"The Lost Writings Of The Ancient Macedonians"

[Sweet Sixteen]

Hey guys update on this. I've talked to Aleksandar Donski and he said that while the collection has been purchased, the Macedonian historians are merely mentioned in passing by other historians. Furthermore, the works are mostly fragments. I've obtained the writings of the historians mentioning the 16 Macedonians, but some still remain undeciphered. If anyone knows someone knowledgeable in Koine, Attic, we can perhaps works on translating one in particular. The parts talking about Marcia from Pella, who is credited as having written "the first patriotic history in Europe", is still not translated, and the comments (presumably Felix Jacoby's) are still in German. If anyone wants to help out in this, please PM me.

It's hard to believe there are fragments that are not published yet. I can help with translation of Greek or finding an expert (if I can't do it myself) or finding where it has already been published.

I bet this material can already be found online. Here's a fragment by Marsyas and other material about him

Μακεδών ὁ Διός καὶ Αἰθρίας [sic] κατασχών τὴν χώραν οὖσαν τῆς Θράκης αφ΄ἑαυτοῦ Μακεδονίαν προσηγόρευσεν. Γῆμας δὲ μία των ἐγχωρίων τεκνοῦται δύο παίδας Πίερον καὶ Ἄμαθον ἀφ΄ὦν δύο πόλεις [sic] Πιερία καὶ Ἀμαθία ἐν Μακεδονίᾳ. Ἡ ἱστορία παρὰ Μαρσύᾳ.

(Schol. Hom. Il. XIV,226)

i.e.

Macedon, son of Zeus and Aethria occupied a land of Thrace that he called Macedonia after himself. Taking one local woman he had two sons, Pieros and Amathos, of whom the two cities Pieria and Amathia in Macedonia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsyas_of_Pella.

http://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/tag/%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%B4%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1/

[Sweet Sixteen]

I will also provide the... correct spelling (in Latin and Greek) of the 10 names mentioned in post#1 (" Marcia from Pela, Kriton of Pieria, Anhang the Macedonian, Antigon the Macedonian, Antioch the Aegean, Antipater the Macedonian, Marcia from Philipi, Phillip from Amphipole, Pole the Aegean, Ptolomy the son of Lag, and others") so we can... google them and concetrate all available information. I will be adding it at this post.

1. Marsyas of Pella, Μαρσύας Πελλαῖος

2. Criton of Pieria, Κρίτων Πιεριώτης or Κρίτων Πιερ(ι)εύς

3. Is that Chinese or something? It's so mispelled that I can't guess.

* Edit: This refers to collective sayings, fragments like "Scholars and elders of Macedonia say...". See also, the discussion in the below posts.

4. There are many people called Antigonus (Αντίγονος) including Macedonians and authors, but I can't find any historian or guess who he means. I have a sense he refers to a king.

*Edit: This Antigonus (Αντίγονος) is an obscure author, mentioned twice who wrote a book about travels in Macedonia.

5. That should probably read Antiochus Aegeus (Αντίοχος Αιγεύς) but I can't find any such person known by this name (historian or not) or guess who he means. I have a sense he also refers to a king.

*Edit: Such a name is not in the list of the collection, simply an Antiochus, but there's no info in the available fragment.

6. That refers to the famous King Antipater who wrote Περδίκκου πράξεις Ιλλυριακαί

7. Marsyas of Philippi or Marsyas the Younger, Μαρσύας Κριτοφήμου Φιλιππεύς

8. I can't find any Philip from Amphipole, historian or not, or guess who he means.

*Edit: So this is Philip from Amphipolis, Φίλιππος (Αμφιπολίτης) obscure historian mentioned in Suda, wrote about the History of Kos and Rhodes.

9. That doesn't sound like a name or is hugely mispelled. I can't guess what he means.

*Edit: This is Polles Aegeus, Πόλλης Αιγιεύς. He is not Macedonian, he's from Aigai (Aegae or Aegaeae) of Aeolis.

10. That is King Ptolemy I Soter who wrote a history of Alexander that is lost.




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[Chakalarov]

I will also provide the... correct spelling (in Latin and Greek) of the 10 names mentioned in post#1 (" Marcia from Pela, Kriton of Pieria, Anhang the Macedonian, Antigon the Macedonian, Antioch the Aegean, Antipater the Macedonian, Marcia from Philipi, Phillip from Amphipole, Pole the Aegean, Ptolomy the son of Lag, and others") so we can... google them and concetrate all available information. I will be adding it at this post.

