Is it just me or...

[MKD Hockey]

It is easier to go and sit in a well build nest, but it is hard to build our own nest. Our country is some 20 years independent, we have to work, work, work, work, work...but unfortunately this is not a macedonian attitude, we want it fixed, now and if possible by someone else to not make our own hands dirty.

If you wanna go, go. If you stay, work.

[Volokin]

We are a country that has a defeatist mindset at the moment, that is clear.

Some things are out of the Macedonian people's hands though, like the spread of the Albanians. No one gives a fuck until it reaches their selo and then they'll get pissed off and wonder what went wrong. At that point it is already to late, things have to change radically now, or we'll face the consequences in 20 or so years.

[Alex_MK]

Why do they want to go west?

I live in Australia, I cant see how there negative attitudes could make a positive contribution here.

If they cant do anything for themselves in the republic, I dont expect them to be anything but useless here.

Kinda like how your parents left for "greener pastures" in Australia because they probably couldn't make it in the Republic?

[Redsun]

You are correct, but the truth is all young people I've been speaking too in Macedonia are planning or want to leave the country.
Just go on the biggest macedonian forum "kajgana" and the biggest topics are about leaving and how to leave the country.
The youth is totally disinterested in anything else and too be honest are more "westernized" then myself and many others that lived in a western country all our lives.

"westernized"

Whats forms of westernization are there?

How are the youth westernized, through the media/internet?

I would like to know... Why do they "allow" themselves to be westernized?

As for this number of youth that share this common goal. What do you mean by "youth" whats the age range, 18 to 25?

How significant is this group? What percentage of the youth share this western fantasy?

What is the most common destination? America?

Why must they ask these questions on an internet forum? Why cant they just simply call their diaspoa cousins and ask them for advice or help, maybe even a loan.

I cant help but think to myself this group may have no family connection to anyone in a western country otherwise they would have a clear idea and knowledge on how to achieve their goal.

This youth group is out of touch from reality.

Who has mislead them?

What do they expect once they have reached western land? What do they think is going to happen.

[Redsun]

These conversations are meaningless and repetitive unless we take a direction.

What is the point of all this?

What does it all come down to?

The "attitude" of the youth in the republic?

So you want to go west do you..?

How will your negative attitude assist you in the west?


And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.
—John F. Kennedy, inauguration address, January 1961.


Read this quote again and again and again until you understand it. A hundred times if you must.

Your attitude is the complete opposite isn't it?

Can you relate to this quote in anyway? No?

If Mr.Kennedy was here today, do you think he would be pleased to accept your negative attitude into his country?

What can you do for his country that you couldn't do for your own?

If you cant do anything for your country what can you possibly do for America?

http://www.jfklibrary.org/~/media/assets/Education%20and%20Public%20Programs/Education/Lesson%20Plans/Ask%20not%20what%20your%20country%20can%20do%20for%20you.pdf

John F. Kennedy’s inaugural address inspired children and adults to see the importance of civic action and public service. His historic words, “Ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country,” challenged every American to contribute in some way to the public good.


...His words challenged every American to "contribute" in some way to the "public good".


For the following. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inaugur...ohn_F._Kennedy


Rhetorical elements

The main focus of the speech can crudely be boiled down to one theme – the relationship between duty and power. [39] This is emphasized by Kennedy's strong use of juxtaposition in the first part of the speech. For example, he states in the second passage, "...Man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life," a clear calling-out of not only America, but also other nations of power for skewed Cold War priorities. He again employs the strategy in the fifth passage when he says, "United there is little we cannot do in a host of cooperative adventures. Divided there is little we can do," again appealing to the idea of refocusing of international values. [40]

One of the main components of classical rhetoric, to prepon (the appropriate), is also extremely prevalent in this address.[41] Recognizing the fear and anxiety prevalent in the American people since the start of the Cold War, Kennedy geared his speech to have an optimistic and even idealistic tone as a means of providing comfort. He does this by quickly moving the time of the speech into the future, and invokes repetition of the phrase "Let both sides..." to allude to how he plans to deal with strained relations while also appealing to the end goal of international unity. He also phrases negative ideas in a manner so as to present them as opportunities – a challenge, appealing to innately American ideals. A great line to emphasize this is in the fourth from last passage, where he states, "In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger," a simple twist of words that challenges the American public rather than frightening them.

