International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[GStojanov]

Risto,

I do disagree Macedonia entering NATO and/or EU under the provisional reference.

But the question is what to do instead.

Why don't we do this: can you tell me what would you do instead, and I will play devil's (Greece's that is) advocate?

Lets air some ideas... maybe we can some up with something better.

[Voltron]

Risto,

I do disagree Macedonia entering NATO and/or EU under the provisional reference.

But the question is what to do instead.

Why don't we do this: can you tell me what would you do instead, and I will play devil's (Greece's that is) advocate?

Lets air some ideas... maybe we can some up with something better.

The only way forward is for both sides to acknowledge each others POV and merge them both into one. There are a lot of ways this can be done. Just a matter of letting go nationalistic positions.

Language in this case is the only division between the two sides. Everything else is workable.

[Ljubanec]

The only way forward is for both sides to acknowledge each others POV and merge them both into one. There are a lot of ways this can be done. Just a matter of letting go nationalistic positions.

Language in this case is the only division between the two sides. Everything else is workable.

What are you saying? What do you mean that "Language in this case is the only division between two sides"?

The only way forward is for Greece to stop being so arrogant. Greece does not dictate to other countries how they Identify. No country has ever done so. If you want to Identify us that would make you feel important, go ahead.

[Voltron]

What are you saying? What do you mean that "Language in this case is the only division between two sides"?

The only way forward is for Greece to stop being so arrogant. Greece does not dictate to other countries how they Identify. No country has ever done so. If you want to Identify us that would make you feel important, go ahead.

When I mean language I mean two things.
First, hostile rhetoric from both sides, espescially diaspora.
Second, The fact that Macedonian is a Slav based language.
If we spoke Macedonian or you Greek, this issue wouldnt exist.
It might take some time, but I think at the end both countries will work it out and become strong allies in the region.

[Daskalot]

What are you saying? What do you mean that "Language in this case is the only division between two sides"?

The only way forward is for Greece to stop being so arrogant. Greece does not dictate to other countries how they Identify. No country has ever done so. If you want to Identify us that would make you feel important, go ahead.

I think that Voltron in a subtle way is telling us that Greeks are also Macedonians and the only thing differentiating them from us is the languages that we speak. If he is suggesting this then he will soon be banned, please clarify Voltron.

[Voltron]

I think that Voltron in a subtle way is telling us that Greeks are also Macedonians and the only thing differentiating them from us is the languages that we speak. If he is suggesting this then he will soon be banned, please clarify Voltron.

No, thats not what I said. I clearly said Greeks. I will refrain from posting on these topics.

[GStojanov]

When I mean language I mean two things.
First, hostile rhetoric from both sides, espescially diaspora.

That is true.

Second, The fact that Macedonian is a Slav based language.
If we spoke Macedonian or you Greek, this issue wouldnt exist.

That is not a problem. Many Macedonians on this forum do not speak Macedonian at all. English is their first language.

If you meant that we are now a bilingual nation (since many Macedonians in Greece do not any longer speak Macedonian), that is also not a problem. Scots have all but 3% abandoned their old Gaelic language, which does not make them less Scotish.

[Voltron]

That is not a problem. Many Macedonians on this forum do not speak Macedonian at all. English is their first language.

If you meant that we are now a bilingual nation (since many Macedonians in Greece do not any longer speak Macedonian), that is also not a problem. Scots have all but 3% abandoned their old Gaelic language, which does not make them less Scotish.

Im trying to think how to respond without offending anyone.
In anycase I dont want to derail this thread regarding the ICJ case.
When this issue which is stictly political ceases to exist relations will skyrocket. There is a lot of politcal baggage that many ppl forget or turn a blind eye to. This is not something that happened over night, nor does Greece have nothing better to do than tell people what to name themselves.

I believe in individual freedom, and you will never hear from me telling someone what they are or are not. Anyway, no offense.

[Vangelovski]

Risto,

I do disagree Macedonia entering NATO and/or EU under the provisional reference.

But the question is what to do instead.

Why don't we do this: can you tell me what would you do instead, and I will play devil's (Greece's that is) advocate?

Lets air some ideas... maybe we can some up with something better.

What to do next??? Seeing as we are NOT a NATO member, the onus of proof is on NATO advocates. What are the benefits of NATO? Noone has been able to provide any serious evidence-based benefits of joining NATO. The most anyone has done is some gut-feeling about being 'better off' and 'everyone else is joining up'.

Further, your claim that you do not support NATO membership under FYROM is demonstrated as false by your following uninformed apologetical question of 'what next'.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Voltron, it is a matter of reality - there are people today that identify themselves, their language, state and culture as Macedonian. Nothing that Greece thinks it can do will change that fact. So why beat a dead horse? Greece needs to cease their childish objections, we do not have to agree on the historical side of things to come to a consenus, because this is not only an issue of individual rights, but of human and national rights too.

Call yourselves whatever you like on a regional level, but on a ethno-national level, we are the Macedonians, and you are the Greeks.

[makedonche]

I don't think that is what he was saying. He was saying what Gruevski says about Macedonia meaning different things to different people and that the Macedonians do not want to monopolise the name.

I would like to see Turks calling themselves Greeks and using a similar arguments about definitions of "Greeks".

It is a dead end street and of no use to Macedonians.

But it is astounding that the myth of Greece having a province called Macedonia is not challenged. We see it every day in news reports yet know it is factually incorrect. Yet "Macedonia's finest" goes into court and lies. Perhaps if they did some more research they might even have a reason to fight for our identity instead of against it.

RTG
By virtue of not challenging this "so recently named province" isn't that speaking volumes by default? As is becomming more and more essential we need to stand up more assertively for our rights, that being the case, stand up and question this so called province/ when it was named/why it was named/who named it - challenge all these presumptions to the point of exposing outright lies and deciet - rather than not objecting to it's use and giving the appearance of complicity.

[Risto the Great]

Truthfully GS, I think your heart says no to FYROM but your brain accepts it.
I am not going to point the finger at you for this. You are like one million other Macedonians on the matter I suspect.

Vangelovski makes a point regarding NATO and the onus of justifying membership resting with pro FYROM membership Macedonians. EU membership is the same argument and I have spent some time de-constructing the merits of EU membership.

If you are going to play Greece in a game of devil's advocate, my question is as follows:

Will war begin if Macedonia, as a sovereign nation, insists on maintaining its identity and calling itself Macedonian? What will the worst consequences be if Macedonia says it wants to be called Macedonia from now on?

[Risto the Great]

Just to make it clear. There is no province in Greece called "Macedonia". There are 3 provinces/peripheries that use the word Macedonia along with an additional descriptor. There is no room for the confusion that people keep lying about.

[makedonche]

Just to make it clear. There is no province in Greece called "Macedonia". There are 3 provinces/peripheries that use the word Macedonia along with an additional descriptor. There is no room for the confusion that people keep lying about.

RTG
Wouldn't it be a perfect opportunity to make this statement at the Hague and have it recorded for posterity!

[Vangelovski]

Although some of the facts surrounding "Greece's" province have merit, we should not let that detract from this idiotic case that is being pursued at the ICJ, and that is asking an international court with no legitimate jurisdiction on matters of fundamental national sovereignty to enforce an Accord which stipulates we must use the name FYROM.