1. Marsyas of Pella, Μαρσύας Πελλαῖος

2. Criton of Pieria, Κρίτων Πιεριώτης or Κρίτων Πιερ(ι)εύς

3. Is that Chinese or something? It's so mispelled that I can't guess.

4. There are many people called Antigonus (Αντίγονος) including Macedonians and authors, but I can't find any historian or guess who he means. I have a sense he refers to a king.

5. That should probably read Antiochus Aegeus (Αντίοχος Αιγεύς) but I can't find any such person known by this name (historian or not) or guess who he means. I have a sense he also refers to a king.

6. That refers to the famous King Antipater who wrote Περδίκκου πράξεις Ιλλυριακαί

7. Marsyas of Philippi or Marsyas the Younger, Μαρσύας Κριτοφήμου Φιλιππεύς

8. I can't find any Philip from Amphipole, historian or not, or guess who he means.

9. That doesn't sound like a name or is hugely mispelled. I can't guess what he means.

10. That is King Ptolemy I Soter who wrote a history of Alexander that is lost.




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I will point out some things here. These are obscure, unknown, historians and writers. The collection consists of more than 900 total writers. It's not surprising there are names that not even Greeks took the time to Hellenize, such as Anhang. If you don't believe me, type in Anhang zu Makedonien on Google. And I assure you, there are many more names that have not been Hellenized on the list. The collection, as a whole, itself costs about 1500 euros to obtain.

Secondly, I've been through this before. Yes, those are the proper Greek forms of the names, but the Greek forms are almost assuredly not the real names of many of the after-mentioned people. This is a well-known fact in history, that Greeks Hellenized many foreign names.

I can give you the run-down of the most famous examples again, if you'd like.

[Sweet Sixteen]

... If you don't believe me, type in Anhang zu Makedonien on Google...

OK, this is German and it says Annex/Appendix to Macedonians I, II etc, it's just some fragments referring to Macedonians or found in Macedonia. May it mean anonymus or unknown? It's not a person or the author of the passage, just a given title, numbering of the passage.

So, one less.

See this:

http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/browse/die-fragmente-der-griechischen-historiker-i-iii/alphaRange/Ah%20-%20An/A?s.start=60

By the way, don't pay the money. THIS IS THE FELIX JACOBY COLLECTION (in the link).


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[Chakalarov]

This just shows some excerpts from the passages in questions, which are ironically simply larger excerpts. I was granted full access through my university's database system. Anyway, I am more interested in the other passages. The names were published by the UMD, and I did not have time to cross-check them. I only saw they exist.

[Sweet Sixteen]

This just shows some excerpts from the passages in questions, which are ironically simply larger excerpts. I was granted full access through my university's database system. Anyway, I am more interested in the other passages. The names were published by the UMD, and I did not have time to cross-check them. I only saw they exist.

This is an interesting collection of fragments, and since I read a few of these passages and wandered around, I should also warn you that these are not passages BY these historians, but passages ABOUT them, fragments and passages that mention them.

I don't know if it gives full access or asks for money after they let you see 10 or 20 of them.

[Sweet Sixteen]

Based on the link we found, I have corrected or completed my entries in post#17.

Also, having read more fragments, it's possible that these are fragments of the fragments (like 10 lines only) and not the whole fragments!

[Sweet Sixteen]

See also this (list of ancient Macedonian historians)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Macedonian_historians

[George S.]

m not sure what money donski paid for these manuscripts they were mean't to be from the writers by the writers I didn't know it was someone writing things about the historians.You don't suppose he got duped????If real historians wrote them then youd expect stories about Macedonia & Macedonians.Has donski got the whole thing or just excerpts.Was he sold a pup??Chak can you find out what donski has got it might shed some light?

[Chakalarov]

George,

Donski, to my understanding, did not pay for them. A professor by the name of Maria Kubaiska acquired them. I don't know if she paid though. Yes, there was some misunderstanding about the fragments. Part of it has to do with the fact that Jacoby organized them by which historians are mentioned, not who is actually writing. I became aware of this early on. Nonetheless, many fragments talk about Macedonia, so they are worth looking into.

