Macedonian Truth Forum   

Go Back   Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian History

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-22-2008, 03:41 PM   #21
Delodephius
Member
 
Delodephius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Petrovecz Baciensis, Res Publica Iazygia
Posts: 736
Delodephius is on a distinguished road
Default

SoM, just a question, what was Marko's last name?
__________________
अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.
Delodephius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2008, 05:07 PM   #22
Soldier of Macedon
Administrator
 
Soldier of Macedon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Outpost
Posts: 12,433
Soldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond repute
Default

The proper family name is Mrnjavcev (Mrnyavchev) - To which Macedonians would add the an 'i' or 'tsi' as a suffix, and in Serbian the regular 'ic' or 'ici' suffix. I am not sure where it is evidenced, contemporary or otherwise, is there an inscription or document from his era that indicates the name?

When I am in Macedonia next year I will be making it a priority to visit the churches in Skopje, Prilep, Ohrid, etc, to view the monasteries where there may be frescoes of King Marko, perhaps they will be able to reveal some more information with regard to his family name.

I understand that often his family's background is claimed to be originally from Bosnia, do we have anything to corroborate this? I used to go to school with a Bosnian kid called Uglesa (The name of King Marko's uncle) and a Serbian friend told me that such names are not common in Serbia as they are in Bosnia, so I assume this is quite possible.
__________________
In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a full blooded Macedonian.
Soldier of Macedon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2008, 05:52 PM   #23
Delodephius
Member
 
Delodephius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Petrovecz Baciensis, Res Publica Iazygia
Posts: 736
Delodephius is on a distinguished road
Default

The tribe of Mrnjava is from Herzegovina hence Mrnjavčevići. Mrnjava was Marko's paternal grandfather from Blagaj in Livno on the Neretva river in Herzegovina. His mother, Jevrosima in Serbian or Jelena in Macedonian folklore was the sister of a Serbian lord Momčilo. As far as I know.
__________________
अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

Last edited by Delodephius; 12-22-2008 at 06:06 PM.
Delodephius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2008, 06:59 PM   #24
Soldier of Macedon
Administrator
 
Soldier of Macedon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Outpost
Posts: 12,433
Soldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
The tribe of Mrnjava is from Herzegovina hence Mrnjavčevići. Mrnjava was Marko's paternal grandfather from Blagaj in Livno on the Neretva river in Herzegovina. His mother, Jevrosima in Serbian or Jelena in Macedonian folklore was the sister of a Serbian lord Momčilo. As far as I know.
Intersting information Slovak, I would really like to know what sources are used to determine this version of events. Are there any 14th or 15th century documents?

I have a few sources and literature on Marko, I will share later.
__________________
In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a full blooded Macedonian.
Soldier of Macedon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2008, 07:08 PM   #25
Delodephius
Member
 
Delodephius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Petrovecz Baciensis, Res Publica Iazygia
Posts: 736
Delodephius is on a distinguished road
Default

That's just my schoolbook knowledge. I was never interested in that part of history and I never checked so I don't know the sources. I do know that there aren't virtually any historical records that speak of Kraljević Marko and many if not most historians consider him a mythical figure as well as many other folklore characters from that time. All that is known about him is mostly folklore with hundreds of versions from Dubrovnik to Tsarigrad.
__________________
अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.
Delodephius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2008, 07:17 PM   #26
Soldier of Macedon
Administrator
 
Soldier of Macedon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Outpost
Posts: 12,433
Soldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
That's just my schoolbook knowledge. I was never interested in that part of history and I never checked so I don't know the sources. I do know that there aren't virtually any historical records that speak of Kraljević Marko and many if not most historians consider him a mythical figure as well as many other folklore characters from that time. All that is known about him is mostly folklore with hundreds of versions from Dubrovnik to Tsarigrad.
You're correct Slovak, it still amazes me that his legend was known in all the Balkans rather than just Macedonia and Serbia, he really must have been a man of the people, for the people.
__________________
In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a full blooded Macedonian.
Soldier of Macedon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2008, 04:14 AM   #27
Soldier of Macedon
Administrator
 
Soldier of Macedon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Outpost
Posts: 12,433
Soldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond repute
Default

John Musachi, 16th century
http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts16-18/AH1515.html