Finally, one cannot discuss John F. Kennedy's inaugural address without mentioning his famous words, "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." This use of chiasmus can be seen even as a thesis statement of his speech – a call to action for the public to do what is right for the greater good.


Did you read that? "the relationship between duty and power".

A call to action for the public to do what is "right" for the "greater good".


Here is a larger section of his speech. http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-View...tFl7SVAjA.aspx


And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.

Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world, ask of us here the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own.


Do you understand the importance of this speech?

Have a good think about it.

(This is not directed at any member here)

[Bij]

Our visit in Aug 14 was the most depressing for me. There is no personal accountability. No drive. No passion.

I was asked multiple times if I had any single young girlfriends to introduce to the guys there so they could be saved. Saved from what? They keep telling me they are siromasi, I told them to go to Africa or thailand and see some of the locals there and then tell me they have it bad.

[Big Bad Sven]

Our visit in Aug 14 was the most depressing for me. There is no personal accountability. No drive. No passion.

I was asked multiple times if I had any single young girlfriends to introduce to the guys there so they could be saved. Saved from what? They keep telling me they are siromasi, I told them to go to Africa or thailand and see some of the locals there and then tell me they have it bad.

LOL

Maybe i cant be too critical of macedonians from the republic while sitting in my 4 story mansion in australia with my money growing trees in my back yard getting bigger, but i agree with you.

Look at it this way. Macedonia is not the poorest country in europe. The poorest is Moldova, then Ukraine, kosovo and albania.
We have macedonian men going for day trips into albania and even Ukraine to find wives. We have macedonian girls going to Greece to play on the beach in the most popular places in Greece.

My cousins who live in the village/farm even go to serbia or even greece for holiday every year LOL

Things are tough in Macedonia and i feel sorry for them - but they still have more going for them then places like Moldova and Ukraine.

[Big Bad Sven]

This article pretty much sums up the miserable situation in Macedonia, and stupidity of the Macedonian and Greek 'name dispute'.



Macedonians Migrate South for Illegal Tourism Work

For the fifth long summer in a row, the small Greek island of Skiathos is Aleksandar’s second home. It would be a dream destination for many young men. The sun shines brightly and the party never ends. People are always smiling and every problem seems minor.

But Aleksandar did not come to enjoy the beauty of the island. He came to profit from it. His 'summer job' at a car hire company is the way he provides for his wife and child, who has not yet turned two, for the entire year. The price he pays is not seeing them for months on end.

“It’s unbearable to be separated from the family, especially from my daughter, who's being raised without her father,” he says sadly, standing in front of the car rental office in a narrow street in the island’s main town, also called Skiathos.

Aleksandar, 30, is one of many Macedonians who leave their home country behind to work illegally in the Greek tourist industry from May to October. (Like all Macedonians quoted only by their first name in this story, he has been given a pseudonym to protect his identity because he works illegally.)

These jobs used to be the domain of students and other young people looking to have fun by the sea and earn some cash. But now many others head south for summer work too.

Macedonia’s official statistics explain why. The unemployment rate is around 28 per cent, among the highest in Europe.

The average net monthly salary is around 340 euros. About 270,000 people, almost half of all those receiving a salary, earn less than 200 euros per month.

Magnet for tourists and workers

Macedonians make up just a fraction of the foreign labour force that helps support Greece’s tourist industry, a sector that has remained healthy in the midst of the country's deep economic crisis.

Nestled in the Aegean Sea, the small island of Skiathos fills up every summer with tourists attracted by dozens of beaches, a verdant landscape and picturesque streets of white-walled houses with blue shutters. The island was the setting for some scenes in the Hollywood musical Mamma Mia!

More than 119,000 foreign visitors landed on Skiathos by plane alone during the summer of last year, joined by countless others who arrived by ferry. On an island with a regular population of around 6,000, there is high demand for extra workers to help out during the tourist season.

Aleksandar has worked at the same car rental firm every year since he first came to Skiathos. He spends between 10 and 12 hours a day there, with no day off in peak season between June and August. He earns 800 euros a month and has to pay his own living expenses, including accommodation.