[George S.]

ok chak has anyone thought of contacting any Macedonian unis ,perhaps there are academics that understand ancient manuscripts in Macedonian.??Can.t donski decipher them?Perhaps someone can look at them in their entirety rather than piecemeal.I don't know if professor belchevski might be able to interpret them there are quite a number of academics im sure donski knows of them.?
Have you tried to ask donski to come onto the mto to anser some of our questions of what he discovered.?

[Sweet Sixteen]

ok chak has anyone thought of contacting any Macedonian unis ,perhaps there are academics that understand ancient manuscripts in Macedonian.??Can.t donski decipher them?Perhaps someone can look at them in their entirety rather than piecemeal.I don't know if professor belchevski might be able to interpret them there are quite a number of academics im sure donski knows of them.?
Have you tried to ask donski to come onto the mto to anser some of our questions of what he discovered.?

George S,

These passages are either in Greek or Latin. Also, they're not unknown; they have been translated, analysed and published and they don't need "decipherment". These are not lost, secret or hidden passages; it’s just a specific collection of texts. E.g. imagine someone concentrating in a book all the historical fragments referring to certain city.

I know small treasures can be found in trash, but Donski shouldn’t expect much. If a fragment had a monumental importance or brought a key message, someone would have noticed it, during all these centuries.

[George S.]

SS donski went as if he got the biggest find,this was going to blow the lid on things.What did he discover that hasn't been discovered??My interest is if something was written in the ancient Macedonian writings??does anyone know then what do the writers say themselves.I don't want a hearsay from greeks or something else.As I said I was looking forward as these were new discoveries from Donski.Also where are the archaeological finds from all the palaces the Macedonian kings had in ROM.Hasn't anything been worthy of comment we are just waiting for the bottom of the barrel.The other thing is did donski get to see the originals or were there copies & if they were in their entirety??
So if they aren't written in ancient Macedonian what possible is it greek or latin instead & your telling us they are simply reporting thins and not much else.I wonder what price was paid for copies of the manuscripts??Did anyone check on the authenticity??

[Sweet Sixteen]

This is relevant and it may help. A full list of ancient Macedonians, alphabetical, chronological and per city or district (plus basic info and sources).

Watch out, this is in English but all names are written in Greek characters, so it might be difficult for some of you to use and understand (but not for Donski). Since the texts are full of names it may give you the impression it is written in Greek.

An excellent and useful source you should save in your PC. Also, I suggest, if you can’t read Greek script, use the Latin index in p. 522

https://helios-eie.ekt.gr/EIE/bitstream/10442/7444/2/A01.026.0.pdf

[*Edit: This link doesn't work. Just google Macedonians abroad: a contribution to the prosopography of ancient macedonia Helios and the second link is this pdf file]

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So, if you search Marsyas of Pella it says

Μαρσύας Περιάνδρου, Πελλαϊος 4th cent. B.C.
Historian, younger brother or nephew of Antigonos Monophthalmus;
wrote Μακεδόνικα in 10 books.
FG//135.
Berve no 489; R. Laqueur, RE XIV (1930) 1995-98 no 8; L. Robert, La Carie II
(Paris 1954) 89-91; Papakonstantinou, Fella 76 no 57; W. Heckel, "Marsyas of Pella,
Historian of Macedon," Hermes 108 (1980) 444-62; Billows, Antigonos 399-400 no 67.

I believe all the references should be available (especially for academics)

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About Marsyas of Philipi

Μαρσύας Κριτοφήμου, Φιλιππεύς Hellenistic period
Historian; wrote 'Αρχαιολογία, Μυθικά, Μακεδόνικα.
FGH 135-136.
R. Laqueur, RE XIV (1930) 1998-99 no 9; Collart, Philippes 183-84 and n. 3; cf. L.
Robert, La Carie II (Paris 1954) 89-91.

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Criton of Pieria

Κρίτων, Πιεριώτης 2nd cent. A.D.
Historian. Author of Σικελικά, Περσικά, Περί της αρχής των
Μακεδόνων, etc.
Suid. s.v. FGH 277.
F. Jacoby, RE XI (1922) 1934-35 no 5; Kanatsoulis, MPS no 1662.

and so on

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If you search "historian" it produces (I think) 13 Macedonians (of which one is not certain).

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[George S.]

If its all treated in a professional way and only professional people can access it.It would be good to read a book.After all it was mean't to negate all the greek claims etc to Macedonia,