), is a former Australian Liberal politician. ... A popular minister, Andrew Peacock, resigned from Cabinet and ...
www.biographicon.com/view/u3g5d - Cached

years ago, a few weeks after our delegation had seen prime minister keating and his greek buddies and were politely shown the door.

he told me bluntly despite greeks being very unpopular as individuals and as a culture amongst most federal politicians from all parties they were listened to because they could deliver votes.
i dont think australia counts for much internationally, we are small fry and in the shadows of the usa and britain anyway. our politicians should be ignored by our people instead we should concentrate on raising awareness amongst our own people as to how things work in this country and only then we may be able to achieve something by directing our votes en masse to friendly and supportive parties or individual politicains.

our government in the republic should never support any australian running for international office

[EgejskaMakedonia]

he told me bluntly despite greeks being very unpopular as individuals and as a culture amongst most federal politicians from all parties they were listened to because they could deliver votes.

This is why governments are never a true representation of all their people. To appease one group you must neglect another and this is unfortunately the case in Australia. It's a shame votes are a politician's main priority as opposed to the values of the community. In the situation we find ourselves in, human rights are essentially ignored to receive the 'greek' vote.

I think as time progresses we will gain momentum and steer towards recognition from Australia. The main objective is to firstly unite the divided communities and put all of our differences behind us. We must strive for a strong community which fights for the same cause. This will ultimately create a stronger Macedonian lobby in Australia and get these politicians thinking.

As osiris stated, the greek lobby is simply more organized and connected and this forms the basis for their dominance over Australian politicians in this particular issue. Since Australia are supposedly following the UN agreement it seems to the entire community that they are just following suit, however if they were to recognize Macedonia, this action would be seen as a turn on the greek community.

We can only go forward on our stance, and our numbers in Australia cannot be ignored. Lobbying in Macedonia to obtain the 140 or so countries that recognize us as the Republic of Macedonia may be the best option, however that is not to say we should halt our fight for recognition within Australia.

[indigen]

indi wrote;

TruMace: indi wrote;

Before I will ever try to give a HOW solution, I need to know you and the rest understand the WHY (why we are up shit creek without a paddle!). Please enlighten us about the why from your perspective.

Alot of things factor in as to why we are in this mess today. Megali Idea, rival church propagandas in the 19th and 20th centuries, Germany not recognizing Macedonia in the early 90's, corrupt government, and the list goes on and on.

It seems that it IS a WASTE of TIME in "discussing" anything with you because you assume that you know it all when, IME, you know very little and suffer from an oversized ego that has been pumped full of hot air at the MPO lovers forum (aka Makn--s) - ideological school for graduating confused and disoriented individuals.

Being a "defeatist" and saying it how it is are NOT one and the same thing, IME.

Yes but in view of your post you seem to accept a reality instead of work to change it. Which is why I called you a defeatist.

Yet again you continue to display lack of ability for critical (political) thought and thus will wallow in your muddled confusion forever unless you slow down and do some deep (ideological) rethinking. I see a need for you to change ideological direction or you will be stuck in a less than useless groove,

FYI: I reject ALL sellout deals and capitulations and do not support traitors, capitulationists, sellouts and their hangers on. Can you say the same and how do you equate that with "defeatist"?

Sure I can. I think that this current government is the best government Macedonia has ever got. But Macedonia can do much better. And for her sake I hope the citizens do better by electing politicians who want backstab their country and our identity.

Sure what? You are saying the opposite of what I said and are endorsing the Ramkovist establishment (including UCK Ministers of Gov). That equates to supporting TREASON and Traitors and CLEARLY U are the "DEFEATIST". Anyone with the slightest bit of political intelligence will CLEARLY know that any pre-Ramkovist government is incomparably better than a Ramkovist one.

Lastly, are the following statements yours?

“....I stated that I don’t personally care if the Macedonians had any cultural ties to the ancients. If they do then it’s small...”

“....Look here mymoon I don’t care about the biological connections to the ancients. I gave you objective scholars that stated that the Slavs mixed with the ‘indigenous peoples’ of the Balkans....”

“....Which Government official stated that we have a biological relationship with the ancient Macedonians by the way?.....”

“...Actually readers I am a mod for Maknews.com....”

It sure is.

This is ANTI-MACEDONIAN propaganda and you are an idiot if you believe these insidious conjectures of "objective scholars" and slavoman ideologists.

And while you're at it why not post the entire dialogue

Firstly, I was not 100% sure it was you and secondly, the title (a play on your posting id) was a bit crude and it may have been misunderstood by some if I posted it here. If anyone is really interested to know the source of any public Internet info, they can use Google to easily find out.

Lastly, there was another point or two you easily conceded to the Greko-Bulgar anti-Macedonian front (The way I see it, they put a bit of pressure on you and you instantly pulled your panties down and bent over.)
TM/Jondow: "... Whatever the genetics of these peoples I am sure we are all carrying Slav blood considering the evidence...."

“....As for Samoil's kingdom, no one denys that it was called Bulgarian....”

“.....As I said earlier no one doubts that Tsar Samoil's kingdom was called Bulgarian.....”

FYI: Macedonians do and should doubt it! You are an IGNORANT FOOL for agreeing with UNFOUNDED conjectures and anti-Macedonian propaganda. What is the SOLID evidence that Samoil's Kingdom/Empire called itself what you are alluding to?