His salary is somewhat more than the official minimum wage in Greece of 683 euros - although that is meant to be paid for a 40-hour week. Aleksandar works almost twice as many hours.

But his pay packet is still far better than anything he could get at home.

“I can only dream of earning that much money in Macedonia,” Aleksandar says.

Aleksandar managed to find work in his home city of Skopje only once in the past few years, earning just 170 euros a month at a small company.

Another Macedonian from Skopje, 32-year-old Igor, also works in Skiathos at a car rental firm. This is his seventh year in a row working illegally on the island.

Like many other Macedonians in the Greek tourist industry, Igor and Aleksandar blame their illegal status on poor relations between Athens and Skopje, which are rooted in a decades-old dispute over the use of the name Macedonia.

They believe their employers would not be able to get a work permit for them because the Greek state discriminates against Macedonians.

“It’s not fair,” Igor says angrily, sitting with friends after work.

Experts in Greek labour law, however, say they do not believe Macedonian workers are being singled out when it comes to their employment status.

Macedonians are working illegally in the tourist industry because, they say, getting a work permit for any worker from outside the European Union is such a long, bureaucratic process that employers generally do not even attempt it.

But it is not hard to see why Macedonian workers believe they are being discriminated against.

Long-term tensions

Greece and Macedonia have been at loggerheads ever since the latter voted to leave Yugoslavia in 1991. As a region of northern Greece is called Macedonia, Athens argues that Skopje’s use of the name implies a claim on its territory.

Greeks are also angry that Skopje lays claim to figures such as Philip of Macedon and Alexander the Great, historically considered part of Greek culture.

The dispute reached its height in 2008 when Greece effectively blocked Macedonian membership of NATO. Greece has also said Macedonia cannot join the EU until the issue has been resolved.

Macedonians who travel to Greece encounter practical consequences of this standoff. Greek border police scan Macedonians' passports but do not stamp them, as the documents are not officially recognised by Athens. Instead, the police stamp a form with the passport holder’s personal details.

Ordinary Macedonians also experience first hand how sensitive Greeks can be about the name Macedonia and the Macedonian language.

“We were forbidden from speaking in our language in front of our manager and told we should say we come from Skopje, not Macedonia,” says Elena, a 24-year-old from the small town Makedonski Brod, recalling her first day as a disco promoter on the island of Mykonos.

“Once the manager heard us talking in Macedonian. He was very angry and started yelling at us. We’ve been careful since then," she says, sitting in a beach cafe on the island one day in June.

But the Association of Greek Tourism Enterprises (SETE) says Macedonians are in the same legal position as any other non-EU workers. And experts say they have seen no evidence that the broader tensions between Athens and Skopje are the reason Macedonians end up working illegally in the tourist sector.

"Most foreign workers work illegally in Greece... because it's difficult to get a work permit," says Costas Papadimitriou, an associate professor of law at the University of Athens.

Under the official system, Papadimitriou explains, an employer must formally invite a worker to take up employment and file an application for a work permit with the Ministry of the Interior - a process that can drag on for months.

"Many employers don't... want to follow it because it's bureaucratic. So they prefer to employ them (non-EU workers) illegally," he says.

Zoran Kocovski, the owner of Kouzon, a Macedonian recruitment agency for short-term employment abroad, says it was once relatively easy for Macedonians to work legally in Greece.

But after Greece's economic crisis began in 2010, he says, the authorities made it harder to obtain permits and encouraged Greeks to take jobs once done by foreigners.

Kocovski says the two governments could strike a deal to legalise Macedonians working in Greece even without resolving their larger differences.

“Regardless of the name dispute, Macedonian authorities could sign a bilateral agreement on workforce migration with Greece,” he says.

Bulgarian passport is big bonus

In the absence of such an agreement, Macedonians look on with envy at compatriots who have acquired European Union passports.

Darko, a 41-year-old from Skopje who works at the reception desk of a five-star hotel, worked illegally on Skiathos for three years. But things changed for him after he got a Bulgarian passport.

In recent years, Macedonians have been able to get Bulgarian passports relatively easily by claiming Bulgarian ancestry. But many Macedonians regard this option as unpatriotic, even though it would give them EU citizenship.

Now everything is provided for Darko during the five months or more that he works on Skiathos every year - an apartment, social and health insurance, and a higher wage than seasonal workers with Macedonian passports. He works eight hours a day and earns 1,400 euros per month.

