Why is there no proactivity from the Macedonians in the Republic, Aegean and Pirin?

[Big Bad Sven]

You are not pro active- you are a crying bitch. I think it's people exactly like you who have made the Macedonians not trust the Diaspora, it's people like you with the double standards who have made the Macedonians in RoM realise they are on their own. You make me sick.
Why don't you stop posting shit and concentrate on the right things to do, making sure your family has bread on the table. Koj gi ebe Makedoncite, neka umirat. Uf gadovi kako tebe kolku me nervirat

Im no crying bitch, im just pointing out the hypocrisy of you early comments about the aegeans, and why you are singling them out for being sell outs when the "other" macedonians are just as bad - diaspora included.

FYI - My family in macedonia has never had to worry about putting food or drinks on the table.

[Big Bad Sven]

Again stop talking shit. The Macedonians who took Bulgarian passports are not slaves they did it because their gov and Diaspora doesn't give a flying fuck to help them. The Egejci are 'victims', slaves whatever not, why don't they raise their voices. It's not the same. I am British by choice, I thought the egejci are not or are they?

If the macedonians in bulgaria with bulgar passports are not slaves, then why do they have to declare that they and their family members, past and present are bulgars? They dont even stand on equal grounds with the real bulgars, and have to submit to their demands just to get a decent job.

If they arent slaves why dont they just declare themselves as macedonians? The answer is because they cant, as they will be treated like outcasts in bulgaria, loose their jobs and place in university. Which is the almost the exact same situation as the aegeans.

You see, the aegeans are in some ways in the same boat as the people who go to bulgaria and declare themselves as bulgars.

Unfortunately our people in Bulgaria, Grease and albania are all in a very difficult situation - which brings us back to the diaspora. Perhaps it is now up to the diaspora to try and help macedonians in these countries to have proper human rights and to be respected as equals, not as slaves who are forced to do things they dont want to just to be able to survive.

[Mastika]

If they arent slaves why dont they just declare themselves as macedonians? The answer is because they cant, as they will be treated like outcasts in bulgaria, loose their jobs and place in university. Which is the almost the exact same situation as the aegeans.

Unfortunately our people in Bulgaria, Grease and albania are all in a very difficult situation - which brings us back to the diaspora. Perhaps it is now up to the diaspora to try and help macedonians in these countries to have proper human rights and to be respected as equals, not as slaves who are forced to do things they dont want to just to be able to survive.

Sadly, you are wrong. If all of the Pirin region were to declare themselves ethnic Macedonia overnight, who would lose their jobs? Somebody still has to run the industries, shops, government, post offices etc. But unfortunately this isn't going to happen because the majority of the people in Pirin have a Bulgarian self-conscioussness. Had Pirin Macedonia been attached to Macedonia it would have probably been an extremely Macedonian, however, it is not. There is probably only up to 30,000 people in Bulgaria who feel Macedonia.

The diaspora cannot be expected to convert people who feel Bulgarian to feel Macedonian. 1. Where is the logic in that? and 2. Isn't that precisely what we Macedonians have been fighting against [forced assimilation]?

[Prolet]

Mastika, Did you know that Dimitrija Berbatov's Grand Father is one of the founders of OMO Ilinden Pirin? There are many Macedonians from Pirinska Makedonija who are still around.

I will post another topic about the Macedonia-Bulgaria relations, apparently the Bulgarians want the 1999 accord that Ljubco Georgievski signed to be implemented aswell as a few other features added in which includes what our kids are taught in schools.

[Volk]

For a strong Diaspora you need long term government strategies and policies that are in the national interest.

This has not existed in Macedonia, if the government has little to no long term direction, how can the diaspora? The diaspora should be an arm of the nation supporting the government is achieving national goals.

The diaspora is not a shadow government.

[Rogi]

The Diaspora should not support the Government. It should instead support the Macedonian Cause and the Macedonian people, so should be the goals of the Macedonian Government and in that way can both collaborate.

The Diaspora should always remain prepared to go against the Macedonian Government, even topple it if necessary, if and when the Macedonian Government acts in contradiction to the Macedonian Cause.

Too strong a relationship With the Government, or acting in a manner that is unconditionally supportive of the Government, diminishes the Diaspora's ability to remain focused on the Cause and indepependent of the Government when needed.

[Risto the Great]

The Diaspora should not support the Government. It should instead support the Macedonian Cause and the Macedonian people, so should be the goals of the Macedonian Government and in that way can both collaborate.