Below is a source written over a century after King Marko's death, in the year 1515. It is by the Albanian writer John Musachi, who, despite providing some historical value in relation to the Albanian people and language, is full of errors and inconsistencies where it concerns important historical events in the region. Initially, Musachi refers to Marko as the King of 'Bulgaria', while Lazar is the Despot of 'Serbia'.
Quote:
When Murad the Second took power, he seized Serbia and Bulgaria in a huge onslaught. Lazar, the Despot of Serbia, and King Marko of Bulgaria and Theodore Musachi, the second-born of our family, and the other Lords of Albania united and set off for battle, which the Christians lost. It was there that the above mentioned Theodore, who had a large band of Albanians with him, was slain. The said Lazar of Serbia was taken prisoner and later slain. Now began a period of continuous warfare with the Turks in Albania, in which many lords and gentlemen gave their lives.
The above event is surely in reference to the Battle of Kosovo in the year 1389, but the events and apparent participation of the abovementioned persons is largely fabricated. King Marko did not take part in the Battle of Kosovo, this is a fact, he was at this time a vassal of the Ottomans, and there is no record of King Marko having seen action on either side during that event. Furthermore, Musachi's version seems to indicate an 'ethnic' Albanian participation which appears to be lacking in the historical memory of the Albanian people and other records pertaining to that event.
Quote:
I would also like to inform you that Vlora and the town of Canina (Kanina) with all their estates were part of our dynasty in ancient times and belong to you. If anyone should oppose you, asserting that they were ruled by Mark, King of Serbia, reply that this is true, but only in the following manner.................
In the above passage Musachi contradicts himself and calls Marko the King of 'Serbia', rather than 'Bulgaria'. It is a fact that Marko was never the King of 'Serbia', as King Tvrtko of Bosnia eventually assumed that title as he was strengthening his ties with Despot Lazar. In reference to Marko's father King Volkasin, he is attributed the title of King of 'Serbia' and 'Bulgaria', another complete falsity.
Quote:
This second Lord Andrew, who captured the said King Vukashin, King of Serbia and Bulgaria, was married to the daughter of Lord Paul Sevastocrator.
The 'Bulgaria' that Musachi refers to, in the spirit of East Roman terminology of the former 'themes' in SE Europe, roughly extends from Ohrid to Odrin (Adrianople), one then must ask, what of the real Bulgaria in Moesia bordering the river Danube, what of their name, or their rulers? Their state at the time was referred to as the Bulgarian Empire or the Wallacho-Bulgarian Empire, and Ivan Shishman ruled until 1395, yet he is completely ommitted from the text.

The one thing that may be considered as value with regard to this topic as a whole coming from Musachi is that King Marko is mentioned at all.
__________________
In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a full blooded Macedonian.
Soldier of Macedon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2008, 04:44 AM   #28
Sarafot
Member
 
Sarafot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Celje/Виница
Posts: 620
Sarafot is on a distinguished road
Default

Why Serbs are useing VUKAŠIN,no sence in the word,while in Macedonian it is VOLKASIN,sin na volk-son of the volf?What do you think?
Sarafot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2008, 04:56 AM   #29
Soldier of Macedon
Administrator
 
Soldier of Macedon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Outpost
Posts: 12,433
Soldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarafot View Post
Why Serbs are useing VUKAŠIN,no sence in the word,while in Macedonian it is VOLKASIN,sin na volk-son of the volf?What do you think?
I think the correct way is Volkasin, meaning 'son of wolf', Volkashin may be a dialectal or fancy way of saying it. To be sure, 'Volk' is older than the variant of 'Vuk', as 'Jabolko' is older than the variant 'Jabuka', etc.

Slovak may know the answer to this, when exactly did this sound change take place in the Illyrian (Sr, Cr, Mn, Bs) areas of the Balkans, before or after the 14th century?
__________________
In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a full blooded Macedonian.
Soldier of Macedon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2008, 09:21 AM   #30
Delodephius
Member
 
Delodephius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Petrovecz Baciensis, Res Publica Iazygia
Posts: 736
Delodephius is on a distinguished road
Default

Never. It happened only one part of it, the northern and western part. They still say "volk" or "vulk" in most of Serbia. However the newer pronunciation entered the literary language, but it was debated which form should be accepted. This newer form exists only in Serbo-Croatian. All other Slavic languages have retained the older form. Western Slavic languages retained the oldest Slavic form without the vowel: "vlk", "jablko", "vlna", etc. The oldest IE form reamains in Sanskrit "vrk".
__________________
अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

Last edited by Delodephius; 12-23-2008 at 05:04 PM.
Delodephius is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump