Velika Popovska 64 year old woman turned away from Greek border 10th July 2012

[Vangelovski]

Got ya, Phoenix. As I said quite clearly, "forgetting" has to do with balm for the human mind. If you can find where I recommended it singularly for the Macedonians, I will gladly return to my vomit and eat my words.

The only "dispute" between Greece and Macedonia that I know about is the name dispute that refers to the Interim Agreement, and its evolution, so of course I was referring to that. Reading posts on these sites, however, I become aware that there other issues for some people.

Does that answer your question? If not, I will try again with your permission and gracious patience.

And what exactly, in relation to the name and the IA are Macedonians mean't to "forget"?

[Angliski]

Thank you for your kind, thoughtful and most civil words dear Julie. They do make an impression.

There is a German expression that loosely translates as, "the dog's howling tells you that the stone has hit its mark."

[Angliski]

As I said, Vangelovski, " forgetting" is balm for the human, every human, mind. It is the only way to release the demons in the human soul. As to what the Macedonians or the Greeks or anyone else has to forget, that is up to them. The enslavement of dark passions are, like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, a choice not a necessity.

I suspect you will have better luck answering your own questions. You are not looking for answers. Your are looking for monsters under the bed.

[Vangelovski]

As I said, Vangelovski, " forgetting" is balm for the human, every human, mind. It is the only way to release the demons in the human soul. As to what the Macedonians or the Greeks or anyone else has to forget, that is up to them. The enslavement of dark passions are, like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, a choice not a necessity.

I suspect you will have better luck answering your own questions. You are not looking for answers. Your are looking for monsters under the bed.

Angliski, now you're just posting irrelevant, and acid induced, BS about issues you either haven't got the faintest idea about or are attempting to create confusion around. Go find something better to do.

[Angliski]

Does this mean you don't want me to send you a picture of
my dead Greek grandfather ( who thought he was a Scottish Highlander from Inverness, the fool!) in the backward mountain village where we have been marrying our sisters for the last couple of centuries? We took the picture on the iPad but can't figure out how to send it. If any of you can tell me how, I will do so ( come on! You know you wanna see it, and we went to so much trouble to fake the sea and sky).

[Phoenix]

By the way, Phoenix, if I can master the technology on my iPad, I will send you a picture from our house looking out to the blue and turqoise sea of Perfect Greece which migh clam the beast that seems to be raging in your soul.

Of course, it occurs to me that you might think that since they faked the moon landing pictures that they took in a studio in L.A., these pictures migh be photo- shopped, too. "Paranoia" might be a Greek word but it is consumed, wolfed down actually, in the Backward Balkans with relish, and I suspect even when the relish is in short supply.

Prof, the beast of which you speak of raging in my soul, is the all consuming fire of the Phoenix.
Everything about yourself you see in me, but I offer the hope that you've abandoned in your wretched life of lies...I offer an enduring sense of redemption, a rich, universal symbolism that's conveyed with profound subtlety. The sort of subtlety that seems to elude you with less patience, post after post...to reveal a very angry little greek man...

[Vangelovski]

Does this mean you don't want me to send you a picture of
my dead Greek grandfather ( who thought he was a Scottish Highlander from Inverness, the fool!) in the backward mountain village where we have been marrying our sisters for the last couple of centuries? We took the picture on the iPad but can't figure out how to send it. If any of you can tell me how, I will do so ( come on! You know you wanna see it, and we went to so much trouble to fake the sea and sky).

No, we'd much rather listen to rambling nonsense about "forgetting", moving "forward", "soul balm" and "dark passions". But can you smoke another bong before you go on?

P.S. Did you write interpretive dance pieces for the Green Left Weekly during your "career"?

[Phoenix]

No, we'd much rather listen to rambling nonsense about "forgetting", moving "forward", and "soul balm". But can you smoke another bong before you go on?

Is "soul balm" something they smoke in Kenya...?

[Phoenix]

No, we'd much rather listen to rambling nonsense about "forgetting", moving "forward", "soul balm" and "dark passions". But can you smoke another bong before you go on?

P.S. Did you write interpretive dance pieces for the Green Left Weekly during your "career"?

...no doubt after smoking the "soul balm"...

[Vangelovski]

Is "soul balm" something they smoke in Kenya...?

I've heard they smoke it in Greece as a kind of 'mind stimulant' that induces hallucinations involving self-gratuity and in some rare instances, bestiality. Unfortunately, it renders the users incapable of coherent thought for years on end and makes them think they have more money than they actually do. Unfortunate souls.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Apologies for my interruption, however may I make the suggestion to the administrators to create another thread and move the exchange with Angliski and his posts in general to this new thread, it would be a shame to clutter this particularly important and personal thread with a number of off topic posts. Like I said, just a suggestion.

If it helps, maybe the new thread could be titled “Entropy”?

[Perun]

In informal logic and rhetoric, a fallacy is incorrect argumentation in reasoning resulting in a misconception or presumption. By accident or design, fallacies may exploit emotional triggers in the listener or interlocutor, or take advantage of social relationships between people. Fallacious arguments are often structured using rhetorical patterns that obscure any logical argument.

Irrelevant Reason Fallacy: The author's reason has nothing to do with the author's conclusion, but it tends to make the reader want to agree with the conclusion.

Red Herring Fallacy: The author changes the subject to a topic on which the author can more easily score points.

Strawman Fallacy: The author distorts the other side's position, (generally making it more extreme).

Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy: The author is trying to make the reader feel that the author is right because the author cannot be proven wrong.

Illegitimate Appeal to Authority Fallacy: The author is asking the reader to believe something because someone says so, but
1. that person is not really an authority on the matter, or
2. authorities on the matter disagree among themselves, or
3. that person has a vested interest, or
4. that person is known to have been untrustworthy in the past, or
5. I can show that this person does not really know what they are talking about.

Appeal to Popularity Fallacy: The author is trying to make the reader feel that there are lots of people on the author's side, and the fact that these people are on the author's side is irrelevant to the author's conclusion.

Appeal to Traditional Wisdom Fallacy: The author is trying to make the reader feel that the author has tradition on the author's side.

Complex Question Fallacy: The author is asking a question about one thing, and sneaking in an assumption about something else.

Begging the Question Fallacy: The author is assuming what the author is supposed to be proving.

Ad Hominem Fallacy: The author is attacking the people on the other side of the issue, and this attack is irrelevant to the author's conclusion.

Good Intentions Fallacy: The author is making the reader feel favorably disposed to the author or to the people on the author's side, in an irrelevant way.

Golden Mean Fallacy: The author is making the reader feel that the author's position is a compromise between more extreme positions, when this is irrelevant to this author's conclusion.

Hasty Generalization Fallacy: The author has not given enough examples to prove that the author's generalization is true.

Post Hoc Fallacy: The author is trying to make the reader believe that one thing caused another thing because it happened before the second thing.

Appeal to Emotion Fallacy: The author is trying to get the reader worked up emotionally about something that is irrelevant to the author's conclusion.

Fallacy of Ambiguity: The author is right in one sense of the word (or phrase), but the author is trying to make the reader think of a different sense of the word (or phrase).

False Dilemma Fallacy: The author implies that there are only two possibilities, but really there is a third possibility.

Non Sequitur Fallacy: The author's reasons are not strong enough to prove the author's conclusion.





Angliski, you cover them all.

@Tomche: Good suggestion.

[Phoenix]

I've heard they smoke it in Greece as a kind of 'mind stimulant' that induces hallucinations involving self-gratuity and in some rare instances, bestiality. Unfortunately, it renders the users incapable of coherent thought for years on end and makes them think they have more money than they actually do. Unfortunate souls.

...I have to do my tax soon, I would have smoked a few joints of that "soul balm", for the extra wealth rush, until you brought up the bit about beastiality...

[Vangelovski]

...I have to do my tax soon, I would have smoked a few joints of that "soul balm", for the extra wealth rush, until you brought up the bit about beastiality...

Its rare, but I felt it my responsibility to make sure you are aware of the risks.

Angliski, stay safe. You might want to practice the 'buddy' system when you smoke the 'soul balm' - someone to look after you while you're on it and make sure you're not abused by wandering goats.

[Rogi]

The only "dispute" between Greece and Macedonia that I know about is the name dispute that refers to the Interim Agreement, and its evolution.

Firstly, I would suggest that devolution is the more appropriate notion.

Secondly, there are precursors which form the basis of the dispute that you were "referring to". You refer to these offhandedly, and quite mistakenly, as "other issues for some people".

Furthermore, you try to relegate what you seemingly do not understand, to simple political squabbling, with "...to the best of my observation, the name dispute with Macedonia has been relegated to diplomatic corridors in the EU and NATO".

Now tell me, is your commentary innocent, albeit uninformed and of no real value?
Or is it purposeful, and to what end or what purpose?

Most will have drawn conclusions already, I'll simplify it nonetheless.

You cannot be uninformed, for you profess to be a man of intellect and one with an active interest in Balkan affairs. For this to be the case, you know of more than the 'name dispute'. This admission would not have served your purpose.

There are a few old chestnuts in your words;
the moral high ground,
the self-righteousness ("I am somewhat taken aback by the vulgarity and searing hatred that I have read"),
the argument of false rationale for the way of the world ("...national injustices...are an inevitable part of tribal and national relationships"),
the philosophical attempts "...forgetting is balm for the human.."

Yes, the cards many have tried to play, yet failed as it unravelled for them too. Perhaps, if it were not for the attempt to try and claim the moral high ground, you could get away with simple ignorance. No, you have indicated purpose and intent.


No Angliski, you are neither ill-informed, nor ignorant. You are here indeed with a purpose, an intent, but it is not the one of moral high ground; while it may be evident for most already, it will be so for all others soon enough.

The problem with taking the moral high ground is not only that it is indeed very high up, the real problem is that you haven't a leg to stand on.

I will provide you with two pieces of unsolicited advice.

Firstly, may I suggest that you refrain from the "...national injustices...are an inevitable part of tribal and national relationships" type of comment. Surely you do not mean to suggest that all those who have committed terrible crimes should be forgiven without judicial recourse, on the basis of their crime being an "inevitable part of tribal and national relationships". There is a reason why those arguments were not used at the Nuremberg Trials.

While I have no further intention for discourse, my second suggestion is that you cease to underestimate and cease in your insults, of the intelligence of the members of this forum and its' wider reader base.

Of course, I realise that adherence to my suggestions would probably require you to restrain yourself from posting whatsoever, though I leave that to you.