The Diaspora should always remain prepared to go against the Macedonian Government, even topple it if necessary, if and when the Macedonian Government acts in contradiction to the Macedonian Cause.

Too strong a relationship With the Government, or acting in a manner that is unconditionally supportive of the Government, diminishes the Diaspora's ability to remain focused on the Cause and independent of the Government when needed.

Ahhh, music to my ears.

Too strong a relationship With the Government, or acting in a manner that is unconditionally supportive of the Government, diminishes the Diaspora's ability to remain focused on the Cause and independent of the Government when needed

And let me see that statement once again.

[Prolet]

I dont quite agree with that Rogi

I think the Diaspora should work with every democratically elected Government, there is nothing better then having a united Government and Diaspora however the Macedonian Cause needs to be met and the Diaspora should always be pushing the Government to be on the right path. Minority rights for our people world wide is a must, im very worried for our people in Pirinska Makedonija they are hardly being mentioned these days and the Bulgarians are keeping it that way.

[Volk]

Rogi I agree with you, however you may have misinterpreted me.

Who's role is it to craft national strategy? Diasporas? No, only the government has resources to achieve long term goals, diaspora can only help.

It should instead support the Macedonian Cause and the Macedonian people, so should be the goals of the Macedonian Government and in that way can both collaborate.

Agreed, I believe this is what I also said. It all comes down to the government... In a normal society it seeks to work in the national interest but having an SDS government your scenario definition comes to the forefront.

[Rogi]

Prolet, you support the current Government so let's run through a little scenario for you:

Elections are held. A different party comes to power, with a new premier. Let's call this new premier "Mr. B.C". The new Government decides to change the name. So going by what you are suggesting, at this point the Diaspora is still supportive of the Government. Or, if it is not supportive now, it is nonetheless too late, because the Diaspora's prior support has let it come to this scenario - in other words, the Diaspora has in effect become an enabler for the new Government to change the name and contravene the Macedonian Cause.

Now, to push your limits, let's assume there were no elections and Prime Minister Gruevski succumbed to the 'international pressure' and agreed to change the name to 'Northern Macedonia'? All the while, the 'supportive Diaspora' keeps quiet because of this supportive arrangement/agreement (written or unwritten) with the Government?

I could start quoting many, if not all, of history's greatest thinkers to further make my point, but I think you understand it by now.

[Rogi]

Who's role is it to craft national strategy? Diasporas? No, only the government has resources to achieve long term goals, diaspora can only help.

I disagree with this statement.

If it were true, there would not be an independent Republic of Macedonia today; the drive for Macedonia's independence not only did not come from any Government and its' resources, instead it came from the resources (human, financial) of the Macedonian people and specifically those in the Diaspora.


The role of national strategy is that of the people, not the Government. The Government must only obey that strategy. The Diaspora, which is independent of all the politics in and out of Macedonia, is in an even stronger position than the Government, because its' only influence is the drive to further and achieve the Macedonian cause and in this regard the Diaspora is and can be a great resource, even more so than the Government in its' current capacity.

[Volk]

Obviously if there is no government then it cannot perform its function.

What do you see the role of the government Rogi if it is not to craft national strategy?

[Rogi]

You have misunderstood. The Government's role is to be an enforcer of the Macedonian Cause (i.e. the national strategy), but not the only one to do so.

What I am therefore saying is that the Government is not at the top, rather the Macedonian Cause is at the top of the national pyramid, or scheme of things.

The Government is only one body, a body of the Macedonian people. An organised Diaspora too is a body of the Macedonian people.

They are very much equal in terms of the Macedonian Cause, the resources they have is irrelevant; naturally the Government which collects taxes will have more financial resources, although an organised Diaspora could have more international influence with well-placed Macedonians around the world and better established networks, and so comparing them in terms of resources is only a matter of timing but is irrelevant in the value to the Cause and comparing them would imply they are competing - instead, both should be solely focused on the Macedonian Cause and work together to achieve it - that unconditional support for the Cause is what should hold everything together, not support for the Government which is, historically proven, easily corruptible and swayed.



It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government. – Thomas Paine (1737-1809)

[Prolet]

Rogi, I agree im simply stating that under normal circumstances it would be great if the Diaspora and Government could unite in their stance especially on such an important issue as the name issue.

Now when dealing with traitors like BC and Lj G that theory goes out the window.

Keep in mind now that the Diaspora becomes part of the Parliament because our people will be entitled to vote. There will be pratenici from the Diaspora in Macedonia.

[Volk]

Rogi, se razbrav me...

This was my point also:

both should be solely focused on the Macedonian Cause and work together to achieve it