“I feel sorry for all the Macedonians who work in Greece and can’t get benefits,” Darko says.

As a worker from an EU country, Darko enjoys other advantages even after the summer is over. If he has worked more than a certain number of days, he receives unemployment benefit for the rest of the year.

Several employers on Skiathos declined to talk about hiring Macedonian workers. But Kusios Christos, who owns a restaurant, hotel and supermarket, says businesses don't just hire illegal foreign workers to keep costs down. Holiday spots simply need all the help they can get in high season, he says.

“Tourist destinations can always benefit from an extra hand,” he says, sitting in his restaurant, which has its own swimming pool and tennis court.

Christos, who has been in business for more than 20 years, jokes that he was responsible for so many Macedonians working on the island as he lived in Skopje for a while and encouraged people to come to Skiathos.

Christos says he has hired Macedonians in the past, when the penalties for employing illegal workers were relatively mild. But, he says, the stakes are now too high. Macedonians still work in his restaurant, but only those with passports from EU member states, usually Bulgaria.

“The Greek law for seasonal workers is very strict for those coming from outside the EU to work in Greece and this does not apply only to Macedonians, but also to all the rest,” says Christos, chatting in fluent Macedonian.

Greek employers risk high fines if they are caught employing someone illegally. The workers themselves risk the possibility of a fine, detention and deportation.

Heading home

For the Macedonian seasonal workers, however, the risks are worth taking.

They know they earn far more than they could at home. While they work long hours without the rights and benefits enjoyed by Greeks and other EU citizens, their conditions are still far better than those faced by other migrants in Greece, such as those working in agriculture.

The Macedonian workers enter Greece as tourists but then stay longer than the 90-day limit allowed under EU rules. This means they face one more risk when they head home - crossing the border illegally, which costs up to 300 euros to arrange.

A 34-year-old man from Skopje, who has worked for eight years as a DJ on Skiathos, says that one year he had an arrangement with a retired police officer to help him cross the border. But the man’s friends in the border police were not on duty that day to wave him through so they had to find another solution.

“We climbed up the mountain near the Macedonian border... I was with a Macedonian girl. We thought we were going to cross the border in a car. But the man who was organising things came with a tractor. That was our vehicle,” he says.

“We went over the mountain while it was raining - wet but happy to be back in our home country,” he says.

Another time, he says, he was hidden in a truck with three friends. Once he crossed the border on foot without being observed by the border police.

Another Skopje man, Zoran, who has spent nine summers working at a disco on Mykonos, says he once crossed the border hidden in the boot of a car with two other people. Each of them paid 250 euros.

“A girl who was with me in the boot began to panic and wanted to get out of the car while we were crossing the border. I had to calm her down. The boot was so small for the three of us, and there wasn’t enough air. Luckily there were no queues at the border and we passed straight through,” he says.


Aleksandar, the car rental office worker, has previously crossed the border on foot and hidden in a truck. This year may require a different method. But this will not bother him. He will just be happy to be returning to his family at last.

“I’ll be home for my daughter’s birthday and I’ll make up for the lost time somehow,” Aleksandar says.

But the following May, he will pack his bags again and head back to Skiathos.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonians-migrate-south-for-illegal-tourism-work

LOL at the Grkoman business owner magically being able to speak macedonian perfectly......

[makedonche]

BBS
Someone needs to tell them that if opportunity isn't knocking, then they need to build a new door!........back to my 5 storey palace with the money trees growing (just need to prune a few million off)

[Amphipolis]

Someone needs to tell them that if opportunity isn't knocking, then they need to build a new door!

And what's that supposed to mean? That's a despicable comment especially right after reading the extended and sad article of post#24.

[George S.]

Are you feeling sorry gor your politi cians after all they have done to greece.FOr shame.

[makedonche]

And what's that supposed to mean? That's a despicable comment especially right after reading the extended and sad article of post#24.

Amphipolis
It astounds me you actually have to ask what it means! In order to bring you up to the rest of the educated world, it a actually means "if there are no opportunities then you need to create opportunities"! Now if you consider that to be 'despicable' then I suggest you go and get your dumb Greek head read by a aptly qualified mental specialist!